Thank God for Evolution!

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Exactly what any non-believer would say. Maybe evolution really does lead to athiesm?
I really do think that’s an unfair characterization of Petrus’s statement. That is certainly a fair statement one might expect from someone well trained and educated in scriptural criticism. Such never in any way can or should be used to conclude the faith beliefs of the speaker.
 
There has been a conspiratorial attack, it’s the forces of darkness and the final battle between good and evil. It’s even more upsetting when the battle starts taking place within the church rather than outside of it.
Your statement is so far out of line from the post. Apparently you are going to call names now too. I’m an atheist in your book. So be it.
 
Thou shall not contracept is quite different than Theology of the Body.
you know you seem like a nice enough fellow, but I’m unable to understand these crytically short one sentence retorts. That’s the second or third time now. If there is a point, please make it. 🙂
 
edwest2;3043570:
That it is may be, but how does any of this have anything to do with evolution?
sorry I didnt say it…Ed did. I only said that upon reflection I choose not to debate him any longer. It’s too clear that his issues are a good deal deeper than evolution. I have no qualifications in that area.
 
I really do think that’s an unfair characterization of Petrus’s statement. That is certainly a fair statement one might expect from someone well trained and educated in scriptural criticism. Such never in any way can or should be used to conclude the faith beliefs of the speaker.
Thank you, SpiritMeadow, for your response to Neil Anthony. My graduate degrees are from Oxford, where I engaged in courteous and spirited debate with Anglicans and Catholics and Free Church evangelicals, with Muslims and Hindus and atheist philosophers. I have taught theology for twenty-seven years – including in monasteries to future priests and nuns. Until today, I have never encountered someone either so stupid, so theologically ignorant, or so evil of heart as to accuse me of atheism. I’m sorry he is implicating you in this as well.

Thank you for your support. If I am banned by the CAF moderators for speaking the truth, I go with a clear conscience, and you will know where to contact me.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
 
Petrus,

Interesting tag line. The ‘religious right’ is a meaningless term to me. When I walk down the street, I see no labels on people identifying their political standing.

It is unfortunate that this issue has boiled down to a temporal power struggle. Who will ‘win’ the battle for hearts and minds, God, or some human group that only seeks to keep power and control for itself, and by any means necessary.

For the record, I do not hate anyone. People who harm me or attempt to harm me or others I care about may get me angry but hate? No.

God bless,
Ed
 
Thank you, SpiritMeadow, for your response to Neil Anthony. My graduate degrees are from Oxford, where I engaged in courteous and spirited debate with Anglicans and Catholics and Free Church evangelicals, with Muslims and Hindus and atheist philosophers. I have taught theology for twenty-seven years – including in monasteries to future priests and nuns. Until today, I have never encountered someone either so stupid, so theologically ignorant, or so evil of heart as to accuse me of atheism. I’m sorry he is implicating you in this as well.

Thank you for your support. If I am banned by the CAF moderators for speaking the truth, I go with a clear conscience, and you will know where to contact me.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Petrus,

I don’t think you are an atheist. I didn’t accuse you of actually being an atheist. I just wish that when you explain the scholarly side of things, you would not just explain what you don’t get from the scripture, but also what a person of faith should get from it. If your statements knock down the traditional interpretation without giving a new interpretation, they can sometimes resemble things that a nonbeliever would say.

I am sorry that I hurt your feelings.

The comment about “pelvic morality” really got under my skin. Is that phrase meant to mock catholic teachings on sex, birth control, and/or abotion? I don’t know how else to take it.

Neil
 
Until today, I have never encountered someone either so stupid, so theologically ignorant, or so evil of heart as to accuse me of atheism. I’m sorry he is implicating you in this as well.

Prayerfully yours,
Petrus
Well, being an atheist isn’t so terrible you know:-) It’s possible to be an atheist in good conscience, to be a good human being and a good friend to believers and non-believers alike.

But, to be serious, this board seems to attract an inordinate number of people who hold that all those who do not adhere to their particular narrow brand of belief are atheists, heretics, amoralists and damned.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
But, to be serious, this board seems to attract an inordinate number of people who hold that all those who do not adhere to their particular narrow brand of belief are atheists, heretics, amoralists and damned.
Hey, 3 out of 4 ain’t bad.😃
 
Exactly what any non-believer would say. Maybe evolution really does lead to athiesm?
To be fair, I don’t think evolution automatically leads to atheism. However, I do think that evolution all by itself without any reference point to God can indeed lead people down the wrong path philosophically speaking-- but only because they don’t really understand the co-operative nature of tandem evolution in my opinion.

