Tempted to leave the Church...

[Jon_Mallory]

I am really sorry you are feeling this way. Have you tried to join any ministries or activities at your parish?

Perhaps checking out other parishes might be in order?

I have inquired into other ministries but they are transactional ministries–helping people pay their bills. There is no personal interaction. I spoke with my RCIA director about this problem and he agrees that this is a problem and is not my fault because I have earnestly tried. When people bring up this problem, it gets dismissed as whining and complaining about a non-issue. Fact of the matter is that it is a real problem. I have had to ask the question, do Catholics understand fellowship? I’ll probably have to look for a new parish. Anyway, enough said. I don’t want to derail the thread.

 

[Church_Militant]

If you eat sausage on a Friday during lent, you are in mortal sin

Do you see anything in our modern society’s morality that does not call for penance? We live among a people who have become more immoral than any in all of human history. If God was angry because the Israelites murdered their infants by making them pass through the fire to Molech, (look it up) what do you suppose he thinks of the billions (look it up, the numbers are horrendous) of unborn infants that we have seen murdered in the womb?

Read in the Bible about Nineveh and Sodom and Gomorrah and tell me we don’t need to be in penance for our nation and our world…then tell me that our puny little penances that the church asks of us are a bad thing.

Follow all these laws and regulations, and you might, just might, have a shot at getting into heaven. Good luck getting around to ever actually doing anything the gospel says a la feed the poor and so on. You have to make sure you aren’t somehow committing some mortal sin in the meantime.

This is just specious polemics, since the Catholic Church does more for the poor than any other religion around. Want to get involved? Join SPSE and get out on the street with them and/or join the Knights of Columbus in your parish who very quietly bust their butts doing more. I hope you can keep up. They do more than anyone ever knows and never say a word while always looking for more to do.

I know that it is great to think that our church comes from Jesus and the apostles, and have the paperwork to prove it. I know. It’s great to think that you can rely on apostolic succession and believe that you are on the right track. This is what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place.

The Catholic Church is the real church that Christ founded, anyone else is not…

But when it comes down to it, when I read the gospel and experience a spiritual rejuvenation,

Don’t know what “gospel” you’re reading, but mine has me living the Christian faith to the best of my ability and happy to do so.

and then go back to church and feel the oppressive weight of a thousand laws, rules and regulations bearing down on me, what am I supposed to think?

You’re supposed to see that your own thinking is amiss and that you need to sort out the n-C/a-C propaganda from the facts and get busy with the Father’s business and in His church. I haven’t ever felt any oppression or burdens by my Catholic faith the small penances and abstinence that I undertake are a joy in that it is a concrete means of grace for myself and others as I join it all with the sufferings of Christ.where it has merit for all. See Colossians 1:24

It’s like when you are little and mom and dad say they love you and leave you with the baby sitter, and the baby sitter sends you to bed without supper for no reason. You start to wonder, is this really what mom and dad wanted?

Specious analogy much…

 

[Church_Militant]

I am really sorry you are feeling this way. Have you tried to join any ministries or activities at your parish?

Perhaps checking out other parishes might be in order?

I have inquired into other ministries but they are transactional ministries–helping people pay their bills. There is no personal interaction. I spoke with my RCIA director about this problem and he agrees that this is a problem and is not my fault because I have earnestly tried. When people bring up this problem, it gets dismissed as whining and complaining about a non-issue. Fact of the matter is that it is a real problem. I have had to ask the question, do Catholics understand fellowship? I’ll probably have to look for a new parish. Anyway, enough said. I don’t want to derail the thread.

Then you need to help become part of the answer.

In our parish there is breakfast after the Sunday morning Mass and daily Masses. Even if it’s just donuts and coffee (though the youth group generally provides a much more substantial meal on Sundays) then it gets us all sitting down and talking and the fellowship is great.

Talk to the parish Knights of Columbus. In our parish they do an inexpensive ($7.00 a person) meal every Wednesday night and the food is terrific. (this week it was a pork loin, veggies, mashed potatoes, and gravy, bread, drink, salad and desert, and it is always delicious!) and beginning next Friday they have a fish fry every Friday in Lent. The fellowship is such that we all really look forward to it and we have made some very good friends. We talk about current events, the Pope, the Bible, stuff going on in our lives, prayer requests, and we have our priests and deacons there with us to boot. It’s great! Talk to you pastor and get everyone on board and I’ll be praying with you that you guys can start something really great there in your church too.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Do you see anything in our modern society’s morality that does not call for penance? We live among a people who have become more immoral than any in all of human history. If God was angry because the Israelites murdered their infants by making them pass through the fire to Molech, (look it up) what do you suppose he thinks of the billions (look it up, the numbers are horrendous) of unborn infants that we have seen murdered in the womb?

Read in the Bible about Nineveh and Sodom and Gomorrah and tell me we don’t need to be in penance for our nation and our world…then tell me that our puny little penances that the church asks of us are a bad thing.

It’s one thing to recommend penances for people. It’s another to say that you have to do a particular penance on a particular day, or else you will burn in hell for all eternity.

Don’t know what “gospel” you’re reading, but mine has me living the Christian faith to the best of my ability and happy to do so.
You’re supposed to see that your own thinking is amiss and that you need to sort out the n-C/a-C propaganda from the facts and get busy with the Father’s business and in His church. I haven’t ever felt any oppression or burdens by my Catholic faith the small penances and abstinence that I undertake are a joy in that it is a concrete means of grace for myself and others as I join it all with the sufferings of Christ.where it has merit for all. See Colossians 1:24
Specious analogy much…

Mark 2:23-27

One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

 

[Della]

As a fellow convert (who was reconciled to the Church about 25 years ago), I’d like to share what I see happening, CompSciGuy and John Mallory.

First of all, I believe you are misunderstanding what the Church is. She is, like her Lord and Head, both human and divine. This is most important to grasp, and grasp fully otherwise we make the mistake of judging things said and done by her leadership as either not living up to our ideas of perfection or of thinking she, in her humanity, can’t make mistakes. Either notion leads to confusion, as I see in you.

Secondly, many of us who came from Evangelical backgrounds came into the Church through much study and prayer. And that was good. Study is always good and so is prayer, of course. However, the mind set that we used can work against us because we are still “measuring” the Church against our own set of standards instead of letting her be herself, informing us of what we ought to understand/believe. It’s a subtle temptation we former Evangelicals most easily fall into.

As for fellowship, ministries can be one way to get involved, but sometimes a more prosaic means might be better for fellowshipping with other parishioners, making friends and getting known in the parish. Join those who clean the church or who serve meals or who sing for funerals, etc. There are always things that need to be done in any parish and volunteers are always needed.

No one can, in a single thread, sort out all your confusion and disheartenment. It takes time, sometimes a long time, to adjust to a new mind set/world view. In this many of remain Protestant even though we have been reconciled to the Church. Prayerfully, in humility and patience, let the Church teach you instead of you attempting to teach the Church. I think you’ll find yourselves far less unsettled and afraid. God bless you, you have my prayers. Please say one for me.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Church_Militant:
Don’t know what “gospel” you’re reading, but mine has me living the Christian faith to the best of my ability and happy to do so.

So you believe that the Jesus and the apostles of the gospels were all about indulgences and poring over canon law? Because I just don’t see that in the gospels…

 

[CompSciGuy]

As a fellow convert (who was reconciled to the Church about 25 years ago), I’d like to share what I see happening, CompSciGuy and John Mallory.

First of all, I believe you are misunderstanding what the Church is. She is, like her Lord and Head, both human and divine. This is most important to grasp, and grasp fully otherwise we make the mistake of judging things said and done by her leadership as either not living up to our ideas of perfection or of thinking she, in her humanity, can’t make mistakes. Either notion leads to confusion, as I see in you.

Secondly, many of us who came from Evangelical backgrounds came into the Church through much study and prayer. And that was good. Study is always good and so is prayer, of course. However, the mind set that we used can work against us because we are still “measuring” the Church against our own set of standards instead of letting her be herself, informing us of what we ought to understand/believe. It’s a subtle temptation we former Evangelicals most easily fall into.

As for fellowship, ministries can be one way to get involved, but sometimes a more prosaic means might be better for fellowshipping with other parishioners, making friends and getting known in the parish. Join those who clean the church or who serve meals or who sing for funerals, etc. There are always things that need to be done in any parish and volunteers are always needed.

No one can, in a single thread, sort out all your confusion and disheartenment. It takes time, sometimes a long time, to adjust to a new mind set/world view. In this many of remain Protestant even though we have been reconciled to the Church. Prayerfully, in humility and patience, let the Church teach you instead of you attempting to teach the Church. I think you’ll find yourselves far less unsettled and afraid. God bless you, you have my prayers. Please say one for me.

