Terrorism Is Alien to Islam

[pro_universal]

Not the ones who stand out in front of Catholic churches parading signs with lovely sentiments like “Behead those who insult Islam”.

Are you?

Yep, I sure am. And so are the Muslims currently serving in the armed forces, including Muslims who risk their lives to serve America in Iraq.

No, the problem (again) is that their actions (parading signs calling for beheadment, rioting, burning down buildings, blowing up cars, demanding special treatment) speak louder than their words (which are, for the most part, total silence).

Well, are you saying that all those Muslims who’re risking their lives in the American army as we type this are the same as these folks? Or are you calling them false-worshippers?

 

[pro_universal]

But it is the moderate muslims who says the less the 1% of the muslims population are extremists. What about the muslims we see on televison in a lot of Arab countries marching and insulting the christian religion? Why can’t we seethe so called 90% plus peaceful muslims?

Because you’re not looking.

 

[Booklover]

Pro, on another thread, you stated that we should be more “conciliatory” towards Islam. In what way??

 

[cestusdei]

In England 15% of Muslims would NOT turn in someone they knew was planning a terrorist act. I am betting that is a low number. I have yet to see hundreds of thousands of so-called moderates protesting terrorism. But I did see them celebrate 911 and burn the pope in effigy.

 

[pro_universal]

Pro, on another thread, you stated that we should be more “conciliatory” towards Islam. In what way??

I don’t believe I’ve ever stated that.

I don’t think we should be conciliatory…I think we should look honestly at what Muslims believe and what challenges they face.

You don’t need to be a peacenik to see that Islam condemns terrorism; you just need to be intellectually honest.

 

[pro_universal]

In England 15% of Muslims would NOT turn in someone they knew was planning a terrorist act. I am betting that is a low number. I have yet to see hundreds of thousands of so-called moderates protesting terrorism. But I did see them celebrate 911 and burn the pope in effigy.

Remember when the poster Muslim gave you photos of enormous Bangladeshi crowds protesting terrorism?

You’ve already seen it. You just aren’t honest enough to admit that it’s there.

 

[ferdie]

quote=pro_universal;1521092]I have done the research. I am telling you right now that if you go looking, you will spend a long time trying to find an Islamic group that doesn’t condemn terror.

Almost every single one does.

I rejected Catholicism, I am studying more about Islam. The fact that I don’t accept it doesn’t mean you can’t go and find some information to support your claim, nor does it mean that I can’t claim something about the religion’s adherents.

These statements are public…almost every last muslim organization on the planet condemns terrorism. My beliefs and your beliefs do not in any way alter that fact.

If you want to keep claiming that it doesn’t, just go ahead and find a Muslim organization that doesn’t.

EDIT: Here’s a long list of condemnations to get you started: unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

Maybe the media is hiding these “almost every last muslim organization” that speaks out against terrorism? It is funny though that just last weekend, one news commentator was talking about looking for these moderate msulims and let them speak out.
Maybe you are right that they are speaking out. But maybe you can tell them to organize a big rally for the world to see that they are against the violence perpetrated by the their muslim brothers. Instead of a small talk here and small talk there. Peaceful muslims should unite and show the world that we have a common enemy.

 

[cestusdei]

Oh I’ve seen crowds. Burning our flag, calling for the pope’s death etc. But they don’t condemn terrorism against us. We are kaffir to them. Ask them to condemn hezbullah, a terrorist group. They won’t do it. Bait and switch. We have yet to see a truly authoritative fatwa against Osama.

 

[estesbob]

Because you’re not looking.

I have seen the occasional demonstation by Muslims protesting terrorsim but they are few and far between.

 

[pro_universal]

Maybe the media is hiding these “almost every last muslim organization” that speaks out against terrorism? It is funny though that just last weekend, one news commentator was talking about looking for these moderate msulims and let them speak out.
Maybe you are right that they are speaking out. But maybe you can tell them to organize a big rally for the world to see that they are against the violence perpetrated by the their muslim brothers. Instead of a small talk here and small talk there. Peaceful muslims should unite and show the world that we have a common enemy.

