Tempted to leave the Church...

[CompSciGuy]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion. I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)
3. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
4. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

The list goes on… I don’t have time to post them all here right now.
Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved… my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic. Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well? If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

 

[PBP]

Here is what I just posted on a similar thread. Its a brief experience of mine.

Hello and thank you for sharing your story with us. About 4 years ago I dabbled in the possibility of leaving the faith. I had questions and no one (including pastor at that time) had more than the canned answers designed to get them out of the conversation which I found to be shallow and frustrating. So I went to check out another Christian denomination’s church hoping to experience people on fire for GOD. Mistake #1, I put my faith in the people. So the auditorium was very nice there…high quality sound and video system. Suddenly a light high above the stage came on and there was the preacher, several people in white robes, and a clear see thru pool of water so spectators could see. The preacher began to explain the symbolism of the act of the baptism about to take place. He then said quote “now we know nothing actually happens”. I was in shock really because I knew that denomination’s baptism were normally valid and here was someone in that faith saying otherwise. I stayed remainder of the service and left disappointed that I had not experienced the fellowship there but more importantly knowing I couldnt walk away from the sacraments. Apostolic Succession is undeniable.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Here is what I just posted on a similar thread. Its a brief experience of mine.

Hello and thank you for sharing your story with us. About 4 years ago I dabbled in the possibility of leaving the faith. I had questions and no one (including pastor at that time) had more than the canned answers designed to get them out of the conversation which I found to be shallow and frustrating. So I went to check out another Christian denomination’s church hoping to experience people on fire for GOD. Mistake #1, I put my faith in the people. So the auditorium was very nice there…high quality sound and video system. Suddenly a light high above the stage came on and there was the preacher, several people in white robes, and a clear see thru pool of water so spectators could see. The preacher began to explain the symbolism of the act of the baptism about to take place. He then said quote “now we know nothing actually happens”. I was in shock really because I knew that denomination’s baptism were normally valid and here was someone in that faith saying otherwise. I stayed remainder of the service and left disappointed that I had not experienced the fellowship there but more importantly knowing I couldnt walk away from the sacraments. Apostolic Succession is undeniable.

There are denominations who believe in graces of baptism, such as the Lutherans. These get their doctrines from the scriptures, as opposed to church teaching, which evidently is subject to change. You can argue on about personal interpretation, but can you really argue that the CC has a better handle on interpreting scripture than anyone else? And if so then what do you have to show for it?

 

[Bookcat]

You phrased that correctly - it is a “temptation”.

(Spiritual writers over time have noted that temptations are to be dealt with differently - and that temptations against faith and chastity are more dealt with by* flight* than fight - and holding fast to ones Faith - to Jesus)

I would propose to you that part of your difficulties lie in misunderstandings such as regarding the texts you noted. Various misconceptions can be cleared up with study, and time.

You may want to even give the apologist line a call - for a person on the phone is better than a forum…to work through these things…(or better yet a person in person…)…

In Jesus of Nazareth and thus in his Body the Church is* true life!*

 

[pianistclare]

Catholicism is the fullness of faith.
There one can find all the tools you need in your toolbox to get to heaven.
I’ll never understand why people think that some people are just clueless and don’t deserve heaven. I pray that all can live in eternal bliss with God.

Stop worrying about others and focus on securing your salvation as best as you are able.
It’s not a ticket to somewhere that needs to be punched.
To be a practicing Catholic means more. You have a relationship with Christ Himself.
Ask yourself:
Do I REALLLY want to talk away from that? Walk away from the Real Presence?
Walk away from the Lord Himself nourishing you for the journey?
Communion gives us the grace to face the week and get past our temptations.
I’m thinking the prince of lies is quite pleased with himself today.
He is toying with you, friend.

Make an appointment with your pastor, and speak to him about this. You’re not the first person to ask questions. That’s what he’s there for.
Be assured of our prayers.

 

[exnihilo]

I can understand your frustration. As a convert myself when I originally thought of the Catholic Church I had some notion that it changed over time. This is after all the Protestant argument, that the Catholic Church corrupted the pure Gospel. Later as I reconsidered I thought of the Church more as the one holding fast to the Apostolic Tradition. As a Protestant seeking a more firm foundation this was appealing.

As I continued my study I found that often times Catholics would seem to backpedal on certain statements. It seemed to me at one time they had said something more definitive like extra ecclessiam nulla salus, but now they were saying anyone could be saved. How can this be reconciled?

