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dragon
Guest
I would pose a question. The Ten Commandments are listed in the Bible in at least 2 different places. My question is why do Catholics list the Commandments differently than what is in the Bible??
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PeterK
Guest
dragon,
Check out this link on COL.
The True Ten Commandments
A Catholic Apologia for their Content and Arrangement
By Fr. Michael Wensing
It’s a start anyway.
Peter K
Check out this link on COL.
The True Ten Commandments
A Catholic Apologia for their Content and Arrangement
By Fr. Michael Wensing
It’s a start anyway.
Peter K
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ejb21
Guest
Hi dragon
#2066 of the CCC states : the division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism folloes the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
Hope this helps.
#2066 of the CCC states : the division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. The present catechism folloes the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
Hope this helps.
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MonFrere
Guest
I will also note that the Catechism has commentary on EVERY PHRASE of the commandments - just to demonstrate that the Catholic Church is not trying to ignore the OT view of idols. I think the Church and her theology of the ramifications of the Incarnation is STRENGTHENED by emphasizing the OT prohibition of idols in it allowance of icons as reminders of those who lived holy lives - in the case of the Blessed Virgin, an immaculate life - and in the case of Jesus, a divine life. In other words - God becoming man MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE in the way we understand the world and the life had tremendous ramifications. Too often Protestant traditions - with their extremely literal way of viewing things get trapped into a literalism that becomes a brick wall as to FULLY understand the Incarnation and the salvation and new creation that Jesus Christ brought to mankind.
MonFrere
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dragon
Guest
Thanks Peter,
You have to have a starting point in a religion. According to the church it starts with the Bible. The Catholic Church broke off/grow out of the Jewish religion. The Jews had a Bible. Within in it contained the Ten Commandments. These can not change, these are the TRUE words of God. So if one changes them they are not the words of God and have no value.
Please do not send me to words of someone that is just adding their views of what God said or his intentions. They hold no more weight than any other words that were not God’s. Tradition holds no value if they are based on false assumptions.
Dragon
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dragon
Guest
Does not the Ten Commandments state that one will have no idols?? Yet you pray to these idols. Sounds to me something in your religion has gone amiss.
Dragon
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dragon
Guest
How can one even think about changing God’s words around?? They were set down as laws. Can one just on a whim change laws?? You state in the quote that over the course of time they have changed more than once. Am I then to assume that God’s words change or did he not really know what he was saying?? Show me in the Bible where it says man can change God’s words.
Dragon
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crazzeto
Guest
I think the point is that we didn’t change the word of God at all, I think this is what you seem to have missed in the webpage:
St. Agustine, one of the early church fathers who knew directly the Apostolic faith arranged the 10 commandments out of Deuteronomy. Because of this, the ordering and some commandments end up being different than they are if you form your commandments from Exodus. The word of God wasn’t changed, the difference is that the OT presents 2 different sets of commandments (both written by Moses). The Church fathers understood the later recording to be more reflective of God’s true commandments.
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ejb21
Guest
ok dragon, I should have known better.
I thought you were asking a question, but what you really want is an argument.
Show me in the bible where it says Luther can change the words of St. Paul.
I thought you were asking a question, but what you really want is an argument.
Show me in the bible where it says Luther can change the words of St. Paul.
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MonFrere
Guest
Show me, in the Bible the NT Church had that …
a) had the authority to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday
b) the authority to change the rite of circumcision to the rite of baptism
c) the authority to abrogate one word of Old Covenant Law
d) the authority to add to scripture (the New Testament).
This was all done by the authority that Jesus invested in His Church. The same authority took a differing view concerning icons. The reason was THE INCARNATION. I don’t have time to explain now, maybe later, or one of my Catholic colleagues can do that for me.
Best,
MonFrere
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Joe_5859
Guest
Did you actually want your question answered or have you merely come to prosyletize those who attempt to help you? 
You have come to a Catholic website and posted a question. Do not then be surprised to hear answers from a Catholic perspective.
Here is another article that is helpful if you are honestly seeking an answer to your question:
The Division of the Ten Commandments
The Catholic Church has not “abandoned” or “eliminated” any Commandment. They simply divide it up differently. The “false idols” Commandment is a corollary of the First Commandment. And coveting a neighbor’s property is separated into a different Commandment from coveting his wife (which makes sense as someone’s wife is in a bit of a different category than a piece of property, don’t you think?)
