Tempted to leave the Church...

[guanophore]

Nobody deserves heaven. Remember, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

We are made worthy by grace, through faith. What priest could possibly have the time to meet with me in their busy schedules?

The one you are supposed to meet with will. If your own parish priest is too busy, you can always ask if there is another priest or individual who provides spiritual direction. I would hope that no priest would be too busy to meet with a parishioner who is having a crisis of faith such as you are!

So you say that Protestants are most likely going to heaven, but as a Catholic I need to secure my salvation? That doesn’t make any sense.

We are not in a position to say who is “likely going to heaven” or not. That is up to God, who is the only one who can read the heart. We all have a responsibility to secure our salvation.

For this very reason, **make every effort **to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,** make every effort to confirm your calling and election.** For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1

We are all called to work out our salvation.

 

[fred_conty]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion. I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)
3. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
4. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The list goes on… I don’t have time to post them all here right now.
Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved… my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic. Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well? If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

It sounds like a breakdown of a spiritual sort. And it might be due to being on this website for too long. It is yenging and yanging you all over the place.

There is a lot of stuff here that you just have to ignore because it is just plain wrong or not explained correctly. And then there are some who just stubbornly hold on to their wrong thinking.

Argumentation tends to cause friction and rattles the nerves.

Sounds like you need to take a break and get some solid spiritual books and enjoy. Your peace will then come back.

Wishing you the best in Christ.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Sometime I will sit down and read them in depth. Work has been busy as of late, as has life.

I see a lot of confusion surrounding my objections concerning the scriptures and the Vatican II documents.

Here is what I see when I read the scriptures. I see Jesus declaring throughout the gospels that we must believe in him for our salvation. I see him say that noone comes to the Father but through him. I see Paul say that there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved. I see the early apostles and martyrs traveling throughout the world preaching the gospel and converting people out of paganism and toward Christ. I see Paul preaching to the Jews in the synagogue and telling them to repent and turn to Christ for their salvation.

Fast forward 2000 years. I read vatican documents stating that it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, that others can be saved as well. I see saints like Teresa of Calcutta saying things like “I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.” I see popes kissing Qurans and in general a condemnation of proselytization, which when you look at the definition is really just seeking to convert people from one faith to another, which, news flash folks, is exactly what the apostles and martyrs did. When I look at modern Catholicism and its view of salvation, I see something that is, if not universalism, something very, very close to it.

In the meantime I see evangelicals (like my dad) going out and actually bringing the gospel to people and guess what, those people are learning faith in Christ Jesus, not just “dialoguing” which we seem to be obsessed with doing today.

I have heard evangelicals criticize Catholicism because it overcomplicates the gospel. In the gospels, Jesus says “follow me” and you just follow him. He says believe in me and you just believe in him. He says love your enemies and you just do that, etc. Evangelicals believe you can just do what Jesus says to do in the gospels and you are enjoying his abundant life. And when evangelicals go out and preach this gospel, people believe, because it’s actually good news. For Catholics, it’s more than just “yes Lord, I believe.” You have to jump through so many hoops. If you are coming to the church and you are already baptized, you have to first show some proof of your baptism. If you or your spouse were previously married, heaven help you… it may take you years to get an annulment. I have coworkers and relatives who have either left the church or are non practicing because of this. You have obligatory fasts, obligatory feast days, obligatory this and obligatory that. If you fail to attend mass for one Sunday, you are in mortal sin. If you eat sausage on a Friday during lent, you are in mortal sin. Follow all these laws and regulations, and you might, just might, have a shot at getting into heaven. Good luck getting around to ever actually doing anything the gospel says a la feed the poor and so on. You have to make sure you aren’t somehow committing some mortal sin in the meantime.

I know that it is great to think that our church comes from Jesus and the apostles, and have the paperwork to prove it. I know. It’s great to think that you can rely on apostolic succession and believe that you are on the right track. This is what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place. But when it comes down to it, when I read the gospel and experience a spiritual rejuvenation, and then go back to church and feel the oppressive weight of a thousand laws, rules and regulations bearing down on me, what am I supposed to think? It’s like when you are little and mom and dad say they love you and leave you with the baby sitter, and the baby sitter sends you to bed without supper for no reason. You start to wonder, is this really what mom and dad wanted?

