Ten Commandments

[crazzeto]

Saul did not edit the commandments into the Roman catholic version… You have admitted

that the error was made by Saint Agustine.

I corrected, and edited my post. Yes, it was Agustine who correctly resolved the apparent conflict of there being 11 commandments when there should be 10 (reading the full bible together, using a literalist interpitive model)

 

[geometer]

If man penned things then how can they be the word of God??

The commandments were written by the finger of God on stone tables, twice.

 

[geometer]

I corrected, and edited my post. Yes, it was Agustine who correctly resolved the apparent conflict of there being 11 commandments when there should be 10 (reading the full bible together, using a literalist interpitive model)

It was a foolish argument, because the bible states that there are ten, and the Rabbis have never been confused about that.

 

[crazzeto]

Dear crazzeto,

My intention is not to fight with your beliefs but to have open minds. To do this I would have to really go off topic and that would serve no purpose here. I noticed in one response above that stated that the church throw out the first ten and that Moses penned them. I do not know if the person meant to say that that way or not.

Moses penned both Exodus and Deuteronomy. Reading both, using your interpetive model there must be 11 commandments, with one missing from Exodus. But is that really the case? I can’t beleive that, neither did Augustine. Regarding your intentions, I’m sorry but go back and read your posts, and honestly answer the question “did I not expect a response?”.

If man penned things then how can they be the word of God??

Read my originally misguided answer to Geometer, God chose Paul, in a powerfully unique way. Ultimitally the whole of the bible was penned by man, none by God. So if you reject that God is capable of uniquily inspiring and choosing a few men, to Pen scripture as his own divine words, then how can you trust any of the bible? It’s all penned by man! If you don’t beleive it, then I suggest you buy a book written by a Protestant about the bible:

Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church

I was brought up in the Lutheran faith but have found my way from that so you assuming what my belief in the Ten is, is assuming a lot.

Dragon

 

[crazzeto]

It was a foolish argument, because the bible states that there are ten, and the Rabbis have never been confused about that.

It’s not foolish, Deutoronomy adds a Commandment, do not covet your neighbor’s wife. There is one “extra” commandment in there which isn’t a commandment at all. Again, both were penned by the same man.

 

[geometer]

It’s not foolish, Deutoronomy adds a Commandment, do not covet your neighbor’s wife. There is one “extra” commandment in there which isn’t a commandment at all. Again, both were penned by the same man.

No, you are wrong. Do not covet your neighbors wife is part of the tenth commandment. Exodus 20 is considered completely authoritive. The repetition in Deuteronomy it thought to have been from memory, hence the differences.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Of course the telling point is that some, like dragon, appear to feel that saints and ‘statues’ are idols. They are not.

Do I, for example, think that a statue of St. Paul, or of the Virgin Mary, is god or a god/goddess, capable in its godhood of granting me that which only God can give? Do I offer to that statue the worship due to god/goddess?

No. A statue is just a statue. Like the cherished pictures of my father (rest his soul), my mother, siblings, and children (still among the living), a statue is a representation of a loved one. No more, and no less. Only GOD is God; only HE is Creator, only HE can ultimately DO for us what we --AND THE SAINTS–pray for Him to do.

Iconoclassicism, that pestilential heresy, was dealt with about 13 centuries ago very forcefully by the entire Christian community (that’s Catholics and all our Orthodox brothers and sisters whose icons appear magically to escape condemnation or notice) then. It keeps on popping up amongst the ‘let’s simplify it’ crowds every generation or so. Dragon is just one from the latest generation of the 'if it’s not in the Bible OR not done by MY PARTICULAR PASTOR, it just ain’t Christian" crowd.

Dragon, people have been criticizing our Lord and His followers for millennia now. We can take it. It’s only tiresome at times fighting the same old stuff simply because some wide-eyed and wet-behind-the-ears zealots swallow that same old stuff and think they are the FIRST to ‘see’ the ‘reality’. There is a measure of comfort of a sort in that obviously Satan would rather have those who truly love Christ (as I am sure dragon does) at odds with Christ’s True Church, as it would certainly be more devilishly ‘amusing’ to turn a Christian into an anti-Catholic Christian rather than to take any already nonChristian, non-practicing, or indifferent person and make them anti-Catholic. So satisfying to Satan to twist and distort and make dragon feel that he is doing God’s work in 'fighting those awful Catholics". . .and so sad to God and indeed to any Christian, or to any person who longs for good/God even without recognizing Him. . .