I just posted a link above with condemnations, lists of them.

They’re out there, you’re just not looking.

Another question: Where were the huge protests by Christians against Eric Rudolph? Can you show me a single street-demonstration against his terrorism?

 

[tequilamac]

I have done the research. I am telling you right now that if you go looking, you will spend a long time trying to find an Islamic group that doesn’t condemn terror.

Almost every single one does.

I rejected Catholicism, I am studying more about Islam. The fact that I don’t accept it doesn’t mean you can’t go and find some information to support your claim, nor does it mean that I can’t claim something about the religion’s adherents.

These statements are public…almost every last muslim organization on the planet condemns terrorism. My beliefs and your beliefs do not in any way alter that fact.

If you want to keep claiming that it doesn’t, just go ahead and find a Muslim organization that doesn’t.

EDIT: Here’s a long list of condemnations to get you started: unc.edu/~kurzman/terror.htm

An excellent list. Plenty of fatwas against violence. So now how do these people intend to wage Holy Jihad? You see- we are discussing violence here, pro universal. Not just terrorist acts. Is Islam violent? It claims peace and yes, I agree now, issues many fatwas against bombing WTC and so on. But then how does Islam propose to wage a jihad? For you notice there is nothing there condemning jihad. And jihad is what the terrorists claim to be doing. Please do not try to convince me Islam does not have jihad.

 

[Booklover]

I don’t believe I’ve ever stated that.]

Yes, you did !

don’t think we should be conciliatory…I think we should look honestly at what Muslims believe and what challenges they face.

First, they have to tell the truth about what they really believe and not lie to the unbelievers by using abrogated verses of the Meccan period!

You don’t need to be a peacenik to see that Islam condemns terrorism; you just need to be intellectually honest.

Excuse me, but one would have to be brain dead to believe that, as long as they continue to commit acts of violence!

 

[pro_universal]

Oh I’ve seen crowds. Burning our flag, calling for the pope’s death etc. But they don’t condemn terrorism against us. We are kaffir to them. Ask them to condemn hezbullah, a terrorist group. They won’t do it. Bait and switch. We have yet to see a truly authoritative fatwa against Osama.

Please tell me what the criteria are, in your opinion, for an “authoritative fatwa”.

List them and then I’ll find you one that condemns Osama and is authoritative.

 

[ferdie]

Because you’re not looking.

Tell me where can I see them. I flip channels from local to cable news looking for any counter march, but I don’t see them. There is this one guy in O’reilly factor, I like what he said, but then again, I became suspiscious on what he said, because I don’t see these moderate muslims that he is talking about.

 

[Darrel]

In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:

1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.
   We issue this fatwa following the guidance of our scripture, the Qur’an, and the teachings of our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). We urge all people to resolve all conflicts in just and peaceful manners.

We pray for the defeat of extremism and terrorism. We pray for the safety and security of our country, the United States, and its people. We pray for the safety and security of all inhabitants of our planet. We pray that interfaith harmony and cooperation prevail both in the United States and all around the globe.

I realy like some of what is written here. Please explain to me two things.

1. What percentage of people in your religion on Earth would actually put a stamp of approval on everything you have written here?
2. Do most Islamic people feel that the more extreme Islamic types are actually the faithful?

The Islamic verses below would lead me to think that serious militant Islamic people are just doing what they should. Please clarify the peaceful application of these verses.

Jihad in the "Quran"

Allah orders Muslims in the Quran to terrorize non-Muslims on His behalf:

• "Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Surah 8:60
• "Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14
• "I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah" Surah 8:12, 17
  One last thing. I can think of no greater excuse to hurt people then believing "it is not ye who slew them it was allah". In that context a person could do just about anything. Which is exactly what we see with extremist in Islam. I just get the feeling more and more that extreme Islamists are in fact the faithful.