What I came to believe was that issues can often be more subtle. I realized that everyone, including me, tends to speak naturally in broader terms. If we really wanted to be clear in our speech we would end up like an Apple end user agreement. These are written by attorneys to cover every problem they foresaw and any that they didn’t and later had to cover.

When approaching Church teaching to fully understand it you often need to carefully examine not just a single text but many texts. I do have problems reconciling what I perceive are some ancient teachings with how they are taught in modern times. But I don’t see this as a problem, and certainly not a reason to give up on the Church in any way. It might be that I am misunderstanding, as I perceive, the old or new teaching. It might be that the old or new teaching was not or is not adequately fleshed out. It might be that a particular teacher is not as comprehensible to me or could even just be a poor communicator.

One thing I’ve found is that in my opinion many Catholics hang the truth of the Church on every utterance of the Holy Father. The Holy Father does not have a charism of utter perfection. He can say things poorly, he can be imprudent in his words and actions, and he can even simply teach wrongly, so long as the conditions of infallibility are not met. And this all applies to those below the Pope who have no infallibility charism.

As to the specifics I don’t see a problem regarding Muslims. It is not taught that all Muslims are saved. It only says God includes Muslims in his plan. Of course God does. He is omnipotent so they do not escape His plan. The teaching isn’t that Muslims are all saved. I agree that the language and our bias can make us see statements as being too hopeful. But when examined carefully I don’t see the problem.

Regarding slavery I don’t know how you could reconcile past teaching with the idea that slavery of any sort is categorically wrong. But I don’t see that the Church has taught that slavery is categorically wrong. It has certainly been disapproving of slavery in modern times and I think that poses no problem. If you really want to study this issue you have do have to look at context because the practice of slavery, like any human issue, is complex and varies in history.

Where else can you go? When I was considering the Church a priest asked me two questions. If I was a member of Catholic Church would my doubts justify separation? If I was a member of the Catholic a church would the arguments of any non catholic be compelling to separate? The answer, even when I had strong doubts, was no. I may not have then been able to understand and reconcile everything. But my troubles weren’t enough reason, had I been Catholic, to separate. I can’t speak for you but what you mention doesn’t seem compelling to me.

I’ll be praying for you.

 

[pianistclare]

God is merciful, that’s how they can be saved.
We don’t know the limits of God’s mercy, do we? We hope for all. I do.
OF COURSE the Church wants you to have all the tools to secure salvation.
Those can be found within the teachings of the Church that Christ Himself founded.
This is the mission…to guide people in holiness and Christian life so that we can attain heaven.
Do those of other denominations go to heaven? Probably. I certainly would hope so, for their sake. I would also hope that many come to the richness of the Catholic Church.
The Eucharist!
You have to remember the context in which those early documents were written. The Church has always fought heresy, ignorance, and just plain laziness upon the part of the faithful. Strong words have always been used.
St. Paul had really strong words for people. Times were dire. Some would argue that they still are.
Teachings have not “changed” so much as we now have a fuller understanding as God reveals His mercy to us. The Church is a living organism, not a mausoleum of old documents. If it was, we not have any theologians to read, or any saints to follow after the death of Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

Read this document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - signed by then Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI) and approved by St. Pope John Paul II - it will address some of your questions. Read from beginning to the end…take some time with it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[SyroMalankara]

There are denominations who believe in graces of baptism, such as the Lutherans. These get their doctrines from the scriptures, as opposed to church teaching, which evidently is subject to change. You can argue on about personal interpretation, but can you really argue that the CC has a better handle on interpreting scripture than anyone else? And if so then what do you have to show for it?

Lutherans around here have never denied the need for Tradition and how it’s a valuable lens on how to read Scripture. In fact, many of the confessional Lutherans on CAF are more ‘catholic’ in worldview than many Catholics.

 

[crenfro]

Hello.

Don’t know if this will help or not, but one time directly after Mass, I’d been crying during the whole Mass, I told my pastor the same thing - that I was tempted to leave the Church.

He countered my statement with “who is the one who wants you to leave the Church?” I knew it certainly wasn’t God, so I replied with the obvious - “the Bad One.”

Felt better after that.

Sometimes it helps to keep track of all the little kindnesses and tiny miracles you experience every day.

Please keep me in your prayers.

 

[Church_Militant]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

As one who wasted over 30 years outside the church I would have to tell you that that is a terrible idea. I urge you to prayerfully rethink in the context of the following information.
My Testimony
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
Does the Bible teach that everything that we believe and practice has to be found in its pages?