 

[crazzeto]

No, you are wrong. Do not covet your neighbors wife is part of the tenth commandment. Exodus 20 is considered completely authoritive. The repetition in Deuteronomy it thought to have been from memory, hence the differences.

I disagree completely on your point here, so did St. Augistine and the sum total of all Christidome at least until some time after the protistant reformation started. I find it hard to beleive the whole of Christianity was just wrong for that long. More over, your points aren’t even valid with in the entire protestant relm, Luther never rejected the “original” (per early christian teaching) commandments.

 

[geometer]

I disagree completely on your point here, so did St. Augistine and the sum total of all Christidome at least until some time after the protistant reformation started. I find it hard to beleive the whole of Christianity was just wrong for that long.

They did not ask the Rabbis, it is an open and shut case…

 

[juliamajor]

They did not ask the Rabbis, it is an open and shut case…

In traditional rabbinic Judaism 13 commandments were derived from the Decalogue( the ten Words)reference "Sefer ha Hinnukh) not ten .

 

[geometer]

In traditional rabbinic Judaism 13 commandments were derived from the Decalogue( the ten Words)reference "Sefer ha Hinnukh) not ten .

No, I asked a Rabbi. Rabbi Menachem said that there are only ten commandemnts, this has always been true, and it is noted in the scriptures that there are ten. However, there are more than ten utterances of God within the decalogue. There are more that twenty complete thoughts, which are called mitzvot. The commandments are called dawbar… A dawbar means word, which is an ordering related to the word for bee, who lives an orderly life, Deborah.

 

[PeterK]

dragon,
Please consider the following.

Matt 19:17-20
[Jesus said] “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

He [young man] asked him, “Which ones?”

And Jesus replied, "
[1] You shall not kill
[2] you shall not commit adultery
[3] you shall not steal
[4] you shall not bear false witness
[5] honor your father and your mother
and
[6] you shall love your neighbor as yourself."

The young man said to him, “All of these I have observed.”

Mark 10:17-20
“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Jesus answered him, “… You know the commandments:
[1]You shall not kill;
[2]you shall not commit adultery;
[3]you shall not steal;
[4]you shall not bear false witness;
[5]you shall not defraud;
[6]honor your father and your mother.’”

He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.”

What is Jesus doing here?
Why 6 and not 10?
Why these 6?
Dare we infer the commandments not listed are rescinded by Jesus?
Why are Matt and Mark’s lists of 6 different? Did one of them misquote Jesus? Does this mean one of the lists is wrong? And then does this mean one of the Gospels is not entirely true? And then does this mean because error exists this Gospel is not inspired by the Holy Spirit who is perfect and cannot err?

I would sincerely like your views on this. I just threw those questions out to get the juices flowing - ignore them if you wish - I’m not grilling you. Answer any way you see fit.

peace

Peter K

 

[crazzeto]

Why didn’t he ask a Rabbi? Jesus said to ask the Rabbis if you have a question about the Torah.

Rabbi = “Teacher”

Jesus said, ask a Teacher. Teachers in the Christian tradition are people we call priests. St. Augustine was a Bishop, Bishops are priests. He was a teacher, or priest or Rabbi.

 

[juliamajor]

No, I asked a Rabbi. Rabbi Menachem said that there are only ten commandemnts, this has always been true, and it is noted in the scriptures that there are ten. However, there are more than ten utterances of God within the decalogue. There are more that twenty complete thoughts, which are called mitzvot. The commandments are called dawbar… A dawbar means word, which is an ordering related to the word for bee, who lives an orderly life, Deborah.

Other rabbis other opinions,orthodox thought differs from Reformed this is a book of 13th a.d. exegetes-you cannot deny that it has been said because it has.from nahum Sarna"The popular English title"The Ten Commandments" is derived from a traditional, although inaccurate,English rendering of the Hebrew phrase 'aseret ha-devarim" that appears in Exodus 34:28 and in DT 4:13 and 10:4.In fact the term"commandment"(Heb.mitzvah,pl.mitsvot) is not employed in the present context. The Hebrew rather means the Ten Words which the Jews of Alexandria in Egypt translated Literally into greek as deka logoi.This gave rise to the more accurate term the Decalogue…etc.