The problem is, I could just as easily see the Mormon church making the same claim, just as an example. The Church can teach or do something that sounds dreadfully wrong, and that stirs the conscience of a Christian in a bad way, and the only response of other Catholics is “well, it’s the Church, whatever she says goes.”
Maybe Catholics are right and it is true that scripture isn’t enough. But the thing is, sola scriptura or none, we can at least rely on scripture to tell us the truth. We know that what Jesus says is true. And let’s be honest folks… it’s not all that hard to understand. Some of it is, yes. But not all of it. If Jesus or his disciples say something plain and simple and then some church comes along and says something totally different, what is supposed to be our reaction?

 

[CompSciGuy]

Then you don’t know me or even any of the thousands of Catholics involved in St. Paul Street Evangelization because they are one bunch who are doing exactly that…and doing it very well. Dialog is what we do. You cannot shout preach in the streets and be effective at soul winning and you cannot find a single instance in the Gospels where Our Lord did that. we share our faith where we are every moment of every day.

Ah yes, SPSE. I had been trying to get a chapter started in my city before life happened, along with a baby, that has slowed me down for the time being. Right now I support them financially but we still haven’t gotten our group together.

I can assure you, there are a huge number of Catholics in good standing with the Church who would tell you that what you are doing is wrong, that you shouldn’t be actually sharing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics, and that evangelizing just means being nice to people and buttering them up, making them feel good about themselves. And if you challenge them, there response will just be “Vatican II.”

 

[Bookcat]

What priest could possibly have the time to meet with me in their busy schedules?

They do.

Just make an appointment. Happens all the time.

And as I suggested above - also call the Apologist line at Catholic Answers.

 

[Bookcat]

Read this document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - signed by then Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and approved by St. Pope John Paul II - it will address some of your questions. Read from beginning to the end…take some time with it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[Bookcat]

I can assure you, there are a huge number of Catholics in good standing with the Church who would tell you that what you are doing is wrong, that you shouldn’t be actually sharing the Catholic faith with non-Catholics, and that evangelizing just means being nice to people and buttering them up, making them feel good about themselves. And if you challenge them, there response will just be “Vatican II.”

And they simply do not know what they are talking about…

Such is* contrary* to the Teaching of the Church – *including *the last Council (Vatican II).

Just cause some do not know their Faith or are confused…that is not the measure of what the Faith Teaches…but only of the confusion of particular persons.

Heck - you can go on the street and ask history questions about the US of people and they will give wrong answers…or about any number of topics…

 

[Bookcat]

A

Read this document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - signed by then Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and approved by St. Pope John Paul II - it will address some of your questions. Read from beginning to the end…take some time with it…it will help you see what the Church Teaches regarding the necessity of Jesus Christ and his Church …etc.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[Della]

The problem is, I could just as easily see the Mormon church making the same claim, just as an example.

So could any Christian body, but which one was founded by Christ, and established by Christ to teach in his name? Only one.

The Church can teach or do something that sounds dreadfully wrong, and that stirs the conscience of a Christian in a bad way, and the only response of other Catholics is “well, it’s the Church, whatever she says goes.”

When something the Church officially teaches (not just random comments made by a pope or other Church leader) “sounds dreadfully wrong,” we Catholics go to what the Church actually teaches. Learning why the Church teaches what she does can be helpful, but again, by having to know why, as opposed to wanting to know why, we make ourselves the judges of what is/isn’t authentic truth in matters of faith and morals instead of the Magisterium, who have that right, duty and authority, not us.

Maybe Catholics are right and it is true that scripture isn’t enough. But the thing is, sola scriptura or none, we can at least rely on scripture to tell us the truth. We know that what Jesus says is true. And let’s be honest folks… it’s not all that hard to understand. Some of it is, yes. But not all of it. If Jesus or his disciples say something plain and simple and then some church comes along and says something totally different, what is supposed to be our reaction?

