Texas man wants pregnant wife off life support despite state laws

[Magdalen2013]

In some cases of hydrocephalus the fetus has no brain – it failed to form and all that is left is fluid. If there is no brain it will not be able to live outside of the womb.

The sonogram showed severe deformity of the lower region of the body. As there are no defined lower limbs this can indicate that the necessary excretory organs (intestines and bladder) have not formed, and the fetus would not be able to eliminate waste.

No one knows how long the mother was without oxygen before she was found – the procedures done then and since also did damage to the fetus,

The Texas legislator who helped write this law says that it does not apply to a dead person and since the woman was declared ‘brain dead’ back in November that her body should not have been placed on a ventilator and feeding tubes. He says he did not intend for the law to be applied the way the hospital is doing.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

In some cases of hydrocephalus the fetus has no brain – it failed to form and all that is left is fluid. If there is no brain it will not be able to live outside of the womb.

The sonogram showed severe deformity of the lower region of the body. As there are no defined lower limbs this can indicate that the necessary excretory organs (intestines and bladder) have not formed, and the fetus would not be able to eliminate waste.

No one knows how long the mother was without oxygen before she was found – the procedures done then and since also did damage to the fetus,

The Texas legislator who helped write this law says that it does not apply to a dead person and since the woman was declared ‘brain dead’ back in November that her body should not have been placed on a ventilator and feeding tubes. He says he did not intend for the law to be applied the way the hospital is doing.

It seems to me that the deformities of this baby keep growing. What I read was his lower extremities had not developed and he had hydrocephalus and they could not determine the sex. Since then it has stretched to not having a head, now it is possible his excretory organs don’t work or haven’t formed. Someone else said he had no extremities at all. Someone else said he would have many issues because of the shock they gave the mother. All of this is speculation. The baby was at 14 weeks when the mother died. He would have had a head and his bladder would be developed. We don’t know what the baby was like before the trauma so we can’t say what was caused by the trauma. He is now at 20 weeks and we know he or she has severe deformities and can’t live outside the mothers womb but then that usually isn’t possible until 24 weeks.

IMHO it seems like we are trying very hard to justify the death of this child this by stretching the deformities of this baby out to be more and more.

Again, IMHO the issue needs to stay focused on whether or not the mother should have been kept on the machines to keep the baby alive, not that the baby had deformities because if we continue to justify this by saying the baby is deformed we are only fueling the flames of those who promote abortion when a baby is deformed and this is becoming more and more common.

Saving the life of deformed babies was a discussion I recently heard on the Walk for Life the other day, which is interesting that this happened during the same time.

Also, when you come into the Emergency room unless you can verbally say to a doctor don’t do this or don’t do that they are going to do all they can to save your life, so when this mother came into the ER they did life saving procedures. It is what they have to do. Without her saying no to this herself or having someone Power of Attorney for healthcare, who would speak for her, they do what they can to save a life. That is how she ended up on a ventilator and feeding tubes and plus they knew they knew as physicians there was another life there they had to consider. Just think if they had let the baby die and the husband wanted all to be done to save the baby, they could have been facing a law suit and then all these conversations would be taking a different direction. Almost always in the ER they will ask if you or family member has a living will for healthcare or what is called an Advanced Directive explaining what doctors are to do for you or to you in such an emergency situation. She did not. Her husband knew what she wanted because she had told him but pretty much anymore unless it is in writing, even the spouse can’t speak for you. Just a suggestion, it would probably be good for people to look into Advanced Directives but be wary of those that go against Catholic teaching. There are Catholic websites that have Catholic based Advanced Directive forms you can print out and fill out and get witnessed and then give to your physician.

 

[Marie5890]

Hasnt the body of the mother been in a case of decay?
If her body is decaying, does anyone think that the baby is getting what it needs.

Sounds like the baby is being fed off of the dead? A form of canabalism maybe?

It sounds like this is an extreme case that the authors of the TX law never really sat down and considered.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

Hasnt the body of the mother been in a case of decay?
If her body is decaying, does anyone think that the baby is getting what it needs.

Sounds like the baby is being fed off of the dead? A form of canabalism maybe?

It sounds like this is an extreme case that the authors of the TX law never really sat down and considered.