 

[CompSciGuy]

It sounds like a breakdown of a spiritual sort. And it might be due to being on this website for too long. It is yenging and yanging you all over the place.

There is a lot of stuff here that you just have to ignore because it is just plain wrong or not explained correctly. And then there are some who just stubbornly hold on to their wrong thinking.

Argumentation tends to cause friction and rattles the nerves.

Sounds like you need to take a break and get some solid spiritual books and enjoy. Your peace will then come back.

Wishing you the best in Christ.

I do have to agree with you… the thing is, for every ten nutty posts there is one solid gold one that blows everyone else’s out of the water. There are people who have genuine wisdom and whose insight I value. This is especially true in the Family Life forum. A lot of times when I post there asking people for marriage advice the threads tend to get deleted eventually because it turns into a battle of the sexes and a hate fest… but in the midst of the insanity I will find two or three gentle posts from people who have very healthy marriages and have worked through the conflicts and troubles and have excellent insight to give. Before posting in this forum, I always have to ask myself, is it worth reading through all the garbage to get those few golden posts?

There have been some very good posts in this thread, BTW.
I think perhaps you are right about the break though.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Sometime I will sit down and read them in depth. Work has been busy as of late, as has life.

It really does seem like you have a lot on your plate.

I see a lot of confusion surrounding my objections concerning the scriptures and the Vatican II documents.

Do you mean to say that other people seem confused about your objections?

Here is what I see when I read the scriptures. I see Jesus declaring throughout the gospels that we must believe in him for our salvation. I see him say that noone comes to the Father but through him. I see Paul say that there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved. I see the early apostles and martyrs traveling throughout the world preaching the gospel and converting people out of paganism and toward Christ. I see Paul preaching to the Jews in the synagogue and telling them to repent and turn to Christ for their salvation.

Do you think that other Catholics do not see these same things? Do you realize that the NT was written by Catholics, for Catholics?

Fast forward 2000 years. I read vatican documents stating that it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, that others can be saved as well. I see saints like Teresa of Calcutta saying things like “I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.”

Do you think this somehow contradicts the Scriptures? How do you understand Romans 2:15?

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I see popes kissing Qurans and in general a condemnation of proselytization, which when you look at the definition is really just seeking to convert people from one faith to another, which, news flash folks, is exactly what the apostles and martyrs did. When I look at modern Catholicism and its view of salvation, I see something that is, if not universalism, something very, very close to it.

 In the meantime I see evangelicals (like my dad) going out and actually bringing the gospel to people and guess what, those people are learning faith in Christ Jesus, not just "dialoguing" which we seem to be obsessed with doing today.

What keeps you from doing this?

I have heard evangelicals criticize Catholicism because it overcomplicates the gospel. In the gospels, Jesus says "follow me" and you just follow him. He says believe in me and you just believe in him. He says  love your enemies and  you just do that, etc. Evangelicals believe you can just do what Jesus says to do in the gospels and you are enjoying his abundant life. And when evangelicals go out and preach this gospel, people believe, because it's actually good news.

It seems that you have some notion that Catholics cannot live this way. What keeps you from living your life this way?

For Catholics, it’s more than just “yes Lord, I believe.”

Yes and no. Catholics understand faith that saves is faith that works. So when we say “I believe” it means that one acts upon those beliefs.

You have to jump through so many hoops. If you are coming to the church and you are already baptized, you have to first show some proof of your baptism.

Do you think we should just ignore the teachign of the Apostles that there is only one baptism for the forgiveness of sins?

• I. ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS

>977 Our Lord tied the forgiveness of sins to faith and Baptism: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved."521 Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that "we too might walk in newness of life."522

 

[guanophore]

If you or your spouse were previously married, heaven help you… it may take you years to get an annulment. I have coworkers and relatives who have either left the church or are non practicing because of this.