 

[juliamajor]

Also from Sarna:"while these broad ,basic divisions are clear and convincing,less obvious is the manner in which the number Ten was attained.Here their are various traditions that center on (1) whether verse 2 is an independent declaration on par with the others or simply an introduction to the entire document;and (2) whether verses 3 and 4 are treated as a single item or as two distinct commandments.On each of these issues, rabbinic tradition favors the first.This is reasonable given the understanding of “aseret ha devarim” as “ten divine pronouncements’.Another approach is taken by Philo of Alexandria in his work on the Decalogue, and by Josephus;both refelect early Jewish traditions that make verse 3 the first commandment and verse 4-6 as the second.Roman Catholic and Luteran traditions interpret verse 3-6 as the first and divide verse 14(17) into two commandments.It should noted that from verse 13 on there are differences in the numbering in many editions of the bible.”
It is total nonsense that only a demagogue would make a fuss over.Traditions differ so do translation verse and numbering what the heck is so all fired important about it ? or does it just give some people a venue to air their bigotries with impunity.

 

[geometer]

It is total nonsense that only a demagogue would make a fuss over.Traditions differ so do translation verse and numbering what the heck is so all fired important about it ? or does it just give some people a venue to air their bigotries with impunity.

I have no idea, what you mean. The first commandment is the first two verses of Exodus 20.

We all know that catholicism rejects that commandment, and you say it has something to do with bigotry. Well, define it any way you like, but I must respect the Rabbis oppinion. I have no idea why you were able to find that odd document. That would be just another question for a Rabbi to answer.

 

[juliamajor]

Thank you - you made my point so aptly.!
My document is not “odd” because it doesn’t agree with you or because you don’t know of it. Nahum sarna who I quote has written several books on Exodus and is considered one of “the” experts on Exodus.To bad you are not familiar with him.There are many books of his I would recommend to you.
Rabbis are not infallible and can be just as ignorant as ministers and priests.A lot of how scripture is discerned in Judaism and exegeted has to do with which branch of Judaism you belong
If you want to come against Catholicism please something original and unique .This horse has been beaten to death and shown a multitude of times to be just rubbish .Same hackneyed tripe that has been spewed for generations-how sad.
Please try something original next time- this dog won’t hunt-he’s too damned worn out.

PS. Verses and chapters are not part of the original text but the product of a much later era.The have no rhyme or reason- they were just their to make text less cumbersome and easier to quote. They are not there to lend importance to a particular verse or chapter.So the tempest in the teapot is ridiculous.

 

[geometer]

Thank you - you made my point so aptly.!
My document is not “odd” because it doesn’t agree with you or because you don’t know of it. Nahum sarna who I quote has written several books on Exodus and is considered one of “the” experts on Exodus.To bad you are not familiar with him.There are many books of his I would recommend to you.
Rabbis are not infallible and can be just as ignorant as ministers and priests.A lot of how scripture is discerned in Judaism and exegeted has to do with which branch of Judaism you belong
If you want to come against Catholicism please something original and unique .This horse has been beaten to death and shown a multitude of times to be just rubbish .Same hackneyed tripe that has been spewed for generations-how sad.
Please try something original next time- this dog won’t hunt-he’s too damned worn out.

I was just pointing out that catholicism had come against Judaism on this issue a long time ago. Far be it from me to come against catholicism, I am not a confirmed member of any religion, and I think that is a good thing.

I can see that your love for catholicism leads to disrespect others. That seems like an unhealthy thing in my oppinion. Holding a grudge makes you unworthy before God.

 

[geometer]

PS. Verses and chapters are not part of the original text but the product of a much later era.The have no rhyme or reason- they were just their to make text less cumbersome and easier to quote. They are not there to lend importance to a particular verse or chapter.So the tempest in the teapot is ridiculous.

It seems obvious that you have not read the first two verses, and yes the Rabbis did read the text before it was numbered.

 

[juliamajor]

I was just pointing out that catholicism had come against Judaism on this issue a long time ago. Far be it from me to come against catholicism, I am not a confirmed member of any religion, and I think that is a good thing.

I can see that your love for catholicism leads to disrespect others. That seems like an unhealthy thing in my oppinion. Holding a grudge makes you unworthy before God.

What you said about Catholics and Catholicism was disrespectful-should you be immune from criticism? I disrespect no person but I might disrespect what they say.
What is unhealthy is no introspection…
I don’t believe in grudges and have never held one. I dislike and hate no one- but I will come against what i consider to be wrong.
Unworthy? Hell ,I know that! But still loved!
And i have to say that was a real cheap shot and unworthy of you.