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore.
I remember converting to the Catholic faith five years ago. I remember how awesome I thought it was that the Catholic Church came from Jesus and the apostles. I remember thinking about how the scripture made so much sense in light of tradition. I don’t know now how I ever came to that conclusion. I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

That would be because the fundamental doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Word of God. Only in the context of Sacred Tradition and the well informed (over 2,000 years worth) Catholic Church does any true interpretation take place. Essentially, you need to decide if you are willing to settle for something less than the fullness of truth. I am not , that’s for sure. Jesus said that He is the truth, and the fullness of truth can only bring us closer to Him.

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)

It seems to me that you are only reading Pope Francis in news reports instead of reading him ver batim and in context. Look over in Apologetics where I hang out. We constantly examine papal writings and news reports and you soon see a difference…and be better informed.

You need to pay careful attention at Mass. Why do you think the consecration plainly says***?***
***Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.

***“For many” (pro multis in Latin) is precisely what the church and Pope Francis teaches and has always taught. The blood of Christ was shed for all mankind…but not all will receive it, and so not all will be saved.
(Cont’d)

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Probably not outright, I am already married to a practicing Catholic. But I would probably go to mass and just not receive communion ever again.

I just find it hard to believe in Catholicism anymore… I remember struggling with certain things and just putting them in the back of my mind. Now they are coming back to haunt me.

I would strongly recommend that you thoroughly investigate these issues before you take any such steps. Particularly because of the examples you provided:

I think the main ones are regarding salvation. Here are some examples:

1. "Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6
2. “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all!” - Pope Francis
   (not to mention that the New Testament says that without faith it is impossible to please God, whereas Pope Francis says that they need merely to do good works and follow their consciences.)

First, it is unambiguously Catholic teaching that no one is saved except through Christ.

Second, redemption and salvation are not the same thing. (catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-difference-between-being-redeemed-and-being-saved). You can think of redemption as the offering of opportunity for salvation - we are all offered that opportunity, we don’t all take it. So yes, all people are redeemed, but this does not mean that all people are saved.

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
2. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

Once again, #2 here does not imply that other religions are true or possess salvic power. What it says is that God will work to bring people to Him even through these other religions. Should they be saved, they will still be saved through Christ. This does not contradict #1, other “gospels” are still wrong, and those who make them up to preach them are not gonna have a good time. But those who follow them because they have heard them and think they are true are in a different boat

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. … I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, …

The growing sentiment is wrong. However, I am at a loss as to how Catholicism stops you from seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture - I mean, you have the mass and Eucharist and confession also, but you still have those things.

Likewise, avoiding bad out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering God’s wrath is the lowest form of motivation. If you are already motivated to do good otherwise, then great, and confession is there for when you mess up. Catholicism does not teach that we must live in fear.

I could keep addressing your points, but I don’t want to take a shotgun approach. Partially because that’s what it sounds like got you into your situation to start with.

There is a type of argument style where people pepper you (or we pepper ourselves) with lots of (sometimes little) things. Each one can be addressed, but the idea is that about the time you think you’re starting to deal with one, they throw another one at you to keep you off balance, and you don’t actually finish dealing with the first. This leaves the impression that you couldn’t settle any of these issues, even though what really happened is that you move between topics so fast that you just don’t have time to address anything fully.

My advice: study each issue that bothers you, one at a time, in depth. You think the Church actually supported slavery at one point? Research that, and you will find that some clergy supported it, and that the Church taught norms of behavior given that it was a reality (because it was), but little more. Bothered by the Pope saying that all people go to heaven no matter what? Research that, and you’ll realize that Pope Francis doesn’t say a quarter of the things people say he does (and on that front, I would also advise you to ignore most of what people say the Pope says and only go to the source when things appear to be confusing, and keep in mind that Catholicism has a specialized language such as redemption vs salvation).

But again, one thing at a time. You may find that your issues with salvation, say, are related to something that the Church teaches (baptism by desire, invincible ignorance, extraordinary means - emphasis on the extraordinary), but that the issue is complex and not quiet what you thought it was. But there is no way that you will understand this complexity that some people misrepresent as indifferentism if you are also trying to go back and forth between 137 other questions about slavery and why the NY Times said Pope Francis thinks we should all worship Mother Earth at the same time. If salvation questions are your number one issue, address those first, and thoroughly, and treat all other issues as distractions until you’re done. Then move on to the next.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m sorry to hear you are going through a spiritual rough patch.