Do you think we should ignore Jesus teaching that God hates divorce, and that if one divorces and marries another it is adultery? :bigyikes:

You have obligatory fasts, obligatory feast days, obligatory this and obligatory that. If you fail to attend mass for one Sunday, you are in mortal sin. If you eat sausage on a Friday during lent, you are in mortal sin. Follow all these laws and regulations, and you might, just might, have a shot at getting into heaven.

Clearly you have a misunderstanding about the Catholic faith. These are disciplines intended to guide the faithful up the straight and narrow path.

Good luck getting around to ever actually doing anything the gospel says a la feed the poor and so on. You have to make sure you aren’t somehow committing some mortal sin in the meantime.

It does seem that your spiritual progress has been hindered by a lack of understanding of the faith,and an insufficient experience of the power of the Risen Christ.

I know that it is great to think that our church comes from Jesus and the apostles, and have the paperwork to prove it. I know. It’s great to think that you can rely on apostolic succession and believe that you are on the right track. This is what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place. But when it comes down to it, when I read the gospel and experience a spiritual rejuvenation, and then go back to church and feel the oppressive weight of a thousand laws, rules and regulations bearing down on me, what am I supposed to think? It’s like when you are little and mom and dad say they love you and leave you with the baby sitter, and the baby sitter sends you to bed without supper for no reason. You start to wonder, is this really what mom and dad wanted?

You make a very good point. Experiencing the “oppressive weight of a thousand laws, rules and regulations bearing down on me” is most likely a childlike apprehension of the faith. It clearly reflects a mindset that is under the Law, rather than walking under grace.
It is a form of Godliness, denying the power thereof.

 

[multitude]

You gotta ask yourself why the rules are there in the first place. They are not there to oppress you; they are supposed to help you. The rules are supposed to be based on love. Well how do those rules help you love? I would not condone breaking those rules, but in my opinion you have to have a fair idea, some sort of conscience formation, that makes it easier to digest those rules. You have to pray about it, really pray about it. You’re a busy man; sometimes there are things we do, things we come across, that just sparks a fire deep into the recesses of your heart that is so penetrating, so furious, and you will just know that this faith is true. No matter how irrational it sometimes seems.

 

[MT1926]

Sometime I will sit down and read them in depth. Work has been busy as of late, as has life.

I feel your pain and just said a prayer for you. It gets so hard sometimes when it feels like the weight of the world is on your shoulders. The last thing we need in life is one more person telling us what to do or asking for one more favor.

I have heard evangelicals criticize Catholicism because it overcomplicates the gospel.

I hear that all the time also. And when I do, I think of fast food, microwaves, internet, etc. Just because it is simple doesn’t mean it is the best thing for us to be doing.
Actually God did make it simple once:
Genesis 3:3
3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
And we still screwed up.

Evangelicals believe you can just do what Jesus says to do in the gospels and you are enjoying his abundant life.

For Catholics, it’s more than just “yes Lord, I believe.” You have to jump through so many hoops.

Good luck getting around to ever actually doing anything the gospel says a la feed the poor and so on.

This is what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place. But when it comes down to it, when I read the gospel and experience a spiritual rejuvenation, and then go back to church and feel the oppressive weight of a thousand laws, rules and regulations bearing down on me, what am I supposed to think?

My first advice would be to stop thinking about the rules. I am not sure If you got around to reading my other post, but you seem to be a lot like me, I know how hard it is to not be in total control all of the time. I think this same strength in you is why you are having such a hard time with this. Deep down. just like me, you know it isn’t simple. Jesus says in the gospels we need to do a whole lot more than just believe.

If you have a desire to feed the poor go for it. I wish I could do more sometimes, but my long days at work keep me from go to serving at our local food cupboard, not because of the church’s rules. So any time I have an extra hog or cow on the farm I donate the meat to St. Vincent DePaul instead. Still able to feed the poor just had to figure out a different way of going about it. Following the church’s rules isn’t going to keep you from feeding the poor. There has always been someone in my life telling me I can’t, but Jesus has given me the strenth to be able to prove that through him "there is always".

 

[exnihilo]

Fast forward 2000 years. I read vatican documents stating that it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, that others can be saved as well. I see saints like Teresa of Calcutta saying things like “I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.” I see popes kissing Qurans and in general a condemnation of proselytization, which when you look at the definition is really just seeking to convert people from one faith to another, which, news flash folks, is exactly what the apostles and martyrs did. When I look at modern Catholicism and its view of salvation, I see something that is, if not universalism, something very, very close to it.

I don’t think you are representing the subtlety of the teaching accurately. However I do agree that the teaching can seem to get close to universalism. But you don’t have to kiss Quarans or even like it when the Holy Father does. You don’t have to think Mother Teresa’s statement is wise. None of this interferes with how you live your Faith. In earlier times you might not have known anything about the Holy Father or his actions, but there would likely be some more local churchman who would do or say something you disagree with. Hanging your faith on the words or actions of another is deadly.

If you dislike that tone of the Church post Vatican II I can understand that. But maybe it is working towards a greater good. Maybe it is the approach that is bringing Protestants like you and me into the Church. Maybe it is what the Church needed to survive the Enlightenment principles which seem about to finish off Christendom.

In the meantime I see evangelicals (like my dad) going out and actually bringing the gospel to people and guess what, those people are learning faith in Christ Jesus, not just “dialoguing” which we seem to be obsessed with doing today.

As someone else said there is nothing preventing you from doing this.

I have heard evangelicals criticize Catholicism because it overcomplicates the gospel. In the gospels, Jesus says “follow me” and you just follow him. He says believe in me and you just believe in him. He says love your enemies and you just do that, etc. Evangelicals believe you can just do what Jesus says to do in the gospels and you are enjoying his abundant life. And when evangelicals go out and preach this gospel, people believe, because it’s actually good news. For Catholics, it’s more than just “yes Lord, I believe.” You have to jump through so many hoops. If you are coming to the church and you are already baptized, you have to first show some proof of your baptism. If you or your spouse were previously married, heaven help you… it may take you years to get an annulment. I have coworkers and relatives who have either left the church or are non practicing because of this. You have obligatory fasts, obligatory feast days, obligatory this and obligatory that. If you fail to attend mass for one Sunday, you are in mortal sin. If you eat sausage on a Friday during lent, you are in mortal sin. Follow all these laws and regulations, and you might, just might, have a shot at getting into heaven. Good luck getting around to ever actually doing anything the gospel says a la feed the poor and so on. You have to make sure you aren’t somehow committing some mortal sin in the meantime.

The Gospel is in many ways simple. It is just follow Jesus. But the reality of life is that following Jesus comes down to doing or not doing certain things. As young a Protestant I remember hearing the Gospel read where Jesus states his position on remarriage. It was clear and obvious to me the teaching. And yet my church didn’t heed it. Yes it is a lot easier to live the Gospel if you ignore it, but then you aren’t living the Gospel.

It isn’t a sin to miss Mass on Sunday. It is a sin to miss Mass for no good reason. It isn’t a sin to eat sausage on a Friday in Lent. It is a sin to knowing the rules purposefully choose to ignore them. What is surprising or odd about that? If you don’t want to join with Christ Body, the Church, and worship or fast (together as a community) then you are wanting to be apart from His body. You are wanting to go it alone. Why would you think that is living the Gospel?

 

[Joe_5859]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Sometime I will sit down and read them in depth. Work has been busy as of late, as has life.

A lot can depend on your perspective, I suppose. One of my classmates who was a convert found the complexity of Catholicism attractive. When he was an evangelical, he accepted Jesus as his Savior and then asked, “Okay, now what?” And the only answer he was given was, “Well, go out and bring others to Jesus.” He found that a bit unsatisfying because he wanted to also go deeper in his relationship with the Lord. The depth of Catholic theology offered him that opportunity.

I tend to view the Catholic faith as a pool so shallow (i.e. simple) that a mouse can wade in it and not drown and yet so deep that an elephant can swim in it. When you look at the basics, it is all pretty simple. The Catechism is organized around (1) the Apostles’ Creed; (2) the seven sacraments; (3) the Ten Commandments; and (4) the Our Father. The entirety of the Catholic faith is contained in those 4 simple things. And yet, there is so much we can say about them.

