What I am specifically asking for is what the church Fathers have said regarding the specific passage you posted. I thought I made that pretty clear. After we establish the facts regarding that passage we can move on to others if you wish.
You’re conclusion is wrong. Jesus in these passages is reminding Peter, IN FRONT OF ALL THE APOSTLES, to remember what was done in Mt 16:18… And these passages from John, are most assuradly for our education as well. Jesus knew there would be contention for the office He set up for Peter, therefore Jesus adds these passages for good measure.I thought you’d never ask
John 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus says to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He says to him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I am attached to thee. He says to him, Feed my lambs.
The words, “lovest thou me more than these?”, serve as a reminder of Peter’s self-confident words, “If all shall be offended in thee, I will never be offended”, “If I should needs die with thee, I will in no wise deny thee” (Matthew 26:33-35), and, “Lord, with thee I am ready to go both to prison and to death” (Luke 22:33). We see that Peter has grown in humility since then as he does not dare answer in a manner that puts himself before the others as he had done so before.
The threefold question, “lovest thou me?”, corresponds to the threefold renunciation by Peter, whom at this point the Lord no longer calls “Peter”, but “Simon”, his former name. The fact that Peter was grieved after the Lord’s third question would be completely inexplicable if we were to understand this conversation as Christ placing Peter at the head of His church, yet it is completely understandable if Peter had seen in the Lord’s words a reminder of his renunciation. It is also hard to reconcile the supremacy of Peter with the manner in which Jesus speaks to him shortly after in verse 22, “If I will that he abide until I come, what [is that] to thee? Follow thou me”. It is rather odd that Jesus would speak in such a manner to the one he had just assigned as His vicar and prince of the Apostles.
The interpretation that lambs are the lay people and sheep are the leaders of the church is altogether arbitrary and has no support at all among the church Fathers The words sheep and lambs are indifferently used in Holy Scripture to describe the same object:
“Go: behold I send you forth as lambs in the midst of wolves”(Luke 10:3)
“Behold, I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves”(Matt 10:16)
Speaking to the faithful in 1Peter 2:25 Peter says, “For ye were going astray as sheep, but have now returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls”
So you see from Scripture that it is not possible to give different meanings to the words sheep and lambs, nor to interpret the word sheep in the sense of pastors or clergy. If you feel we must give them different meanings, it would be more natural to assume they refer to those who are mature or young in the faith respectively.
Sorry, but there is no support for papal supremacy in this passage. (You did ask)
John.
It’s not either/or. It’s both referring to the other apostles, and their lives as fisherman.
In context??? Jesus IS king of kings, and lord of lords. Through HIM all things were made. And now the one who spoke and all things came into existence, says to Peter, the one whom He says He will build His Church on, and give the keys of the kingdom to, to rule His Church. Good grief!!! Who’s gonna argue with THAT!!!
No, I used Greek Lexicons, and quoted directly from them. This is not a matter of pulling words out of a hat.
You are saying that Peter is King? Peter is the subject of poimaino, not Christ.
Obviously you must be well acquanted with all the subtleties and nuances of the Greek language for you to continue to insist on this in the face of what experienced Greek philologists understand.
On second thoughts, you don’t even seem to have a firm grasp on the English language. “Lexicon” is another word for “dictionary” and is in fact the Greek word for “dictionary”.
Sorry Maria if I seemed to push the issue. I may have responded initially to you but once other people get involved I find that I often have to address their responses too. I tend to be wary of personal revelation. Only those people who have mastered their passions can receive clear revelation through the Holy Spirit without it being tainted by their own pride and personal views. For the rest of us who still fail daily in our struggle to control our pride/anger/lust/greed etc. it is next to impossible for us to discern whether such revelation comes from the Holy Spirit or from another source so it it very important that we determine if it is indeed what has been taught by the church from the beginning. Even when we find that our revelation is in fact true, we need to guard against spiritual pride, for the devil likes nothing more than to make us think we are more spiritually advanced than we actually are.
i didn’t say it was “either/or” , but there is always a focused meaning (what was originally intended or perceived) and then an abstract meaning (something useful that can be gained through a different interpretation of the original words). it is fairly obvious that, in the moment, Jesus is speaking of the great catch and peter’s life as a fisherman. all the other interpretations (many useful and not far-fetched) come second to that.
Not really, but when the church fathers do write on particular passages and don’t mention anything remotely like the interpretation you have given I tend to get suspicious. Saint Augustine for example refers to this passage in John’s Gospel quite a lot and none of what he writes supports your view. I’m working my way through Saint John Chrysostom’s works and haven’t found it there either. Then I’ll work my way through Jerome, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cyprian of Carthage, however I suspect that I will still come up empty. I’ll let you know in a few days.
Did I say that? No. I said that the King of Kings told Peter to shepherd, tend, and rule His Church.
Jesus, God incarnate, singles Peter out in front of the other apostles and tells “Peter” to shepherd, tend, rule His Church. It goes with building His Church on Peter and giving Peter the keys to the kingdom [Mt 16:18…]. Poimaino means, shepherd, tend, AND rule… that’s the definition of poimaino. And we see this played out in history.
That’s why I went to a **Greek Lexicon **for the definition.
Go with God, Steve.
Mind if I ask which one(s)
I was raised Episcopal and have since found my place in the non-denominational churches. I believe that it is our duty as brothers and sisters in Christ to witness to or “feed” the “lambs” which are the non-christians and children. We learn this from Luke 9:
