Texas man wants pregnant wife off life support despite state laws

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Murder was committed, once again, in the name of choice.
You are in no position to declare that act murder. Babies die everyday due to natural causes; there is nothing that demands we carry out experiments to defeat the course of nature.

And by the way, choice is not something evil - even if it is sometimes used to excuse evil - choice, and free will, are gifts from God.
 
Murder was committed, once again, in the name of choice.
This discussion begins with the reality that a 14-week-old fetus in a dead mother is not supposed to live (if the fetus was viable, 22+ weeks, the story would be different). Man is not supposed to play God in this case, and the result of man playing God is causing the prolonged suffering and the slow death of the fetus. Let the child be with it’s mother, and don’t interfere with God’s plan…please.
 
Actually, state law is what kept this baby “alive,” not any particular person. Had the law not been in place, the mother, and (non-viable) child, would have died peacefully. Removing support from the mother simply allowed nature to take its natural course.

You don’t have enough information to make such an assertive statement. Fighting the natural course of events has its consequences. The child’s “life support” was a dead mother, and it is not reasonable to assume that the child would live much longer. According to doctors, the child was not developing properly. We don’t know the extent of damage caused by unnaturally keeping the mother on support, other than there was significant damage.
Since when is fighting for the life of a child not a natural thing to do. At all children’s hospital they fight for the child’s life every day, should this stop also, some may be deformed, or mentally challenged. Letting them die fits into your thinking. You do not know how much damage is done to the child as if that makes any difference. The only difference between this child in the womb and the children in the hospital is people to speak up for them and protect them. How alone that child is.You focus only on the dead woman and not the person who is alive, alive, alive. I’m not a particularly good looking guy, and have many health issues, am I worry of live in your world? We cannot play God and be his servant at the same time. Gods Will not Yours or mine.
 
Murder was committed, once again, in the name of choice.
CCC:2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.280
 
I actually knew this lovely woman professionally, but I never had the pleasure of meeting her husband. I cannot imagine how he has made it through this trying time - especially with all the vitriol spewed on the internet! I wonder if he regrets doing CPR on his wife after seeing what she and their unborn child went through for two months. Would he have done it if he knew how this would turn out? Obviously he wanted to give them both a chance to live, or he wouldn’t have done CPR. I believe that as a paramedic who understands the reality of brain death and “life support”, he made the decision she would have made for herself, even though she was pregnant. It may not be your choice or mine, but we have to trust that he knew her better than any of us, and his decision should have been honored from the very beginning.

I hope that some good comes of all of this; that we, as a nation, will have deeper discussions about end of life care and just how far we should go and when we should let nature take its course. Just because we CAN do something (like keep a brain dead body’s heart beating with mechnical ventilation and drugs) doesn’t mean that we SHOULD. I hope this helps people to not fear death, to understand that it is a natural part of life, and to let go instead of doing cruel and unnatural things to their loved ones’ bodies for their own personal, selfish reasons. I can only hope that this case can help others make the difficult decision to honor natural death when it comes.

I pray for Marlise and her baby, that they are with God at this moment. I pray for their family, that they may be comforted by God and be able to finally have peace after this ordeal.
Thank you for sharing on this topic which must be very difficult for you. I feel so sorry for this family… And I too have prayed for them.
 
I just joined this discussion, so I’m not going to pretend to have read all 28 pages of this thread. But, I am very interested in this topic. I teach morality in a Catholic high school (sophomores, 15-16 years old). As part of my class, I like to regularly incorporate debates into the curriculum. I want the students to be able to take the concepts I give them regarding act analysis (object, intention, circumstance), and apply them in real-world scenarios. I’m going to use this case as a debate topic next week.

I am not at all convinced that the family or the hospital acted immorally in this case. While we have an obligation not to kill, the same obligation does not exist to never let someone die.

For the purposes of the discussion, let’s assume that the unborn baby was completely healthy. (As I understand the facts of the case, this was not true, but for the sake of argument, let’s just say that it was.) So, removal of life-support for a clinically brain-dead woman in accord with her, and her family’s, wishes would necessarily result in the death of her unborn child. So, let’s analyze this case, shall we?

First, the object. What is being done? In this case, it seems to me that the object of the act, to use the Thomistic language, is the removal of extraordinary life-sustaining care. This is not contrary to Church teaching, but is very much in accord with it. So, the object is morally good. The family is not actively willing the death of the mother. They are merely letting nature take its course.

Second, the intention. None of us have any way of knowing what the intention of the husband/father was in this case. But, it seems to me that his intention was simply to alleviate the suffering of his wife and family. Perhaps there was the desire to not accrue any further hospital costs, either directly on his family, or on their insurance provider, or on the state of Texas. Perhaps he did not want the responsibility of raising a child. Short of him coming out and saying, we’ll never know. But, let’s be charitable and assume the best intentions in people. Thus, we can charitably say that his intention was to alleviate suffering and save money and medical resources. These are good intentions.

