Texas man wants pregnant wife off life support despite state laws

[GraceSofia]

articles.philly.com/2014-01-22/news/46468066_1_life-support-fetus-pregnant-patient

That contains another link to a video of an EWTN interview with Dr. John M. Haas, president of the National Catholic Bioethics Center in Philadelphia, which is very interesting, but I didn’t think he addressed the question of what to do when the person is brain dead but there is a baby involved. I only watched it once so maybe I just didn’t catch it.

In the interview, led by EWTN anchor Colleen Carol Campbell, Dr. Haas addresses and clarifies the Church’s stance on end-of-life issues and the determination of death.

youtube.com/watch?v=nyFN67tIx0c&feature=youtu.be&t=14m24s

 

[St_Francis]

I agree that the records are private. However, if you run to the media to get support for your decision, people are going to want to know details. It’s just human nature. Don’t talk to the media if you don’t want others involved.

The media run to the people. I did not hear about this case at all until the suit came up. That is through the courts and so is a matter of public record, public records which reporters scour to find news in. Then they go and talk to the people involved and the story takes off.

The whole thing about reporters is that they try to get people to talk to them. Notice that the same statements by the family have been repeated through many articles and many days. It doesn’t really look like the family is “going to the media” at all.

It looks like the hearing set for tomorrow, so the decision will be soon.

I’m curious, though, if the hospital agrees with Munoz, but believes they are are bound by the law or if they have a different opinion than him and are using the law to back them up. From the little bit of info that has been released, it seems as if the hospital doesn’t agree. If they did, then why is Munoz suing the hospital rather than going after the law with the support of the hospital?

Who else would he sue? I think that he has to sue the hospital.

Considering how little the hospital has said, it doesn’t seem like they disagree with Mr Muñoz. Compare what they have said to what the Californa hospital said in the case of Jehi MacMath. It seems quite probably that had the TX law not been in place, the hospital would have stopped trying to resusitate Mrs Muñoz, considering her condition aside from her pregnancy.

 

[St_Francis]

abnormal is anything that isn’t “perfect” in today’s world. It could mean a cleft lip (minor) to brain damage caused by the mother’s condition that caused her “death”.

Totally agreed.

This is not a case in which someone finds out their child has a minor physical problem, Downs Syndrome, or is the “wrong” sex and decides to hire someone to kill their child.

This is a case in which extraordinary means are being used to maintain a baby who has undergone the trauma of oxygen deprivation which has already killed his or her mother.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

The media run to the people. I did not hear about this case at all until the suit came up. That is through the courts and so is a matter of public record, public records which reporters scour to find news in. Then they go and talk to the people involved and the story takes off.

The whole thing about reporters is that they try to get people to talk to them. Notice that the same statements by the family have been repeated through many articles and many days. It doesn’t really look like the family is “going to the media” at all.

Who else would he sue? I think that he has to sue the hospital.

Considering how little the hospital has said, it doesn’t seem like they disagree with Mr Muñoz. Compare what they have said to what the Californa hospital said in the case of Jehi MacMath. It seems quite probably that had the TX law not been in place, the hospital would have stopped trying to resusitate Mrs Muñoz, considering her condition aside from her pregnancy.

Since Marlise is dead, the hospital should not be bound by doctor patient confidentiality.

An appointed guardian for the baby should be able to give details on the condition of the baby.

There does not seem to be an appointed guardian for the baby…

 

[Lochias]

This is a case in which extraordinary means are being used to maintain a baby who has undergone the trauma of oxygen deprivation which has already killed his or her mother.

Growing in the womb is NOT "extraordinary means."

And further, it wouldn’t matter if it was. Humans are quite extraordinary, and worthy of such means.

 

[estesbob]

This is not a case in which someone finds out their child has a minor physical problem, Downs Syndrome, or is the “wrong” sex and decides to hire someone to kill their child.

This is a case in which extraordinary means are being used to maintain a baby who has undergone the trauma of oxygen deprivation which has already killed his or her mother.

And if this baby is born alive people will line up to adopt them regardless of the problems. Life should ALWAYS come first

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

articles.philly.com/2014-01-22/news/46468066_1_life-support-fetus-pregnant-patient

I would request that this poor man not be judged harshly.

I hope he is receiving pastoral care along with his in-laws. It is a horrible situation for all, the parents of Marlise, her husband for Marlise and her unborn child.

Praying for this family.

 

[twoshoes]

Mr. Munoz is under no obligation to provide personal medical information to you or anyone else in the public. Medical information is private. I am stunned that people on this forum are taking him to task for not releasing this information.

How do you believe any information he releases if he hides some and releases only what he wants us to know? This only deception, the first step in an untruth. We also can ask the question what are you hiding. He is the person who wants to terminate a life. I’m stunned that you do not fight for the life of another human being. Deception and lies go hand in hand with the termination of a life, anything is justified.

End life times are filled with emotions, I’ll pray for the gentleman an hope he has a Priest or minister he can talk to. I would want the child which is a part of her as a living reminder of her life and how much I love her. Love cannot come from abortion, only more dead.

 

[estesbob]

How do you believe any information he releases if he hides some and releases only what he wants us to know? This only deception, the first step in an untruth. We also can ask the question what are you hiding. He is the person who wants to terminate a life. I’m stunned that you do not fight for the life of another human being. Deception and lies go hand in hand with the termination of a life, anything is justified.

Actually the only information we need to know is if the baby is alive or dead. We know the answer is alive which is why , in a civilized society, this conversation shouldn’t even be necessary.

 

[St_Francis]

Growing in the womb is NOT "extraordinary means."

And further, it wouldn’t matter if it was. Humans are quite extraordinary, and worthy of such means.

And if this baby is born alive people will line up to adopt them regardless of the problems. Life should ALWAYS come first

Do you have any idea what the condition is of a baby whose mother was deprived of oxygen for an hour? Whose heart was shocked back to life several times?

And we don’t know the condition of this baby, who may also be brain dead, who may be emerge from his mother’s womb unable to sustain life.

*This is an experiment. As far as we know, this has succeeded in only about 35% of the cases in which it has been tried. As far as we know, in a different state, maybe even a different hospital in Texas, the medical procedures to the mother would have been discontinued. *

Human life is important, I grant you that. And for that reason, God commanded us not to **take **the lives of the innocent. It is totally wrong to *take *life.

But when women miscarry, do we say the baby’s life has been taken? Do we call the loss of that life “murder,” as some have done in this thread? No.

And if a pregnant woman loses her life due to cancer or aneurysm, do we say the baby has been killed? Do we call the loss of that baby “murder”?

No.

Some years ago, what is being done would have been impossible. Now it is possible, bit is it always the right thing to do? Is it right to keep the baby alive just to die later, if the baby is even still alive?

And this is what we do not know. We do not know the *actual issues *this family is dealing with. We do not know that actual burdens they are grappling with. We know nothing more than the bare facts, and the bare facts, I contend, do not justify calling withdrawal of treatment “murder,” or judging this family in any way, or to do anything more than mourn the tragic loss of a young mother.

 

[St_Francis]

Actually the only information we need to know is if the baby is alive or dead. We know the answer is alive which is why , in a civilized society, this conversation shouldn’t even be necessary.

How do we know even that the baby is alive? The mother is dead, and her heart is still beating. The baby’s heart is still beating–maybe only because the baby too is receiving oxygen.

Even in civilized societies, people die. It is not a question of quality of life, but of human limitations. We find limitations all around us. Should we build and staff ICUs in every home so that everyone gets immediate medical care? Should we require that pregnant women live in hospitals?

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, there is suffering in this life, and sometimes that suffering is due to loss. One gains nothing and loses and suffers.

 

[estesbob]

How do we know even that the baby is alive? The mother is dead, and her heart is still beating. The baby’s heart is still beating–maybe only because the baby too is receiving oxygen.

Even in civilized societies, people die. It is not a question of quality of life, but of human limitations. We find limitations all around us. Should we build and staff ICUs in every home so that everyone gets immediate medical care? Should we require that pregnant women live in hospitals?

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, there is suffering in this life, and sometimes that suffering is due to loss. One gains nothing and loses and suffers.

We will know when the baby is born. We should always protect life.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Do you have any idea what the condition is of a baby whose mother was deprived of oxygen for an hour? Whose heart was shocked back to life several times?

And we don’t know the condition of this baby, who may also be brain dead, who may be emerge from his mother’s womb unable to sustain life.

*This is an experiment. As far as we know, this has succeeded in only about 35% of the cases in which it has been tried. As far as we know, in a different state, maybe even a different hospital in Texas, the medical procedures to the mother would have been discontinued. *

Human life is important, I grant you that. And for that reason, God commanded us not to **take **the lives of the innocent. It is totally wrong to *take *life.

But when women miscarry, do we say the baby’s life has been taken? Do we call the loss of that life “murder,” as some have done in this thread? No.

And if a pregnant woman loses her life due to cancer or aneurysm, do we say the baby has been killed? Do we call the loss of that baby “murder”?

No.

Some years ago, what is being done would have been impossible. Now it is possible, bit is it always the right thing to do? Is it right to keep the baby alive just to die later, if the baby is even still alive?

And this is what we do not know. We do not know the *actual issues *this family is dealing with. We do not know that actual burdens they are grappling with. We know nothing more than the bare facts, and the bare facts, I contend, do not justify calling withdrawal of treatment “murder,” or judging this family in any way, or to do anything more than mourn the tragic loss of a young mother.

I want to touch on the highlighted part. 35% of children equals to a just a hand full of children.

Of babies this young (14 weeks circa) only 1 survived that we know of.

And these are mothers who suffered brain death. We don’t know why they suffered brain death.

Marlise Munoz suffered brain death coupled with clinical death (which means a stopped heart).

The Church teaches this:

**

**2278 **

Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected**.

and the Church also teaches this:

**

**2478 **

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved. **

 

[seekerz]

We will know when the baby is born. We should always protect life.

God is the author of life. It’s His call.

Death is a natural part of life, and allowing it when nature dictates is not a sin, if the alternative lies outside the bounds of ordinary, everyday medical care.