They insist that evolution implies a “survival of the fittest” when in reality it implied nothing of the sort. Evolution, properly understood, at least in my opinion, implies the “the path of least resistance” more clearly.

In general, Christianity and Judaism regard the Holy Scriptures as the revealed word of God. However, widespread variation on what this revelation means (or to what extent or what books) it applies to can become very confusing.

For example, although Orthodox Jews generally believe that the Torah was given to the Children of Israel at Sinai “Min Hashamayim”, from the heavens – that is, that God actually dictated the words of Torah to Moses atop Mount Sinai – most Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews, as well as many Christian scholars, now accept the documentary hypothesis.

From my own perspective, I’ll say that I do believe that the Scriptures are in some way authored by God. Refining this more clearly in my own Christian perspective, I believe the authors of the Scriptures wrote as they were superintended by the inspiration of the Spirit of God.

However, when I say that I believe this, I’m not saying that I believe that the individual books of the Scriptures were penned at one time as a whole.

I believe the Scriptures were, for example, subject to expansion and editting by the Holy Spirit as the times and cultures changed around the Hebrew culture which embraced them-- permitted so long as the editting did not contradict the primal revelation.

As another example, I also believe that God allowed a remnant of a primal revelation in man’s distant past to disperse via the Holy Spirit thoughtout the cultures of humanity. This is to say, I believe the naratives of ancient religions carried a distant memory of the primal revelation – albeit, a distant memory distorted over time.

In addition to this, in confirmation with the Scriptures themselves, I believe that, since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

It is in this revelatory sense that I’ve been wondering how evolution fits into this framework of God’s revelation of himself through creation-- and, to date, all’s that I’ve really received regaridng this question is that evolution effectively tells us nothing about God.

I simply don’t accept this answer and find it somewhat lacking considering all the thought that’s been put into it.

In my own opinion, I think there are different levels of revelation. And although all levels, each with their own corresponding level of responsibility, are inspired by the Holy Spirit, I still nonetheless believe that the Holy Spirit can communicate to us by various mediums and peoples, including other monotheists, polytheists, and atheists.

He most especially, notwithstanding their religious or non-religious background, presents himself to us through the the poor. He indwells us by his Holy Spirit, allegorically speaking, bringing about birthpangs in our soul much like a woman bearing a child. And, manifesting the primal sacrament of Christ on the cross like a tesseract transfigured thoughout time and space, he is truly present to us in the Eucharist…
 
continued
Acts 7:22:
Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was powerful in speech and action.
Coming back to the initial composition of the Scriptures during the time of Moses, however, my own personal opinion is that when Moses was called by God in Egypt, God allowed Moses to be educated within the cosmopolitan philosophies of Pharaoh’s court for a unifying reason.

In Egypt, Moses had access to an extensive body of ancient writings by which God brought together the most primal themes of humanity’s distant past.

Orally, I believe that Moses carried with him the traditions from the time of Abraham – so he was most familiar with this information.

Academically, when the Israelite traditions were coupled with the distant memories contained within the written archives of humanity’s ancient past, he was also familiar to a lesser degree with our primal origins.

Spiritually, as moved by the Holy Spirit, he was in communion with the Lord Jesus and placed firmly within a position whereby he could clearly grasp the Lord’s will and unify all these sources.
Rabbi Elijah:
The world will exist six thousand years. The first two thousand years were those of chaos [without the Torah]. The second two thousand years were those under the Torah. The last two thousand years are the messianic years.
Although I don’t believe the world has been around for merely 6,000 years, in the scope of recent human history since the last ice age, this quote noted above does somewhat capture what I believe as far as the earliest peoples of the world rising out of am initial period of darkness.

I believe God inspired Moses to whittle away the multiple layers of alternative thinking to recapture – whether by poetic utterances, prophetic statements, or moral instruction – the primal historical revelation of man’s common origins once again. And this is the dialectic that I believe the Holy Scriptures have undergone over the course of human history.

In other words, although I don’t believe the Scriptures are a gradual invention of humanity’s collective “unconscious” religious thinking over time, they still nonetheless appear to be a progressive “dialectic” revelation of God’s original will by the Holy Spirit-- the same Spirit which has been calling all of humanity from the very beginning.

For the record, these statements above would place me deeply in the “liberal side” of theology to some. And yet I draw very “conservative” conclusions from this liberal approach too. So I’m really not sure if these labels are actually effective when discussing these topics. Don’t seem to assist me too much anyway. 🙂
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo,

Evolution effectively tells us nothing about God. The theory, as written, ascribes purely natural/mechanistic reasons for our existence. In an atmosphere, especially today, where God is being uncoupled from public places, the perception that purely natural/mechanistic means brought us into existence is pervasive.