I do understand how it being a deceased mother versus a woman in a coma is difficult. I struggle with that. I am not sure how much she would be decaying if she is on a ventilator that is moving oxygen and blood through her body. They would probably have intravenous fluids included and hormones to maintain the body. They are probably also able to provide the body with the nutrients to possibly aid the infant. They would do this intravenously. From what I read a body can be kept quite a long time artificially despite brain death. I don’t see how this in canabalism. Canabalism from what I understand is eating another human.

I don’t think any state, not just TX, thought about this but as I said before without a patient’s stating what to do an ER doctor will do all to save a life, even an unborn one.

 

[St_Francis]

…Again, IMHO the issue needs to stay focused on whether or not the mother should have been kept on the machines to keep the baby alive, not that the baby had deformities because if we continue to justify this by saying the baby is deformed we are only fueling the flames of those who promote abortion when a baby is deformed and this is becoming more and more common.

This is why I think we need to stay focused on the difference between taking a life and withdrawing medical treatment, because medical treatment can be withdrawn if the prognosis is bad, but no matter what the situation is, we cannot *take *life.

We must also not allow those who will twist our actions or our teachings to cause us to move too far to the opposite side. We cannot allow the fact that advocates of abortion will twist the teaching to justify abortion to cause us to condemn someone for doing something morally acceptable.

 

[Marie5890]

I do understand how it being a deceased mother versus a woman in a coma is difficult. I struggle with that. I am not sure how much she would be decaying if she is on a ventilator that is moving oxygen and blood through her body. They would probably have intravenous fluids included and hormones to maintain the body. They are probably also able to provide the body with the nutrients to possibly aid the infant. They would do this intravenously. From what I read a body can be kept quite a long time artificially despite brain death. I don’t see how this in canabalism. Canabalism from what I understand is eating another human.

I don’t think any state, not just TX, thought about this but as I said before without a patient’s stating what to do an ER doctor will do all to save a life, even an unborn one.

What is science saying?

Is her body in the decay state or not?

Canabalism is feeding off of a dead body. Is the baby feeding off a dead body?

 

[adrift]

What is science saying?

Is her body in the decay state or not?

Canabalism is feeding off of a dead body. Is the baby feeding off a dead body?

You have a very loose definition. Cannibalism is the eating of the flesh of an animal by another animal of the same kind. A baby is feed by the mother this is not cannibalism. Unfortunately the child did not develop normally.

 

[jediliz]

the abnormalities reported for the baby do NOT make sense…

And if the baby did not have limbs or a head, that would have been seen on an earlier ultrasound BEFORE Marilse collapsed. You can’t have water on the brain and NO HEAD! You have to have a head to have a brain!

Something does not make sense here.

This is still a human life we are talking about, no matter the “abnormalities”!

 

[Diana_Catherine]

What is science saying?

Is her body in the decay state or not?

Canabalism is feeding off of a dead body. Is the baby feeding off a dead body?

I am not sure how much decaying is happening with it being on a ventilator. It will provide oxygen and pump blood. There are medications that can be given to keep the blood pressure and heart rate up. True there will be some decaying but the process is slowed down considerably.

I think canabalism is a strange way to look at this.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

the abnormalities reported for the baby do NOT make sense…

And if the baby did not have limbs or a head, that would have been seen on an earlier ultrasound BEFORE Marilse collapsed. You can’t have water on the brain and NO HEAD! You have to have a head to have a brain!

Something does not make sense here.

This is still a human life we are talking about, no matter the “abnormalities”!

I agree. It bothers me the way people are using the abnormalities of the baby as a reason to turn off the machine.

 

[Mulligan2]

I agree. It bothers me the way people are using the abnormalities of the baby as a reason to turn off the machine.

The condition of the fetus should have no bearing on the decision. The decision rests solely with the husband, who is honoring the wishes of his brain-dead wife. Full stop.

 

[Marie5890]

The condition of the fetus should have no bearing on the decision. The decision rests solely with the husband, who is honoring the wishes of his brain-dead wife. Full stop.

Apparently his wishes mean nothing. That and his wife. Mean nothing.

Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Wishes mean nothing. Nada. Ziltch. Nothing. Nunca.

The people of the culture simply dont care about her. Her body is in decay and she is denied a decent burial.

Crazy.

 

[Diana_Catherine]

The condition of the fetus should have no bearing on the decision. The decision rests solely with the husband, who is honoring the wishes of his brain-dead wife. Full stop.

