Texas man wants pregnant wife off life support despite state laws

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Can anyone who has actually studied Catholic Moral theology point me in a direction as to where I can better educate myself as to how the Magisterium would most likely view this?

I do see a lot of personal opinions and views, and clearly fueled by emotions, but not to much as to where we can go an educated ourselves.

TIA 🙂
As someone else mentioned, the National Catholic Bioethics Center does a pretty nice job of simplifying things into simple laymen’s terms.

If you are up for it, try The Way of the Lord Jesus, Christian Moral Principles by Germaine Grisez. It’s heavy, but there are very good summaries at the end of each chapter.

Unfortunately, moral theology is a field where a number of the experts have strayed from authoritative teaching out of a misguided adherence to proportionalism or to an ill conceived understanding of being pastoral. We have to be very careful that we are reading faithful moral theologians. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but among them are:

Christian Brugger (IMHO, the best there is)
William May
Germaine Grisez
Fr. Nicanor Austriaco, O.P.
Janet Smith (she’s very good, and certainly very faithful, but as I understand it, she is not actually trained in the field of moral theology)
Fr. Richard Giertech, O.P.

Again, this is by no means an exhaustive list. I’m just thinking of names I’ve either studied under or read.
 
Rather then use a procedure that has worked in the past you would prefer one that has never worked.
Does not seem very logical.
We need to demonstrate that this procedure has worked for 14-week-old fetuses before we assert it as true. Please provide the case studies where 14-week-old fetuses in BD mothers have survived. I can only find cases and studies where they haven’t. In the 20+ week range; yes. In the 14+/- week range; no.
 
We don’t know. Just like the Church doesn’t know when ensoulment occurs, other than we are certain the child has a soul at birth.
It is true that the Church does not teach at what point ensoulment occurs, but I think that it’s fairly obvious from a biological point of view that life begins at conception. It is at conception that one has a new being begin, a being different from either parent. What’s “potential” about that?
 
Why is it every argument for cutting life support of the mother appears to be an argument used by abortion advocates?
There is no such thing as “life support” for a BD mother, therefore one can’t cut off something that does not exist.
Could it be because at their core the two arguments are really the same?
The Catholic Church views these situations as entirely different, so the answer is no.
 
As someone else mentioned, the National Catholic Bioethics Center does a pretty nice job of simplifying things into simple laymen’s terms.

If you are up for it, try The Way of the Lord Jesus, Christian Moral Principles by Germaine Grisez. It’s heavy, but there are very good summaries at the end of each chapter.

Unfortunately, moral theology is a field where a number of the experts have strayed from authoritative teaching out of a misguided adherence to proportionalism or to an ill conceived understanding of being pastoral. We have to be very careful that we are reading faithful moral theologians. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but among them are:

Christian Brugger (IMHO, the best there is)
William May
Germaine Grisez
Fr. Nicanor Austriaco, O.P.
Janet Smith (she’s very good, and certainly very faithful, but as I understand it, she is not actually trained in the field of moral theology)
Fr. Richard Giertech, O.P.

Again, this is by no means an exhaustive list. I’m just thinking of names I’ve either studied under or read.
Thank you very much.

I find this thread has become so full of high emotion that trying to discern truth has become muddled.
 
There is no such thing as “life support” for a BD mother, therefore one can’t cut off something that does not exist.
semantics are a poor argument.
Life is being supported. Whether mother or child.

And the point stands.
All arguments for removing that support appear to be arguments used by abortion advocates to support their evil.
 
It’s all about which definition you choose. It could be any time from before conception until the time of birth. It’s not relevant to the discussion.
Perhaps not pertinent to the discussion, but very telling of the abortion advocates that fall into the same words, phrases and ideas.
 
semantics are a poor argument.
Life is being supported. Whether mother or child.

And the point stands.
All arguments for removing that support appear to be arguments used by abortion advocates to support their evil.
That may be, but if that is true, then that is only the result of poor arguments being made by those suggesting that it is immoral to remove life support.

Please understand, I’m not arguing that the correct decision was made. I think legitimate arguments, that are in line with established Church teaching, can be made on both sides of the issue. Again, it’s sort of like the issue of embryo adoption. There are faithful theologians on both sides of the debate who are doing what theologians are SUPPOSED to do–namely, hash out the issues to arrive at a greater understanding of truth.

All I am merely suggesting is that the truth in this matter is by no means clear.