It also doesn’t help when I got a phone call from a young man not too long ago, who told me “We’re all just animals.” An idea currently being popularized. Also, ‘evolutionary psychology’ tells us our genes alone are the reason we act and react as we do. Any supernatural/spiritual experiences are only in our brains.

So, there you have it. You are a biological mechanism. Your intrinsic value and function is to reproduce successfully. That’s it.

For Christians, God is the completing part of the answer. But science and public schools, by definition, must exclude Him. Therefore, unless someone else tells you about God, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die, and only the worms of the earth will get something out of that.

God bless,
Ed
 
Dowd, who professed sympathy for intelligent design supporters but criticized their reactionary, circle-the-wagons approach to modernity, doesn’t think evolution is mechanistic or pointless. He sees a universal evolutionary trajectory from disorder to order, simplicity to complexity and brutality to cooperation – and that, he believes, is the grand narrative that will sustain the science-friendly religions of the 21st century.
“Evolutionary theology offers a third way. Rightly understood, evolution is as sacred and meaningful as any of the creation myths,” said Dowd, who quoted biology titan E.O. Wilson, sometimes called Darwin’s heir: “The evolutionary epic is probably the best myth we’ll ever have.”
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo,

Evolution effectively tells us nothing about God.
See, that’s what theistic evolutionists say as well-- so perhaps there is some truth this this. But if someone who believes in theistic evolution beleives this, then how can they reconcile evolution with passages such as 1 Corinthians 14:32-34 for example…
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.
Could it be said that this passage doesn’t disparage disorder, but rather proclaims that there is peace in God despite the disorder we see in the world around us? Does God not bring order from disorder, law from chaos, and existence from non-existence?
The theory, as written, ascribes purely natural/mechanistic reasons for our existence.
But then one has to explain why people like Francis Collins and Kenneth Miller are able to be at peace with God notwithstanding their affirmation that God employed evolution to speciate humanity from various life-forms.

I think this is a valid observation that needs to be fairly explained.
In an atmosphere, especially today, where God is being uncoupled from public places, the perception that purely natural/mechanistic means brought us into existence is pervasive.
You will find no argument from me on this point Ed. I agree that civilization is definitely being decoupled from God through atheistic philosophy.

However, and this is the point that I’m not so sure about, can one reasonably argue that the theory of evolution is solely responsible for this decoupling?
It also doesn’t help when I got a phone call from a young man not too long ago, who told me “We’re all just animals.” An idea currently being popularized.
While I sympathize with what you’re saying, I have to ask if this is the way it has to be?

For example, you brought up the Arian heresies in the early church and how wide-spread it had become before the Church finally stamped it down. Indeed, it got kind of scarey there for a while.

Is it possible the current popularity of the theory of evolution is similar to the Arain heresy that was finally quashed after much deliberation?

Me peronsally, I do not believe this to be entirely true but I would be interested in hearing you thoughts on this.

First of all, two recent Popes have definitely said that are permitted to believe this but simply caution that we do not have all the answers yet.

Secondly, there is indeed much good that has come from the theory of evolution, specifically within the field of medicine due to the modern synthesis of genetics and evolution

These are very positive things. 🙂
Also, ‘evolutionary psychology’ tells us our genes alone are the reason we act and react as we do. Any supernatural/spiritual experiences are only in our brains.
I would suggest these people read this book. I don’t believe that our genes alone are the reason we act and react as we do. I also think that anyone who seriosuly examines the “evidence” cannot fairly make this claim without revealing their own atheistic bias either.

Of course, some will counter that I’m biased toward Christianity. But I think this is a moot point, especially since I’ve never claimed to not be biased toward Christianity-- and I’ve stated this many times too. The ‘wicked silliness’ in these kinds of debates is that those who have an atheistic bias simply think they have no bias at all-- and I think this is a bogus claim on their part too.
So, there you have it. You are a biological mechanism. Your intrinsic value and function is to reproduce successfully. That’s it.
But that’s not it Ed. And theistic evolutionists will tell you this too. 🙂
For Christians, God is the completing part of the answer. But science and public schools, by definition, must exclude Him. Therefore, unless someone else tells you about God, eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die, and only the worms of the earth will get something out of that.
God bless,
Ed
But we all know that this is not the end Ed, regardless of whether we adhere to young-earth creationism, gap-theories, intelligent design, or theistic evolution. We all know that physical death is simply not the end of life. It’s only the beginning.