 

[seekerz]

Growing in the womb is NOT "extraordinary means."

And further, it wouldn’t matter if it was. Humans are quite extraordinary, and worthy of such means.

Growing in the womb is not a “means” - it is an end. And, it doesn’t look to me like the doctors even know if the baby is indeed growing as expected.

The means here involves artificially keeping blood circulating in the dead body of a woman that God has called home. What can we offer this baby that heaven can’t?

 

[Lochias]

Growing in the womb is not a “means” - it is an end. And, it doesn’t look to me like the doctors even know if the baby is indeed growing as expected.

Babies grow in wombs. That’s what’s happening here. And the doctors don’t know that the baby won’t be born perfectly healthy, either.

The means here involves artificially keeping blood circulating in the dead body of a woman that God has called home.

The woman is still breathing thanks to science that God has gifted us with. She’s not been called home yet. Neither has the baby.

What can we offer this baby that heaven can’t?

You could say that of anyone and knife them where they stand. I suffer from severe and untreated depression, a family that is in some significant ways dysfunctional, and constant worry over my financial situation. What does anyone have to offer me that heaven doesn’t, at this stage in the game? Would you deem it okay to kill me, a living, breathing human being, just because I am currently undergoing some suffering?

Are you seriously asking God why He made that child? Really?

“God, I don’t get it…You knew him before he was born, but we’re just going to pull the plug, 'cause hey, what do You know, right?”

I am completely disgusted right now, down to my core. Good God.

 

[St_Francis]

Babies grow in wombs. That’s what’s happening here. And the doctors don’t know that the baby won’t be born perfectly healthy, either.

Yes, the baby is growing in the womb, *because his or her mother, **who has died, **is on a machine pumping oxygen into her lungs. *

If the medical treatment were not being applied, both would already have been buried.

The woman is still breathing thanks to science that God has gifted us with.

She is not breathing. Oxygen is being pumped into her body.

She’s not been called home yet.

She *has *died. That is what brain death *is. *There is no part of her brain still functioning–not even the part which tells her lungs to breathe.

The *only *reason her heart continues to beat is that the brain does not regulate that. Under certain circumstances, the heart will continue to beat simply because of the presence of oxygen (in other circumstances, it does not beat at all).

Neither has the baby.

We don’t know this.

The point is that people here are making judgements about this husband’s decision when they have even less information than he or the doctors. This is wrong.

 

[seekerz]

Babies grow in wombs. That’s what’s happening here. And the doctors don’t know that the baby won’t be born perfectly healthy, either.

The woman is still breathing thanks to science that God has gifted us with. She’s not been called home yet. Neither has the baby.

You could say that of anyone and knife them where they stand. I suffer from severe and untreated depression, a family that is in some significant ways dysfunctional, and constant worry over my financial situation. What does anyone have to offer me that heaven doesn’t, at this stage in the game? Would you deem it okay to kill me, a living, breathing human being, just because I am currently undergoing some suffering?

Are you seriously asking God why He made that child? Really?

“God, I don’t get it…You knew him before he was born, but we’re just going to pull the plug, 'cause hey, what do You know, right?”

I am completely disgusted right now, down to my core. Good God.

Why are you disgusted? According to the family, this woman is dead - she is not breathing. A functioning brainstem is necessary for her to breathe and hers is not working.

Her body is being ventilated artificially. God does not require us to keep a dead person’s body functioning on machines, period.

 

[Lochias]

Yes, the baby is growing in the womb, *because his or her mother, **who has died, ***is on a machine pumping oxygen into her lungs.

If the medical treatment were not being applied, both would already have been buried.

Funny how you insist the mother’s dead when she’s actually breathing.

She is not breathing. Oxygen is being pumped into her body.

And yet she’s breathing. Truly, God gifted us with a miracle in science.

The *only *reason her heart continues to beat is that the brain does not regulate that. Under certain circumstances, the heart will continue to beat simply because of the presence of oxygen (in other circumstances, it does not beat at all).

In other words, she’s not dead. Gotcha.

We don’t know this.

None of us can predict the future, so we should plan for a joyous one instead of make a possible unknown certain in killing the child.

The point is that people here are making judgements about this husband’s decision when they have even less information than he or the doctors. This is wrong.

You’re making all kinds of judgements in that statement. Who died and made you referee?

Why are you disgusted? According to the family, this woman is dead - she is not breathing. A functioning brainstem is necessary for her to breathe and hers is not working.

And yet, she’s breathing. The baby is alive. I am disgusted because you are apparently willing to give up on a precious human life that God created, while claiming to know what is better for the child. You are not God.

Her body is being ventilated artificially. God does not require us to keep a dead person’s body functioning on machines, period.

It’s a live body, and the baby’s body is doing just fine in the womb.

I can see we’re going around in circles, here. Thank God our lawmakers in Texas respect life instead of attempt to play God.

 

[punisherthunder]

Read an article today about this case.

Doctors say that the baby is so badly deformed that a gender cannot be determined. The heartbeat is very week and there is massive amounts of fluid on the brain.