Tend my sheep: John 21:15-17

[MariaG]

Thanks, wisdom, it is an interesting passage. I see Jesus as reminding and giving Peter the responsibility all over Scripture. The Keys, feed the sheep… Still no idea on what the Orthodox see on the ECF. No response. Ahh. Life outside the forums!

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[Myhrr]

## It depends what is meant by “papal supremacy” - IMO you’ve made a good case, in your two consecutive posts, for a Petrine office; which I assume is something different from “papal supremacy”.

?? We must be reading Prodromos differently. As far as the RCPC is concerned the petrine office is one of supremacy, but even taking the petrine office to be one of primacy of honour, which the Orthodox don’t hold either, this, as noted by Prodromos, is ruled out by Christ:

Prodromos:

It is also hard to reconcile the supremacy of Peter with the manner in which Jesus speaks to him shortly after in verse 22, “If I will that he abide until I come, what [is that] to thee? Follow thou me”. It is rather odd that Jesus would speak in such a manner to the one he had just assigned as His vicar and prince of the Apostles.

Christ told Peter to mind his own business, which was to follow Christ; He doesn’t give Peter any primacy at all over or among the other apostles, not here, not anywhere in the Gospels and nowhere in Holy Scripture does Peter claim it. And if Peter was peeved that Paul spoke with authority from his encounter with the risen Christ then Peter was brought back to Christ’s reality for him. This is remembered in the icons written by the Church which show both Peter and Paul together holding the Church.

Holy Scripture and Church history would make a lot more sense if you accepted that old Rome went on a petrine trip of its own - the other Churches with petrine succession stayed with apostolic tradition here. Ignorance of this is common to both East and West, as the Churches in the West were taken over by old Rome the apostolic traditions of the Church as kept in the East were hidden from view, as were hidden from the East most of the moves the RCPC made as it expanded its jurisdictional area.

 

[MariaG]

Hi Myhrr,

Could you please help me to understand your view? On post #75 I posted ECF. Could you please give me your take on it?

Thanks,

Maria

 

[MariaG]

This was actually on another thread, for those who are not reading it, I’ll post it here also. There was a desire from our Orthodox brethren to show an ECF who said tend is rule. Steve B. posted this:

**St. John Chrysostom,

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, and*as intrusted by Christ with the flock …he first acts with authority in the matter, as ******having all put into his hands *; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. **(Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)
newadvent.org/fathers/210103.htm

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ’ ‘Simon, Simon,’ etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: ‘Simon, Simon, etc.’ (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in John 5). And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15***). ***He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18).
newadvent.org/fathers/240173.htm

And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproaches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, …and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, ’How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,’ this I would answer thatHe appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world.(Chrysostom, In John. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii) newadvent.org/fathers/240188.htm

Prodmos wanted patristic evidence for “rule” as a definition of “poimaino” in Jn 21:15… Primacy of Peter as well.

Your sister in Christ,
Maria

 

[prodromos]

**St. John Chrysostom,

In those days Peter rose up in the midst of the disciples (Acts 15), both as being ardent, andas intrusted by Christ with the flock …he first acts with authority in the matter*, as ******having all put into his hands ***; for to him Christ said, 'And thou, being converted, confirm thy brethren. (Chrysostom, Hom. iii Act Apost. tom. ix.)
newadvent.org/fathers/210103.htm

This quote does not support Peter being “ruler” of the flock, though it does clearly point out Peter’s role of supporting his brethren.

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ’ ‘Simon, Simon,’ etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2). God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: ‘Simon, Simon, etc.’ (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in John 5). And why, then, passing by the others, does He converse with Peter on these things? (John 21:15***). ***He was the chosen one of the Apostles, and the mouth of the disciples, and the leader of the choir. On this account, Paul also went up on a time to see him rather than the others (Galatians 1:18).
newadvent.org/fathers/240173.htm

The former part of this quote does not exist anywhere in Chrysostom’s writings and the second part is not in the link provided.

And withal, to show him that he must thenceforward have confidence, as the denial was done away with, He puts into his hands the presidency over the brethren. And He brings not forward the denial, nor reproaches him with what had past, but says, 'If you love me, preside over the brethren, …and the third time He gives him the same injunction, showing what a price He sets the presidency over His own sheep. And if one should say, ’How then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?,’ this I would answer thatHe appointed this man (Peter) teacher, not of that throne, but of the whole world.(Chrysostom, In John. Hom. 1xxxviii. n. 1, tom. viii) newadvent.org/fathers/240188.htm

I can only assume that these quote have been translated from the Latin versions since the words translated as “preside” and “presidency” carry a much deeper meaning of “help/support” and “helper/supporter” which is totally lost in this translation. The same word is used to describe Phoebe in the latter part of Romans 16:2.

John

 

[prodromos]

St. John Chrysostom,

He passed over his fall, and appointed him first of the Apostles; wherefore He said: ’ ‘Simon, Simon,’ etc. (in Ps. cxxix. 2).

God allowed him to fall, because He meant to make him ruler over the whole world, that, remembering his own fall, he might forgive those who should slip in the future. And that what I have said is no guess, listen to Christ Himself saying: ‘Simon, Simon, etc.’ (Chrys, Hom. quod frequenter conveniendum sit 5, cf. Hom 73 in John 5).
My sincere apologies to MariaG and to Steve B who had originally posted the quote. I stated that it did not exist in any of St John Chrysostom’s works but I have since found it after much searching in the Greek (I still have not found an English translation of the text online).

To all who took me at my word, I apologise for not being more diligent in confirming my sources before posting.

John.