For me, I cannot escape the words of St. Peter, “Lord, to whom else shall we go?” I believe that Jesus is the Son of God who desires to save all people throughout human history. Okay, so from there, what did he leave behind so that this desire could be accomplished. Would he leave behind some definitive revelation that we could trust would teach us about him without error? That makes sense. But how should we interpret that revelation, whether written down or not? Am I left to figure it out myself? To trust my own judgment that I have witnessed fail time and time again throughout my life? Does my salvation hinge on my fallible intellect? I sure hope not. If the founding fathers of the U.S. had the foresight to create an interpretive body (the Supreme Court) for the document (the Constitution) that governs the country, how much more likely is it that God would do similarly for his heavenly Kingdom? It just makes sense.

He said the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. If we are left to figure it out on our own with no living authority to settle disputes, how could I ever possess certainty without wondering, “How can I be sure I’m not just listening to my own voice rather than that of the Spirit?” After all, there are many people out there who claim to be following the Holy Spirit toward totally different beliefs. How can I know who to trust?

Keep praying and drawing closer to the Lord.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

If you do a little digging you will see that the slavery practiced in the Americas was formally condemned repeatedly. The Spanish king even tried to outlaw slavery because of Papal intervention, these failed because the local leaders weaseled and kept doing it.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic.

I hear you on that.

Aside from the reasons I have stated above, I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience.

How would that be any simpler? You’d still hear or read the Papal statements, in addition, you’d hear your own pastors misstatements, and everyone else you listen to. If you choose not to listen and ignore all the voices on a daily basis - well, you can do that now.

I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

That is still possible. Why would changing jurisdiction or denomination alter this. Would you be open to visiting an Eastern Catholic parish, and speaking with a Eastern priest?

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well? If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

Many abolitionists were Catholics, many slavery supporters were protestant, I’m not sure how broad generalizations help clarify.
people.opposingviews.com/abolitionist-movement-catholic-church-8591.html

Another article:
christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/julyweb-only/7-14-53.0.html

 

[Church_Militant]

1. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8
2. “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.”

I love that first verse there. Here’s a couple of my blog articles that may help you get your feet under you again.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
How Is A Catholic Saved?

The list goes on… I don’t have time to post them all here right now.
Please do not interpret this to mean that I am prejudiced and have a problem with the idea of other religions being saved… my problem is one of conscience because what Jesus and his apostles teach strongly differ from these teachings.

only in your poorly informed opinion. It seems that you have fallen back into the standard thinking of n-C/a-Cs. How did that come about?

You need to be very diligent about your own personal study of your Catholic faith and if you drop me a PM I can offer a boatload of very fine sources of many kinds where you can feed yourself …and I will be happy to assist in any way that I can… I know…because I’ve been there.

Also I have heard apologists try to brand Catholicism as having “not changed” over the course of 2000 years, being steadfast in the divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. In reality the Church has changed its position on slavery among other things throughout history, usually catering to the popular view of the time. There are so many contradictions in Church teaching over the years in history, and all apologetics surrounding these contradictions amounts to relying on technicalities of syntax or the meaning of “ex-cathedra.” It all sounds so bogus.

How can authentic facts be bogus? Slavery has never been a doctrine or dogma of the church and the New Testament has no condemnation of it Why would the church change much. Now we see slavery as an evil as would anyone who has been a slave, but the church has always taught…as does the New Testament, that slave owners must treat their slaves with dignity and respect and that slaves should do the same for their owners. Today I think that translates into our modern workplace relationships.

There is also a growing sentiment among Catholics, much of which comes from the clergy, that it really doesn’t matter what you believe so long as you do good and you will be saved. If that is the case, I find very little reason to remain a Catholic. Aside from the reasons I have stated above,

I don’t know where you get that from. Can you cite a single bishop? I doubt it, and I have already pointed out that you have been misled by not actually reading what Pope Francis says vs what the secular media and a-C sources report.

I am beginning to miss my Protestant upbringing, and the simplicity of seeking God through prayer and Holy Scripture, and not having to worry about what a pope will say or what odd things my church might teach that will violate my conscience. I also remember the comfort of being able to rest in God’s mercy and repent and grow in holiness out of a love for God and not out of fear of committing mortal sin and suffering His wrath.

This is just uninformed thinking. There is nothing simple about Protestant religious thinking and theology because they are constantly burdened by the need for reinventing the wheel by self interpretation of every scripture that you read. Hence they are scattered by every new wind of doctrines of modern men and are indeed sheep without a shepherd.

As I point out in an earlier link “the simplicity of the gospel” that n-Cs often refer to is an unscriptural myth when one takes the time to read the New Testament for oneself. have you been reading the New Testament? If not, follow Pope Francis advice and begin doing so today. I do.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

I know I have posted on this topic before but I still am not entirely satisfied with the answers. People have responded in my previous posts that the Church is a “growing organism” and that revelation is somehow “progressive” but couldn’t that be the situation with Protestants as well?

Progressive only insofar as understanding is concerned. For instance, what the New Testament spoke of as an unclean spirit now is more often known as epilepsy and not demonic, although you will not find n-C churches and clergy half as understanding and prepared to deal with authentic demonic possession as the Catholic Church is. Just an example…

If the Church claims that her teachings are led by the Holy Spirit then I would expect something more solid than that. For example, if slavery were truly wrong, then the Holy Spirit would have always taught the Church that it were wrong. It would not have taught something different at the time it were in practice. It sounds to me like the abolitionists were more in tune with the HS than the Church was at the time.

Were they? Yet we have already discussed this and the context of the NT is not supportive of either position, so then the church is free to decry slavery and yet to counsel peace and dignity and respect between slaves and owners…which is one reason that the Catholic Church speaks out against human trafficking.

You need much more careful study of Pope Francis remarks and writings as well as the Bible and the teachings of the Catholic faith.

I can assure you that walking away from it will be one of the very worst mistakes of your life even as it was for me. See My Testimony

 

[eamonnroma]

Catholicism is the fullness of faith.
There one can find all the tools you need in your toolbox to get to heaven.

Yes, but not Roman Catholicism - there are many catholic churches which include the orthodox churches. The Roman church does not have a monopoly on salvation.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Catholicism is the fullness of faith.
There one can find all the tools you need in your toolbox to get to heaven.
I’ll never understand why people think that some people are just clueless and don’t deserve heaven. I pray that all can live in eternal bliss with God.

Nobody deserves heaven. Remember, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

Make an appointment with your pastor, and speak to him about this. You’re not the first person to ask questions. That’s what he’s there for.
Be assured of our prayers.

What priest could possibly have the time to meet with me in their busy schedules?

 

[CompSciGuy]

God is merciful, that’s how they can be saved.
We don’t know the limits of God’s mercy, do we? We hope for all. I do.
OF COURSE the Church wants you to have all the tools to secure salvation.
Those can be found within the teachings of the Church that Christ Himself founded.
This is the mission…to guide people in holiness and Christian life so that we can attain heaven.
Do those of other denominations go to heaven? Probably. I certainly would hope so, for their sake. I would also hope that many come to the richness of the Catholic Church.
The Eucharist!
You have to remember the context in which those early documents were written. The Church has always fought heresy, ignorance, and just plain laziness upon the part of the faithful. Strong words have always been used.
St. Paul had really strong words for people. Times were dire. Some would argue that they still are.
Teachings have not “changed” so much as we now have a fuller understanding as God reveals His mercy to us. The Church is a living organism, not a mausoleum of old documents. If it was, we not have any theologians to read, or any saints to follow after the death of Christ.

So you say that Protestants are most likely going to heaven, but as a Catholic I need to secure my salvation? That doesn’t make any sense.

 

[7_Sorrows]

As one who wasted over 30 years outside the church I would have to tell you that that is a terrible idea. I urge you to prayerfully rethink in the context of the following information.
My Testimony
It’s NOT in the Bible, okay?
Does the Bible teach that everything that we believe and practice has to be found in its pages? That would be because the fundamental doctrine of Sola Scriptura is nowhere to be found in the Word of God. Only in the context of Sacred Tradition and the well informed (over 2,000 years worth) Catholic Church does any true interpretation take place. Essentially, you need to decide if you are willing to settle for something less than the fullness of truth. I am not , that’s for sure. Jesus said that He is the truth, and the fullness of truth can only bring us closer to Him.
It seems to me that you are only reading Pope Francis in news reports instead of reading him ver batim and in context. Look over in Apologetics where I hang out. We constantly examine papal writings and news reports and you soon see a difference…and be better informed.

You need to pay careful attention at Mass. Why do you think the consecration plainly says***?***
***Take this, all of you, and drink from it,
for this is the chalice of my Blood,
the Blood of the new and eternal covenant,
which will be poured out for you and for many
for the forgiveness of sins.
Do this in memory of me.

***“For many” (pro multis in Latin) is precisely what the church and Pope Francis teaches and has always taught. The blood of Christ was shed for all mankind…but not all will receive it, and so not all will be saved.
(Cont’d)

like your testimony!