Thus, the entire act, the object and intention, are good. Now, we have to look at the particular circumstances surrounding this case. Remember, that circumstances cannot make an act that is morally corrupt into a good act (this is called proportionalism, consequentialism, or utilitarianism…all different names for what is essentially the same philosophy). So, we cannot say that it is morally licit to intentionally kill the innocent, for example, in order to save more lives. You can’t do evil so that good may come about as a result. But, circumstances CAN render what would otherwise be a morally good act into an immoral act. For example, giving money to the poor (good object) with the honest intention of helping them (good intention) is a good act. But, let’s say the money was from your son’s college fund and he will now be deprived of a college education. The circumstances make the act itself immoral.

In this case, the circumstances are that allowing the death of the mother would necessarily cause the death of her unborn child. The knee-jerk reaction is to say that the evil of keeping her alive is disproportionate to the good that would be produced in saving the life of her unborn child. But again, this is the error of proportionalism. The correct way to look at it is to ask the question of whether or not there is a iusta causa, a just cause, to allow the negative, but foreseen and inevitable consequence of the death of the baby.

I think that there is. We have to be VERY careful to NOT use terminology like “outweigh.” That’s proportionalism.

So, my conclusion is that the object is good, the intention is good, and there is a iusta causa to tolerate the foreseen but unintended consequences of this action.
 
Thank you for sharing on this topic which must be very difficult for you. I feel so sorry for this family… And I too have prayed for them.
Thank you for praying for them. Seeing the judgement and hate hurled at her poor husband has been heart wrenching for those who knew her / know him.
 
Buc_fan33, thanks for going through that reasoning with us. It’s helpful to see this from a “neutral” point of view. We also need to be reminded (as other posters have done) to assume the best in the father’s/family’s intentions.

Catholic_wife, I will also be praying for this man and family in their grief. If you have the opportunity, please assure them of prayers from many of us here at CAF.
 
Thank you for praying for them. Seeing the judgement and hate hurled at her poor husband has been heart wrenching for those who knew her / know him.
I can only imagine what they are going through as a result of this case’s becoming publicized. I mean, what they were going through was bad enough, but to have this heaped upon them…
 
Since when is fighting for the life of a child not a natural thing to do. At all children’s hospital they fight for the child’s life every day, should this stop also, some may be deformed, or mentally challenged. Letting them die fits into your thinking.
You obviously have no idea of my line of thinking if that is your conclusion.

People are treating a fetus that cannot live on its own (specifically solely dependent on its mother for its existence), nor near to living own its own, to an already born child. Sorry, but they are not the same.

That does not mean they are both entitled to life, but they are two entirely different circumstances.
You do not know how much damage is done to the child as if that makes any difference. The only difference between this child in the womb and the children in the hospital is people to speak up for them and protect them. How alone that child is.You focus only on the dead woman and not the person who is alive, alive, alive.
The dead mother is extraordinarily relevant when discussing this matter. For some strange reason, many Catholics see no problem in treating things as if they are entirely independent of each, when in fact they are interconnected…that goes for fetus/mother, us and our environment, theory and practice, etc. The child is not a separate entity from its mother, regardless of how assertively one wishes to state it. Remove the baby and see what happens. The only mortal being that can take care of the child at 14 weeks is the mother, and the mother is dead.
I’m not a particularly good looking guy, and have many health issues, am I worry of live in your world? We cannot play God and be his servant at the same time. Gods Will not Yours or mine.
Actually, in my world, you’d be healthy.😃 I am a middle-aged man with various health problems, but eat right, and work out to keep the in check.

But in the end, when God calls me home, I will not fight it. It’s just amazes me that so many talk about a wonderful afterlife, yet fear death and as a result cling onto life when the end is obvious with every ounce of their being.
 
I just joined this discussion, so I’m not going to pretend to have read all 28 pages of this thread. But, I am very interested in this topic. I teach morality in a Catholic high school (sophomores, 15-16 years old). As part of my class, I like to regularly incorporate debates into the curriculum. I want the students to be able to take the concepts I give them regarding act analysis (object, intention, circumstance), and apply them in real-world scenarios. I’m going to use this case as a debate topic next week.

I am not at all convinced that the family or the hospital acted immorally in this case. While we have an obligation not to kill, the same obligation does not exist to never let someone die.

For the purposes of the discussion, let’s assume that the unborn baby was completely healthy. (As I understand the facts of the case, this was not true, but for the sake of argument, let’s just say that it was.) So, removal of life-support for a clinically brain-dead woman in accord with her, and her family’s, wishes would necessarily result in the death of her unborn child. So, let’s analyze this case, shall we?

First, the object. What is being done? In this case, it seems to me that the object of the act, to use the Thomistic language, is the removal of extraordinary life-sustaining care. This is not contrary to Church teaching, but is very much in accord with it. So, the object is morally good. The family is not actively willing the death of the mother. They are merely letting nature take its course.