And I personally think that the “begining from the end” approach of evolution can help us to understand God better too. 🙂
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo,

I didn’t bring up the Arian heresies.

Pope Benedict has mentioned that science has a use but is limited. It cannot answer all questions about living and dying. The atmosphere is being created whereby people have the perception science can and will answer all questions.

As you may recall, many great scientists who were Christians expected to find order in the universe. Pope Benedict refers to those who believe disorder led to order are those “fooled by
atheism.”

Pope Benedict wants a vigorous dialogue with science but it must be a science free of naturalist only explanations. For what then is there a place for God? Evolutionists will also tell you that god and religion ‘evolved’ as a survival mechanism. A useful fantasy before we had the brains and knowledge we have now. The atheist is pounding on the door of the Church, “We know everything now! We don’t need you anymore! Just stay in your buildings and quit bothering us!”

Look at Romans 2:20

The two part answer is this: partly, whatever evidence of evolution as Pope Benedict has stated, and, in continuity with Humani Generis (as was Pope John Paul II), divine revelation that tells us of the sin of our first parents.

I tell you this brother, do not be anxious about this, which men speak of over and over and over, as those employed as town criers and advertisers, sent by others to convince you that a thing is true. If something is true, it needs no further advertising. If a teenager can understand it, so can a man. But the snare is from those who proclaim only the science and allow not even the tiniest bit of light for the Light of the World. I’m not talking about scientists here, but the proclaimers all over the internet, single minded and daily in their work. And diligent for what reason? Ask yourself that. This is not some rare, hidden thing for only a few.

Wait on the Church and read what the Pope has written. God is the complementary rest of the answer with science.

God bless,
Ed
 
The story the Hebrew scripture writers told about themselves and their experience with God must be read in light of the jumbled political texture of the Ancient Near East. The Hebrews were a relatively small Semitic group constantly jostled by the machinations of superpowers like Sumer, Akkad, Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Greece, and Rome.

The vicissitudes of Hebrew fortunes followed the geopolitical ebb and flow of these imperial superpowers over many centuries. For about four hundred years, during the composition of the Pentateuch and its redaction into what we know as the Deuteronomic History, the inspired Hebrew authors interpreted the events going on around them – and their own varying fortunes of “chosenness,” exodus, wandering, the “promised land,” kingdoms, apostasy, destruction, forgiveness, faithfulness, exile, and return – they interpreted each of these events providentially as being revelatory either of divine chastisement or of divine favour.

Petrus
I suppose we can approach this that way if you wish. But you haven’t actually answered my question.

Did God not punish the Isrealites in the same exact same manner that he punished the pagan nations around his “chosen people”?

A simple yes or no will suffice. 🙂

If no, then could you please explain to me why this is not so when the Scriptural record so abundantly records that this is indeed the manner in which he also treated his own “chosen people”?

If yes, then I think we can progress to Point 2 that you noted earlier.

Thanks. 🙂
 
Mr. Ex Nihilo,

I didn’t bring up the Arian heresies.
My apologies Ed. There’s been so many threads on this topic, that it’s very hard to keep track of it all.

Me personally, I think some current arguments in favor of theistic evolution are indeed akin to the struggles with Arianism that the early Christians prevailed over.

I’m not talking about evolution within the sphere of methodical materialism. I’m talking about evolution within the sphere of philosophical materialism which does indeed apear to be seditiously attempting to erode the foundations under the pillar and foundation of truth-- and often by those who do indeed have very sincere intentions to defend God.

I would like you to assist me in discussing this but I think you have much to learn about evolution before you could accurately defend it. I am hoping that you can learn from this thread and others like it.
Pope Benedict has mentioned that science has a use but is limited. It cannot answer all questions about living and dying. The atmosphere is being created whereby people have the perception science can and will answer all questions.
You’re exatly right. It’s called scientism and it’s definitely a heretical thought than cannot be entertained without placing oneself in spiritual danger.
As you may recall, many great scientists who were Christians expected to find order in the universe.
I do recall this. 🙂
Pope Benedict refers to those who believe disorder led to order are those “fooled by atheism.”
And yet, according to 1 Corinthians 1:25, the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength. Likewise, as 1 Corinthians 1:21 states, since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Indeed, as 1 Corinthians 1:18 proclaims, the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

I’m not saying that those who believe disorder led to order are not those “fooled by atheism.” I’m saying that **we who who believe God could use disorder to lead to order **are those who “hope in God”.

Indeed, as 2 Corinthians 4:16 says…
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
 
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