No not full stop. The doctors have to take into consideration the condition of the fetus. It is their job. It is their responsibility. He can speak for his wife, but this is a different unprecedented situation. Doctors must follow the laws laid out or they can lose their license. Without Advance Directives written out a spouse isn’t always given the right to make the decision. Usually they can but not always.That is why they had to go to court

Apparently his wishes mean nothing. That and his wife. Mean nothing.

Zero. Zilch. Nada. Nothing. Wishes mean nothing. Nada. Ziltch. Nothing. Nunca.

The people of the culture simply dont care about her. Her body is in decay and she is denied a decent burial.

Crazy.

I think this is a little exaggeration. It is not because they don’t care about her but that they care for the baby also and want to be sure what they do is right. Doctors have to be very careful and in a situation like this, very, very careful.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

I think this is a little exaggeration. It is not because they don’t care about her but that they care for the baby also and want to be sure what they do is right. Doctors have to be very careful and in a situation like this, very, very careful.

They are desecrating the body of this woman and trying to hide behind a law which doesn’t even apply to this case. This is religious extremism at work.

 

[Marie5890]

They are desecrating the body of this woman and trying to hide behind a law which doesn’t even apply to this case. This is religious extremism at work.

At the very least. This woman’s body has been decomposing for some time. This is not under dispute.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

At the very least. This woman’s body has been decomposing for some time. This is not under dispute.

No doubt. The husband says he can smell the stench of death and her body is in a state somewhat like rigor mortis. Despite the desperation of the “pro-life” movement; medical science has its limits. This woman has been dead for two months and her body is indeed decaying. BTW - Who’s going to pay for this futile endeavor? I hope he sues this hospital because no insurance company would cover this madness.

 

[gracepoole]

the abnormalities reported for the baby do NOT make sense…

And if the baby did not have limbs or a head, that would have been seen on an earlier ultrasound BEFORE Marilse collapsed. You can’t have water on the brain and NO HEAD! You have to have a head to have a brain!

Something does not make sense here.

This is still a human life we are talking about, no matter the “abnormalities”!

The baby has a head – if you read back in this thread, you’ll see that somewhere along the line the “headless” comment came into play but there’s no news source that supports it. And as explained in this article, the baby may have had defects before the traumatic event that claimed its mother’s life: abcnews.go.com/Health/texas-fetus-abnormalities-mother-brain-dead/story?id=21639616

None of this changes the fact that the mother herself is now a corpse.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The baby has a head – if you read back in this thread, you’ll see that somewhere along the line the “headless” comment came into play but there’s no news source that supports it. And as explained in this article, the baby may have had defects before the traumatic event that claimed its mother’s life: abcnews.go.com/Health/texas-fetus-abnormalities-mother-brain-dead/story?id=21639616

None of this changes the fact that the mother herself is now a corpse.

Noting that neither one of these two doctors interviewed examined Mrs. Munos and baby.

I’m not sure there is any medical literature that describes what happens to a baby when its mother’s heart stops for an hour.

 

[gracepoole]

Noting that neither one of these two doctors interviewed examined Mrs. Munos and baby.

I’m not sure there is any medical literature that describes what happens to a baby when its mother’s heart stops for an hour.

Perhaps not. But I have yet to see evidence that there’s some kind of medical conspiracy here. This baby is not JFK’s body after the fatal shot – there aren’t really unexplainable aspects of this baby’s body.

 

[catholictiger]

i understand better what you meant, and I’m sorry I misunderstood you.

For various types of situations, the particulars of the specific situation are vital to coming to an understanding of the moral course of action. In these areas, the Church offers only guideleines, not definitive rulings.

And i also want to point out here that Church teaching allows for a broad range of action in the middle, bit that one can generally sin by going too far in excess as well as in paucity of action; however, it is *always *evil to *kill *the patient.

WRT withdrawal of medical treatment, it can be morally acceptable to withdraw or reject medical treatment. If you read through all this thread, Mary Gail posted several long quotes and links to articles which I found very helpful.

a couple of things

Mary Gail talked about a person who doesn’t spew for the magisterium he is a theologian with an opinion on the interpretation of Catholic teaching. Yes we should respect it but he in no way speaks authoritatively.

Yes WRT does apply for the women in this case but it may not necessarily apply for the Baby, yes it has serious malformations but in the eyes of the Church that means nothing, what matters for the Church is the dignity of the human person. What comes down is the WRT take away dignity or is it in line with the babies dignity to let it die. This is the question, I side on no we should do our best to keep the baby alive, but I’m no medical expert or theological expert so I can’t begin to get into why it must be this.