Second, the intention. None of us have any way of knowing what the intention of the husband/father was in this case. But, it seems to me that his intention was simply to alleviate the suffering of his wife and family. Perhaps there was the desire to not accrue any further hospital costs, either directly on his family, or on their insurance provider, or on the state of Texas. Perhaps he did not want the responsibility of raising a child. Short of him coming out and saying, we’ll never know. But, let’s be charitable and assume the best intentions in people. Thus, we can charitably say that his intention was to alleviate suffering and save money and medical resources. These are good intentions.

Thus, the entire act, the object and intention, are good. Now, we have to look at the particular circumstances surrounding this case. Remember, that circumstances cannot make an act that is morally corrupt into a good act (this is called proportionalism, consequentialism, or utilitarianism…all different names for what is essentially the same philosophy). So, we cannot say that it is morally licit to intentionally kill the innocent, for example, in order to save more lives. You can’t do evil so that good may come about as a result. But, circumstances CAN render what would otherwise be a morally good act into an immoral act. For example, giving money to the poor (good object) with the honest intention of helping them (good intention) is a good act. But, let’s say the money was from your son’s college fund and he will now be deprived of a college education. The circumstances make the act itself immoral.

In this case, the circumstances are that allowing the death of the mother would necessarily cause the death of her unborn child. The knee-jerk reaction is to say that the evil of keeping her alive is disproportionate to the good that would be produced in saving the life of her unborn child. But again, this is the error of proportionalism. The correct way to look at it is to ask the question of whether or not there is a iusta causa, a just cause, to allow the negative, but foreseen and inevitable consequence of the death of the baby.

I think that there is. We have to be VERY careful to NOT use terminology like “outweigh.” That’s proportionalism.

So, my conclusion is that the object is good, the intention is good, and there is a iusta causa to tolerate the foreseen but unintended consequences of this action.
Thanks for writing this out is a way that really clarified the issue.
 
Choice to do what?
Choice to do anything. That is what free will is - the ability to choose between good and evil. Of course, we would always encourage the choice for good. But without the ability to make a choice, we don’t have free will.
 
In this case, the circumstances are that allowing the death of the mother would necessarily cause the death of her unborn child. The knee-jerk reaction is to say that the evil of keeping her alive is disproportionate to the good that would be produced in saving the life of her unborn child. But again, this is the error of proportionalism. The correct way to look at it is to ask the question of whether or not there is a iusta causa, a just cause, to allow the negative, but foreseen and inevitable consequence of the death of the baby.
You should remember that the mother was brain dead.
There is no suffering on her part at all.

The devices maintaining her body were in effect maintaining the unborn child.

If, as you assumed in your scenario, that the child were perfectly healthy, then all that has been done is removal of devices that were supporting the life of the child.
 
If, as you assumed in your scenario, that the child were perfectly healthy, then all that has been done is removal of devices that were supporting the life of the child.
I personally wouldn’t use “maintaining” in this case. What is actually occurring is attempting to keep the dying child alive long enough so that the child is viable.
 
But in the end, when God calls me home, I will not fight it. It’s just amazes me that so many talk about a wonderful afterlife, yet fear death and as a result cling onto life when the end is obvious with every ounce of their being.
:amen:
 
We do not know the child to be dying.
Yes we do, beyond any shadow of a doubt.

If a person’s brain is dead, does the rest of their body live? Go examine a body of a person a day after they die. Is the heart still functioning? Are the glands in the body still active? Are the body’s temperature-control mechanisms still working? Would a fetus in such a body still be alive?

Until the child is born, it is part of the mother. And the mother is dead. Slapping a ventilator on a dead mother doesn’t stop the death process for the child; at best it slows it down, and prolongs the suffering. The only possible way such an action can be considered moral and justifiable is if there is a reasonable expectation that the child will live. At 14 weeks, that is entirely unreasonable. It is more likely that a child will survive an ectopic pregnancy.
 
warrior monk,

The baby is NOT PART OF THE MOTHER. The baby is a separate unique human being. I was not part of my mother before I was born and neither were my older brother or older sister. We were all unique and separate.

The baby would have been almost viable this week (She continued to grow thanks to the life support her mother was on) - just a few more days would have give her a chance to possibly live outside of the womb (and since they were able to identify the baby as a girl, I have my doubts to how many of the “abnormalities” were actually true, including the claim that they could not determine the sex of the baby.)
 
warrior monk,

The baby is NOT PART OF THE MOTHER. The baby is a separate unique human being.
In that case, taking the dead mother off of the ventilator would have no effect on the baby.
The baby would have been almost viable this week (She continued to grow thanks to the life support her mother was on) - just a few more days would have give her a chance to possibly live outside of the womb (and since they were able to identify the baby as a girl, I have my doubts to how many of the “abnormalities” were actually true, including the claim that they could not determine the sex of the baby.)
You can’t make the case that the baby is not part of the mother and then state the baby is not yet viable. That’s a nonsensical argument, and one that has not heretofore been demonstrated. It should also be noted that the Church does not teach when ensoulment occurs.
 
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