You have come to a Catholic website and posted a question. Do not then be surprised to hear answers from a Catholic perspective.
Here is another article that is helpful if you are honestly seeking an answer to your question:
The Division of the Ten Commandments
The Catholic Church has not “abandoned” or “eliminated” any Commandment. They simply divide it up differently. The “false idols” Commandment is a corollary of the First Commandment. And coveting a neighbor’s property is separated into a different Commandment from coveting his wife (which makes sense as someone’s wife is in a bit of a different category than a piece of property, don’t you think?)
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dragon
Guest
Dear ejb21,
You are probably correct in part. I do question your church. I do not question your basic beliefs. To me religion is different than Church. I do feel that your church has strayed from the true religion. I can do this by using my mind that is according to you a God given gift. I do feel that your church is full of idols and that separates you from a true loving relationship with god. I do not promote any religion over another. How one believes in their god is very personal. This is off topic.
St. Paul was not a god. You might say that he spoke with the authority of god. And you would say the same thing about your Pope.
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geometer
Guest
The first commandment of the decalogue is Exodus 20:1-2. The catholic church rejects these.
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crazzeto
Guest
St. Augustine, the Early Christians and the Church today feel that when moses Pened the commandments a second time, that it must have been because he felt there was need to pen something closer to what God was commanding. It’s not a question of rejecting commandments, it’s a question of looking at what (appear) to be conflicting sets of commandments, and making sense of them.
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crazzeto
Guest
So you reject
Most specifically regarding your assertion that “we have strayed…”. The “catholic ten commandments” are thee ten commandments that have been taught since the days of the Early Church. We most certainly haven’t altered our teaching since St. Augustain. “Your” ten commandments, on the other hand, were a new innovation as of the 1600’s. I feel pretty confident in arguing that the Catholic Church in fact, has not strayed at all from the teachings of the Early Chruch.
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PeterK
Guest
dragon,
You registered on a Roman Catholic forum.
You posted a question on a Roman Catholic forum.
In doing this, you, in essence asked Roman Catholics what they thought about something.
You received a Roman Catholic answer.
And this surprises you?
Really, sincerely, what were you expecting?
If you walk in and place an order at a Olive Garden you are not going to be served Red Lobster. No refund.
Peter K
Please be reasonable.
You registered on a Roman Catholic forum.
You posted a question on a Roman Catholic forum.
In doing this, you, in essence asked Roman Catholics what they thought about something.
You received a Roman Catholic answer.
And this surprises you?
Really, sincerely, what were you expecting?
If you walk in and place an order at a Olive Garden you are not going to be served Red Lobster. No refund.
Peter K
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geometer
Guest
Why didn’t he ask a Rabbi? Jesus said to ask the Rabbis if you have a question about the Torah.
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crazzeto
Guest
Jesus was a Rabbi… A very speacial one, the only in history who was god. Because of this secondary fact, Jesus, after the crusifixion and resurection was able to come to Soul while he was on his way to murder yet more Christians, and interceed. He blinded Soul, asked him why he was “persecuting me”. After this expeirence, and being converted Soul became Paul, who wrote these texts.
God Chose Paul, do you not think that his opinion carry’s more weight than a Rabbi who clearly (because he was a Rabbi) rejects Christ?
Edit
Whoa, sorry I think my answer was accidently off base. I still had Paul in mind, I beleive you are refering to Augstine. I sincirly appologize for that part. For the real answer, probably because the Jews reject Christ, as well as Christians, in fact they would not so much as allow a Christian to worship in their temples.
More over, Agustine, like Paul is a Saint. Being a Saint means you are in heaven. Would he have gotten to heaven, if he was so dreadfully wrong about a teaching which would become core Christian teaching for over ~1,100 years before the protistant reformation? Particularly when Christs answer to “what good work must I do to get into heaven” was “keep the commandments”
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geometer
Guest
Saul did not edit the commandments into the Roman catholic version… You have admitted
that the error was made by Saint Agustine.
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dragon
Guest
Dear crazzeto,
My intention is not to fight with your beliefs but to have open minds. To do this I would have to really go off topic and that would serve no purpose here. I noticed in one response above that stated that the church throw out the first ten and that Moses penned them. I do not know if the person meant to say that that way or not.
If man penned things then how can they be the word of God??
I was brought up in the Lutheran faith but have found my way from that so you assuming what my belief in the Ten is, is assuming a lot.
Dragon
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