What we know is this:
  1. You can never actively do or will evil so that good may result from it. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. Regardless of how good the end you have in sight may be, you can’t actively will evil to bring it about
  2. But, you CAN tolerate a foreseen–BUT UNINTENDED–evil consequence, provided you have a iusta causa, a just cause, for doing so.
What needs to be debated is whether or not there existed a iusta causa to remove life support from the mother, thus resulting in the foreseen, but unintended death of the child.

Again, this situation is NOT murder. No one actively killed the child, and presumably no one willed his/her death. We allow people to die all of the time. It happens on a regular basis in hospitals and nursing homes.

One of the problems with this case is that there really is no good analogical case to look at so as to come to a better understanding.

Ectopic pregnancies are quite different due to the fact that the mother is very much alive. The classic case of, “Two people are dying in a burning building and you can only save one. Have you killed the one you didn’t save?” does not work either as both the life of the mother and of the unborn baby are lost in this case.

Moreover, suppose the following example. You come upon a car accident and at very little cost to yourself, have an opportunity to stop, check on the injured, and call 911. You do not do so, and instead, keep driving. One of the occupants in the vehicle later dies from injuries sustained in the crash that, had emergency personnel been notified, would have been quite treatable. Are you responsible for the person’s death? Clearly, the answer is yes. There is no iusta causa to justify driving past. But what if you’re taking your husband to the hospital as he himself is having a heart attack? Are you still culpable in the person’s death? No. Why? Because you have a iusta causa for driving past. However, even this analogy falls short because it fails to illustrate exactly what needs to be debated–namely, is there, or is there not, a iusta causa for tolerating the death of the child.

I think a reasonable case can be made that there is: psychological stress on the family, use of resources (financial, medicinal, hospital personnel) that are needed elsewhere, from a spiritual point of view, not allowing the woman’s soul to go to its place of rest. (Obviously, this last point is speculative. We don’t know when God brings the soul to Himself. But, we do know that even if the person is “only” brain dead, the Church permits the celebration of the Anointing of the Sick, and as we know, sacraments cannot be celebrated for the dead. So, it seems to me that the Church is at the very least erring on the side of caution that the individual is still alive.

It is, in all sincerity, one of the hardest cases I’ve ever encountered in my (relatively) short time studying and teaching morality.
 
I honestly believe that this case has to do with giving ordinary care, or extraordinary to the baby.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

**
**2278 ****Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected.
**

I’m not sure we have the ability to prevent the death of an unborn child when the mother suffers such a long time without oxygen.

I am not sure that this attempt was nothing more than a prolongation of the child’s death.
 
semantics are a poor argument.
Life is being supported. Whether mother or child.

And the point stands.
All arguments for removing that support appear to be arguments used by abortion advocates to support their evil.
You should really stop the comparing what is acceptable by the Church to what abortion advocates argue.
 
I am not sure that this attempt was nothing more than a prolongation of the child’s death.
That is exactly my point. There is no evidence a child under these conditions can survive, other than emotion-based speculation. If one believes that a child of 14 weeks has any type of feeling, then there had better be good reason to prolong its inevitable death.
 
That may be, but if that is true, then that is only the result of poor arguments being made by those suggesting that it is immoral to remove life support.

Please understand, I’m not arguing that the correct decision was made. I think legitimate arguments, that are in line with established Church teaching, can be made on both sides of the issue. Again, it’s sort of like the issue of embryo adoption. There are faithful theologians on both sides of the debate who are doing what theologians are SUPPOSED to do–namely, hash out the issues to arrive at a greater understanding of truth.

All I am merely suggesting is that the truth in this matter is by no means clear.

What we know is this:
  1. You can never actively do or will evil so that good may result from it. In other words, the ends do not justify the means. Regardless of how good the end you have in sight may be, you can’t actively will evil to bring it about
Agreed.
  1. But, you CAN tolerate a foreseen–BUT UNINTENDED–evil consequence, provided you have a iusta causa, a just cause, for doing so.
Double effect.
I understand and agree here as well.
What needs to be debated is whether or not there existed a iusta causa to remove life support from the mother, thus resulting in the foreseen, but unintended death of the child.
Agreed.
Again, this situation is NOT murder. No one actively killed the child, and presumably no one willed his/her death. We allow people to die all of the time. It happens on a regular basis in hospitals and nursing homes.

One of the problems with this case is that there really is no good analogical case to look at so as to come to a better understanding.