Each individual is not the proper authority to decide what Scripture means in matters of faith and morals. Remember, the Bible is a witness to Christ and his Church. It is not, never was, never will be the arbiter of truth. You need to read the Catechism with a reliable guide to help you, be that another person or other resource. Nowhere does the Church “say something totally different.” You are still reading the Bible through your Protestant understanding. You have to unlearn what you thought you knew. After I was reconciled to the Church I didn’t pick up a Bible for some time–because every familiar verse screamed it’s Protestant interpretation at me. I needed to read it with the Church’s understanding. It took time before Scripture reading again fed me instead of tempting me to judge everything according to what I’d been erroneously taught. It’s going to take time. So, you need patience.

The idea that we are better judges of eternal truths than Christ’s Church is a faulty one that will lead you away from the truth as surely as taking the wrong road will take you to the wrong destination. Let the Church teach you because it is Christ’s own Church–which is a proven historical fact, not merely anyone’s opinion.

 

[CompSciGuy]

OK, I think what I need to do is go back and read through the gospels, the Acts of the apostles, and the letters to the churches and take notes, and write down anything that sticks out to me as being problematic. Periodically I will go through these notes and then post here on the forums as well as do research in Catholic Answers articles to see what has to be said about these matters.

The problem is, over the past five years I have run across verses and also run across quotes by popes, stuff from encyclicals and elsewhere that has bothered me, but I would push it to the back of my mind because I didn’t want it to challenge my Catholic faith. Because of that, they are swimming around in my mind but it is hard to recall the exact location of the verses, the exact encyclicals, etc. I need to keep my eye out for these and nab them when I find them.

Finally, I think one of the number one struggle I have is with my protestant friends and relatives. I know I have repeated this many times on these forums. My brother is an evangelical Christian, currently in a seminary, who is probably the holiest person I have ever known. He has gone on multiple mission trips overseas where he helped to build wells to bring clean water to people. He has helped multiple homeless people, literally bringing them into his home, to the point where he was taken advantage of financially, etc. multiple times because of his willingness to help the poor. In college we lived in the same house; every moment he wasn’t hitting the books, he was in his Bible. He actually converted a number of people to faith in Christ. He was gracious to everyone around him. When I was converting to Catholicism, he frequently challenged me on topics related to faith. He still challenges me because of my devotion to Mary (which I absolutely won’t give up… I believe my devotion to her is the only reason why I was able to overcome a sinful addiction and I believe that as soon as I stop praying to her, I will be right back in that spiral. I love her and can’t thank her enough for helping me through that trial and I would not abandon her). The thing is, it is hard for me to understand from a Catholic perspective how Zach could live such a holy life when he does not have the sacraments. He has never been to confession, he has never received the Body and Blood of Christ… but to see the way his life changed in high school when he found God… you would understand where I am coming from. It was night and day. I remember thinking, who is this guy and where is my brother? This is not the same guy I grew up with.

God bless you guys, thank you for your involvement here.

 

[Bookcat]

The thing is, it is hard for me to understand from a Catholic perspective how Zach could live such a holy life when he does not have the sacraments. He has never been to confession, he has never received the Body and Blood of Christ… but to see the way his life changed in high school when he found God… you would understand where I am coming from. It was night and day. I remember thinking, who is this guy and where is my brother? This is not the same guy I grew up with.

God bless you guys, thank you for your involvement here.

He does BAPTISM (I assume since most Protestant Baptisms are valid).

Faith and Baptism…Sacred Scriptures…prayer…etc.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#I

 

[Lormar]

CompSciGuy, what I am about to tell you I am saying to myself as well - humble yourself and lay your ego/pride aside.

You have been given excellent advice on here by Church Militant and Della.

Della, you don’t have to be a former Evangelical to have the mindset you wrote about:

However, the mind set that we used can work against us because we are still “measuring” the Church against our own set of standards instead of letting her be herself, informing us of what we ought to understand/believe. It’s a subtle temptation …

Traditional Catholics, who go to (even who are former members because it is a very hard mindset to shake once it is acquired) chapels that are not in communion with the Church (SSPX/sedevacantists), do the same thing.

 

[Lormar]

I never thought I’d ever say this on CAF, but many Catholics here put me to shame, and I thank you for that.

 

[Lormar]

Prayerfully, in humility and patience, let the Church teach you instead of you attempting to teach the Church. I think you’ll find yourselves far less unsettled and afraid.

Don’t know how I missed this the first time I read the post and am grateful I came back to read it again.

Very wise words. Thank you, Della.