This makes sense to me. Yes, Jesus says “Follow me” and that is a simple proposition. But how do we follow him? How do we apply his teaching to the nuts and bolts of our life? Different Christian groups come up with different answers to those questions. How do we know who is right?

If you look at what the Church documents say about other religions, they are very precise in their choice of words. It says that non-Catholic may be saved, not that they can be saved nor that they will be saved. If they are saved, it would obviously be through the work of Jesus. The Church is simply acknowledging that Jesus can work outside the visible confines of the Church if he so chooses (because he is God and he can do that). Do we know that he in fact does this? No. All we know is what has been revealed to us. But since we know God is a God of mercy, we hold out hope that he might work in that way with those who have not come to know Jesus explicitly.

Can such thinking lead some to get lazy in their duty to evangelize? Sure, if they misinterpret what the Church is saying. I think of it in terms of the old saying “Work like everything depends on you, but pray like everything depends on God.” We still need to do the work of evangelization because following Christ in the Church is the only way we know people can be saved. But for those who have died outside of the Church, we pray for God’s mercy rather than pronounce judgment that they are in hell.

I feel like I’m jumping all over the place. You raise a lot of points to discuss.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Fast forward 2000 years. I read vatican documents stating that it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, that others can be saved as well. I see saints like Teresa of Calcutta saying things like “I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.” I see popes kissing Qurans and in general a condemnation of proselytization, which when you look at the definition is really just seeking to convert people from one faith to another, which, news flash folks, is exactly what the apostles and martyrs did. When I look at modern Catholicism and its view of salvation, I see something that is, if not universalism, something very, very close to it.

I am reading St. Augustine’s City of God for the second time. I just finished book VIII in which he deals with the question of whether or not it is right to worship a plurality of gods. He engages with the top-notch intellectuals of the time–Varro, the platonists, etc. In every analysis, he never once writes that those who worship the Greek god or Egyptian gods should become better Pagans rather than converting to Christianity. Instead, he follows the teaching of St. Paul and the OT that the gods of the nations are in fact malignant demons. When someone says, “be a better hindu”, he/she is unknowingly or not condoning the worship of demons. Hinduism is very demonic. Read “the young man, the gurus, and Elder Paisos”. It’s written by an Eastern Orthodox who went through a phase where he went to India and practiced Hinduism. His soul suffered immensely because of it. The fact that Mother Teresa told Hindus to continue practicing their faith astounds me in light of this. If St. Augustine was alive today, he would not stand for this.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I am reading St. Augustine’s City of God for the second time. I just finished book VIII in which he deals with the question of whether or not it is right to worship a plurality of gods. He engages with the top-notch intellectuals of the time–Varro, the platonists, etc. In every analysis, he never once writes that those who worship the Greek god or Egyptian gods should become better Pagans rather than converting to Christianity. Instead, he follows the teaching of St. Paul and the OT that the gods of the nations are in fact malignant demons. When someone says, “be a better hindu”, he/she is unknowingly or not condoning the worship of demons. Hinduism is very demonic. Read “the young man, the gurus, and Elder Paisos”. It’s written by an Eastern Orthodox who went through a phase where he went to India and practiced Hinduism. His soul suffered immensely because of it. The fact that Mother Teresa told Hindus to continue practicing their faith astounds me in light of this. If St. Augustine was alive today, he would not stand for this.

Exactly… even St. Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians you cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of devils (referring to those who participate in the Eucharist but then at other times participate in pagan worship. Yes, St. Paul referred to the pagan gods as devils. In today’s church that would be deemed uncharitable. Well just look at what the scripture says about it…

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Exactly… even St. Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians you cannot drink from the cup of the Lord and from the cup of devils (referring to those who participate in the Eucharist but then at other times participate in pagan worship. Yes, St. Paul referred to the pagan gods as devils. In today’s church that would be deemed uncharitable. Well just look at what the scripture says about it…

The tactic most people use when presented with the teachings of the Fathers of the Church they disagree with is to find something absurd/false in their teachings. They use red herring. With St. Augustine, they like to bring up that he thought unbaptized infants go to hell or his view on election. Of course, no Father of the Church is correct in everything he says. If you go to the Scriptures, they say, “you are using Sola Scriptura and are misinterpreting it”. It is a willful blindness from the truth. What makes the Fathers so powerful, however, is their closeness to Sacred Scripture. That is why their writings have survived the tests of time.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Guanophore, you have made some really good points. Thank you. And John Mallory too. And Church Militant. I am going to read through those posts in depth.

Guanophore, I realize that some of the objections I have raised such as with divorce do directly contradict the scriptures. I have to withdraw those objections.

I don’t think I am as serious about leaving the Church as the title suggests. But I am serious in my frustrations and concerns.

It would be very hard to leave the Church anyway, since I married a serious Catholic and our common faith was sort of the basis for our relationship to begin with, plus the matter of rearing my son (faith would be of the utmost importance in child rearing, and so it is utterly important to me that myself and my wife share the same beliefs). Plus I have a very strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin that I would not be comfortable giving up.

 

[Bill_Martin]

I think it’s easy for Catholics to fall into the trap of worshiping the Church. It seems that you have discovered that the Church is not worthy of your worship. That’s fine; we ought not to worship the Church. It’s filled with fallible people doing a mix of good and bad things.

The official teaching of the Church is what really counts.

 

[Lormar]

Progressive only insofar as understanding is concerned. For instance, what the New Testament spoke of as an unclean spirit now is more often known as epilepsy and not demonic, although you will not find n-C churches and clergy half as understanding and prepared to deal with authentic demonic possession as the Catholic Church is. Just an example…
Were they? Yet we have already discussed this and the context of the NT is not supportive of either position, so then the church is free to decry slavery and yet to counsel peace and dignity and respect between slaves and owners…which is one reason that the Catholic Church speaks out against human trafficking.

You need much more careful study of Pope Francis remarks and writings as well as the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic faith.

I can assure you that walking away from it will be one of the very worst mistakes of your life even as it was for me. See My Testimony

I could kiss you, Church Militant! :hug1:Thank you for your lengthy post.

 

[Lormar]

Guanophore, you have made some really good points. Thank you. And John Mallory too. And Church Militant. I am going to read through those posts in depth.

Guanophore, I realize that some of the objections I have raised such as with divorce do directly contradict the scriptures. I have to withdraw those objections.

I don’t think I am as serious about leaving the Church as the title suggests. But I am serious in my frustrations and concerns.

It would be very hard to leave the Church anyway, since I married a serious Catholic and our common faith was sort of the basis for our relationship to begin with, plus the matter of rearing my son (faith would be of the utmost importance in child rearing, and so it is utterly important to me that myself and my wife share the same beliefs). Plus I have a very strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin that I would not be comfortable giving up.

You hold on tightly to that devotion to Our Lady. Don’t ever let go of it. Ask Her to never let you go, no matter how much you kick up a fuss.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t think I am as serious about leaving the Church as the title suggests. But I am serious in my frustrations and concerns.

Frustrations, concerns, struggles with teaching and obedience, all these re natural phenomena of our human course. You seem to be a man who wants integrity, and that is the best way to face these natural functions of growth and development. Remember how the chick must struggle to shed the shell of an egg? And the pupa work to emerge from the cocoon? It is work to press through what seem to be barriers to reach the next stage of life.

God does not want us to be complacent in our faith, and we all have a vocation, and gifts to support the Church. I think He sometimes allows us to experience dissolutionment, frustration, even disgust so that we will not become complacent in our faith.

It would be very hard to leave the Church anyway, since I married a serious Catholic and our common faith was sort of the basis for our relationship to begin with, plus the matter of rearing my son (faith would be of the utmost importance in child rearing, and so it is utterly important to me that myself and my wife share the same beliefs). Plus I have a very strong devotion to the Blessed Virgin that I would not be comfortable giving up.