Ectopic pregnancies are quite different due to the fact that the mother is very much alive. The classic case of, “Two people are dying in a burning building and you can only save one. Have you killed the one you didn’t save?” does not work either as both the life of the mother and of the unborn baby are lost in this case.

Moreover, suppose the following example. You come upon a car accident and at very little cost to yourself, have an opportunity to stop, check on the injured, and call 911. You do not do so, and instead, keep driving. One of the occupants in the vehicle later dies from injuries sustained in the crash that, had emergency personnel been notified, would have been quite treatable. Are you responsible for the person’s death? Clearly, the answer is yes. There is no iusta causa to justify driving past. But what if you’re taking your husband to the hospital as he himself is having a heart attack? Are you still culpable in the person’s death? No. Why? Because you have a iusta causa for driving past. However, even this analogy falls short because it fails to illustrate exactly what needs to be debated–namely, is there, or is there not, a iusta causa for tolerating the death of the child.

I think a reasonable case can be made that there is: psychological stress on the family, use of resources (financial, medicinal, hospital personnel) that are needed elsewhere, from a spiritual point of view, not allowing the woman’s soul to go to its place of rest. (Obviously, this last point is speculative. We don’t know when God brings the soul to Himself. But, we do know that even if the person is “only” brain dead, the Church permits the celebration of the Anointing of the Sick, and as we know, sacraments cannot be celebrated for the dead. So, it seems to me that the Church is at the very least erring on the side of caution that the individual is still alive.

It is, in all sincerity, one of the hardest cases I’ve ever encountered in my (relatively) short time studying and teaching morality.
Since the mother is deceased, we are in effect maintaining the body to support the child inside it.
The mother cannot be suffering, she is deceased.
And unlike heroic life support measures in a nursing home, we are not simply delaying death. The expected outcome is life.
The only argument I could see would be removal of the support systems to ease emotional suffering on the part of the husband.
However, is emotional distress really more important then the life of the child.

We readily have an answer when pro-abortion people claim undue stress in a pregnancy.
So why is the answer suddenly different now?
I do not believe it to be.
 
Agreed.

Double effect.
I understand and agree here as well.

Agreed.

Since the mother is deceased, we are in effect maintaining the body to support the child inside it.
The mother cannot be suffering, she is deceased.
And unlike heroic life support measures in a nursing home, we are not simply delaying death. The expected outcome is life.
The only argument I could see would be removal of the support systems to ease emotional suffering on the part of the husband.
However, is emotional distress really more important then the life of the child.

We readily have an answer when pro-abortion people claim undue stress in a pregnancy.
So why is the answer suddenly different now?
I do not believe it to be.
Wrong. The expected outcome = we don’t know. Life…prolongation of death…causation of developmental abnormalities in the child that would otherwise have not occurred…

What we do know is that the means to that outcome involve extraordinary, expensive and burdensome (to the family at least) measures to keep alive the organs of a person who is dead, so that the baby in her womb can be subjected to a state-mandated (?) experiment.
 
I honestly believe that this case has to do with giving ordinary care, or extraordinary to the baby.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
**2278 **
Burdensome - All medical procedures are to one degree or another burdensome.
I am uncertain anyone would argue on the burdensome point.

Dangerous - no, it is not dangerous. The mother is already dead, the worst case here is the child dies. No one that is not already at risk by the circumstance is at risk.
And they certainly are not at more risk.

Extraordinary - absolutely. So are heart transplants.

Disproportionate to the expected outcome - doubt it. If expected outcome is life.
 
After a few weeks into this thread, what I find most disturbing is not that people have different views (that’s natural) but that some of these views rest on personal assumptions/biases as opposed to the facts of the actual situation.

As Catholics, it is important to keep this situation in perspective. God called this mother home…did He not know she had a baby growing within her and that the initial oxygen deprivation followed by brain death (of the mother) would also have profound effects on the baby?

I fear that some ignore the scientific realities of pregnancy. The womb is not just some inert shell to which oxygen and nutrients are piped via blood vessels - the mother and baby are intimately entwined in myriad different ways via multiple biological pathways and if the mother is not thriving, neither will the baby. For one a couple weeks away from viability, that intimate connection might not be so vital, but for a 14 week pregnancy it very much is.

Who are we to demand artificial (that word is critical) continuation of that tiny life in such grossly abnormal circumstances? What is humility, if not the acknowledgment that we cannot decide everything because we don’t know everything?
 
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