 

[Della]

OK, I think what I need to do is go back and read through the gospels, the Acts of the apostles, and the letters to the churches and take notes, and write down anything that sticks out to me as being problematic. Periodically I will go through these notes and then post here on the forums as well as do research in Catholic Answers articles to see what has to be said about these matters.

The problem is, over the past five years I have run across verses and also run across quotes by popes, stuff from encyclicals and elsewhere that has bothered me, but I would push it to the back of my mind because I didn’t want it to challenge my Catholic faith. Because of that, they are swimming around in my mind but it is hard to recall the exact location of the verses, the exact encyclicals, etc. I need to keep my eye out for these and nab them when I find them.

Yes, “talking” them out here on CAF is a great idea. If I can, I’ll be there.

Finally, I think one of the number one struggle I have is with my protestant friends and relatives. I know I have repeated this many times on these forums. My brother is an evangelical Christian, currently in a seminary, who is probably the holiest person I have ever known. He has gone on multiple mission trips overseas where he helped to build wells to bring clean water to people. He has helped multiple homeless people, literally bringing them into his home, to the point where he was taken advantage of financially, etc. multiple times because of his willingness to help the poor. In college we lived in the same house; every moment he wasn’t hitting the books, he was in his Bible. He actually converted a number of people to faith in Christ. He was gracious to everyone around him. When I was converting to Catholicism, he frequently challenged me on topics related to faith. He still challenges me because of my devotion to Mary (which I absolutely won’t give up… I believe my devotion to her is the only reason why I was able to overcome a sinful addiction and I believe that as soon as I stop praying to her, I will be right back in that spiral. I love her and can’t thank her enough for helping me through that trial and I would not abandon her). The thing is, it is hard for me to understand from a Catholic perspective how Zach could live such a holy life when he does not have the sacraments. He has never been to confession, he has never received the Body and Blood of Christ… but to see the way his life changed in high school when he found God… you would understand where I am coming from. It was night and day. I remember thinking, who is this guy and where is my brother? This is not the same guy I grew up with.

God bless you guys, thank you for your involvement here.

What your wonderful brother is doing is availing himself fully of the graces God gives him. I only wish more Catholics had his ardor–were open to God’s calling to do the good works he is doing. It’s funny, if you don’t mind my saying so, that even though he doesn’t believe in good works as part of our salvation, he is doing them just the same. Would that we all would be so unselfish and caring.

God grants his graces to those who want them. In Mary’s appearances to St. Catherine Laboure, she showed her hands with many jewels on her fingers. When Catherine asked what they were, Our Lady replied that they were graces God would like to bestow on his children that he had given her to give to us. I often think of that, and beg for those graces.

Each of us serves God where we are and according to what we know/can do. And God rewards those efforts because he is the God of those who seek him. God alone is the judge of what we know, what we intend, what we can do. So, I applaud your brother and the good work he is doing. Perhaps he’ll on day seek the fullness of the faith which subsists within the Catholic Church. Still, by reason of his baptism he is joined to her and to Christ, though imperfectly joined to Christ’s one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. God bless him, and you, as well for your desire for truth. God will answer you need to know it, I’m sure.

 

[Thorolfr]

My brother is an evangelical Christian, currently in a seminary, who is probably the holiest person I have ever known. He has gone on multiple mission trips overseas where he helped to build wells to bring clean water to people. He has helped multiple homeless people, literally bringing them into his home, to the point where he was taken advantage of financially, etc. multiple times because of his willingness to help the poor.

I’ve got a cousin who is an evangelical Christian. She’s also a Baptist missionary in one of the countries in central America like Guatemala or Honduras, where she and other Protestant missionaries are providing a lot of help to the local inhabitants. But the other thing she and her fellow missionaries are doing is converting Catholics into Baptists and one of the ways they do this is because they have the money and resources to provide help to people whose own Catholic parishes lack the necessary resources and manpower to do the same. There aren’t even enough Catholic priests for the parishes there and the Catholic Church is stretched thin in many of those places. They don’t have enough people there to dig wells for people and provide houses for homeless people like many of the Protestant missionaries who are doing work there.

Another one of my cousins is a Baptist minister and he wants to take his family to go and do missionary work in the Philippines, another mostly Catholic country (although there are a few Muslims there, too),

Maybe the mission work your brother is doing is different, but I’m a little skeptical of what a lot of Protestant missionaries are doing since many of them are just poaching people from other Christian groups.