These are good reasons to have a breakthrough in your spiritual walk. Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. When we look to Him through her, we can see him larger and more clearly.

I will pray for you, as I am sure many others at CAF are also doing.

 

[lax16]

 Again, I can't tell you enough how much your struggles resemble mine. I too was born and reared in Protestantism. People at church were friendly and always wanted to get to know me. Going to Mass feels more like a job. You go in and you go out. No one wants to socialize and get to know you. No one cares. Everybody just goes through the motions and the priest seems very distant.

I am really sorry you are feeling this way. Have you tried to join any ministries or activities at your parish?

Perhaps checking out other parishes might be in order?

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Sometime I will sit down and read them in depth. Work has been busy as of late, as has life.

I see a lot of confusion surrounding my objections concerning the scriptures and the Vatican II documents.

Here is what I see when I read the scriptures. I see Jesus declaring throughout the gospels that we must believe in him for our salvation. I see him say that noone comes to the Father but through him. I see Paul say that there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved. I see the early apostles and martyrs traveling throughout the world preaching the gospel and converting people out of paganism

and toward Christ. I see Paul preaching to the Jews in the synagogue and telling them to repent and turn to Christ for their salvation.I know of nowhere at all that the church in any way contradicts any of that.

Fast forward 2000 years. I read vatican documents stating that it is not absolutely necessary to believe in Jesus to be saved, that others can be saved as well. I see saints like Teresa of Calcutta saying things like “I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic.” I see popes kissing Qurans and in general a condemnation of proselytization, which when you look at the definition is really just seeking to convert people from one faith to another, which, news flash folks, is exactly what the apostles and martyrs did. When I look at modern Catholicism and its view of salvation, I see something that is, if not universalism, something very, very close to it.

This is grossly misinformed bunkum and not the result of reading precisely what has been written in context. You’ll have to provide links to specific documentation and they will need to be authoritative and original Catholic documents. If not…they don’t mean any more than any other secular opinion.

In the meantime I see evangelicals (like my dad) going out and actually bringing the gospel to people and guess what, those people are learning faith in Christ Jesus, not just “dialoguing” which we seem to be obsessed with doing today.

Then you don’t know me or even any of the thousands of Catholics involved in St. Paul Street Evangelization because they are one bunch who are doing exactly that…and doing it very well. Dialog is what we do. You cannot shout preach in the streets and be effective at soul winning and you cannot find a single instance in the Gospels where Our Lord did that. we share our faith where we are every moment of every day. I do anyway…do you?

I have heard evangelicals criticize Catholicism because it overcomplicates the gospel. In the gospels, Jesus says “follow me” and you just follow him. He says believe in me and you just believe in him. He says love your enemies and you just do that, etc. Evangelicals believe you can just do what Jesus says to do in the gospels and you are enjoying his abundant life. And when evangelicals go out and preach this gospel, people believe, because it’s actually good news.

What they are doing is actually not the New Testament Gospel. See Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

For Catholics, it’s more than just “yes Lord, I believe.” You have to jump through so many hoops. If you are coming to the church and you are already baptized, you have to first show some proof of your baptism. If you or your spouse were previously married, heaven help you… it may take you years to get an annulment. I have coworkers and relatives who have either left the church or are non practicing because of this.

These are all things that are in place to assist them coming into the church and the sad fact is that had they obeyed the Biblical teachings of the Catholic Church to begin with they would not be needing it. I’m not being sarcastic or unkind about their situations, just realistic. The fact is that the majority of n-Cs just blow off the conditions of these poor people and offer no remedy for them. how does that help them, since there is clearly a sinful condition there? It doesn’t…http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png

You have obligatory fasts, obligatory feast days, obligatory this and obligatory that. If you fail to attend mass for one Sunday, you are in mortal sin.

What does the 3rd Commandment say?*** [8] "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. [9] Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; [10] but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates; ***

So then where is the scriptural justification not to attend Mass?
There is none…and yet I know of no n-C faith communities that follow that mandate nor recognize it as sinful disobedience to not obey.
(Cont’d)