-D

 

[pro_universal]

Excuse me, but one would have to be brain dead to believe that, as long as they continue to commit acts of violence!

If you recognize the possibility that violent people might disobey their religion to commit violence, this is far from proof.

Christians continue to commit acts of violence in the name of Christianity (like Eric Rudolph.) That proves zero about Christian teaching.

The “Meccan/Medinan” verses argument is a total farce. Get yourself a copy of the Quran that identifies which verses are Meccan and which are Medinan. I use Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s. Read them for yourself, and you’ll be surprised at how badly in error your websites are.

 

[pro_universal]

Tell me where can I see them. I flip channels from local to cable news looking for any counter march, but I don’t see them. There is this one guy in O’reilly factor, I like what he said, but then again, I became suspiscious on what he said, because I don’t see these moderate muslims that he is talking about.

Click on the link I just posted. Do you see it above?

Go there, click it, and you’ll get them.

 

[tequilamac]

Please tell me what the criteria are, in your opinion, for an “authoritative fatwa”.

List them and then I’ll find you one that condemns Osama and is authoritative.

Well, as I said earlier, that is a wonderful list of fatwas condemning terrorism. Islam has no authoritative fatwas because everyone is an authority. Everyone issues fatwas. There is no one to speak finally ultimately or infallibly in Islam because so many are able to speak and issue fatwas. I watched the biography of bin Laden in which he set out to do what was necessary so that he could also have the authority to issue fatwas. So it would seem, ultimately that fatwas are worthless, now aren’t they? Any Muslim scholar apparently can issue a fatwa.
Now the fatwas you gave us condemn terrorism. But bin Laden and his ilk are not claiming to be terrorists. When has bin Laden gotten up in a group and said " My name is Osama and I am a terrorist". He hasn’t. Osama is waging jihad which if you notice, your list of fatwas do not condemn.

I guess we can call that a big fatwa loophole.

 

[pro_universal]

An excellent list. Plenty of fatwas against violence. So now how do these people intend to wage Holy Jihad? You see- we are discussing violence here, pro universal. Not just terrorist acts. Is Islam violent? It claims peace and yes, I agree now, issues many fatwas against bombing WTC and so on. But then how does Islam propose to wage a jihad? For you notice there is nothing there condemning jihad. And jihad is what the terrorists claim to be doing. Please do not try to convince me Islam does not have jihad.

Sure it has jihad, but these fatwas also say that killing unarmed civilians IS NOT permissible in Jihad. Read them.

Jihad is warfare that is permissible under Islamic law. That means warfare that is, roughly:

-Declared by a legitimate authority
-Carried out only in self defense or defense of other Muslims
-Carried out only against armed combatants, and only so long as those combatants continue to attack.

It’s quite similar to the “just war” theory, except that the just war theory sees war as a necessary evil, where the islamic tradition sees self-defense through warfare as a positive good and an obligation.

 

[pro_universal]

Well, as I said earlier, that is a wonderful list of fatwas condemning terrorism. Islam has no authoritative fatwas because everyone is an authority. Everyone issues fatwas. There is no one to speak finally ultimately or infallibly in Islam because so many are able to speak and issue fatwas. I watched the biography of bin Laden in which he set out to do what was necessary so that he could also have the authority to issue fatwas. So it would seem, ultimately that fatwas are worthless, now aren’t they? Any Muslim scholar apparently can issue a fatwa.
Now the fatwas you gave us condemn terrorism. But bin Laden and his ilk are not claiming to be terrorists. When has bin Laden gotten up in a group and said " My name is Osama and I am a terrorist". He hasn’t. Osama is waging jihad which if you notice, your list of fatwas do not condemn.

I guess we can call that a big, fatwa loophole.

Okay, then find a fatwa that is from any group besides Bin Laden’s own that says terrorism is permissible.

If the only people who think this is okay are the terrorists themselves, wouldn’t that be a good sign to you that they’re the ones who are wrong about it?

Kind of like if the only people who claim that tobacco is good for you are tobacco makers, you might want to suspect the claim?