Thank God for Evolution!

[buffalo]

I think the narrative of Eve coming from Adam’s rib is an account that attempts to explain why men and women relate to another the way they do: since Adam was, in some sense, Eve’s “father”, and since Eve and Adam got “married”, the story of Eve coming from Adam’s rib explains why women tend to marry guys who remind them of their fathers; and why men say regarding women: can’t live with them (since one could make the argument that Adam’s extra rib was actually causing him chest pains), can’t live without’em (since Adam needed Eve, however much he didn’t want to need her).

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Coming from Adam’s rib has been understood to mean from his side.

 

[buffalo]

Rather, according to your view, the Church combines selected bits of revelation with selected bits of science that happen to be palatable. Many traditions do that – skewing their interpretation of science to fit a particular world view.

Read this Papal encyclical to see the error in this.

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X
ON THE DOCTRINES
OF THE MODERNISTS

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Coming from Adam’s rib has been understood to mean from his side.

That’s what I was thinking too. Indeed, if this were not the case, then the theological ramifications of the Old Adam and Old Eve in contrast to the New Eve and New Adam seem to break down to the point that it’s rendered virtually meaningless.

 

[edwest2]

A quote: “The enemies of divine revelation extol human progress to the skies, and with rash and sacrilegious daring would have it introduced into the Catholic religion as if this religion were not the work of God but of man…”

And here is the core of the issue. Accept this “new” new knowledge, indulge yourself in this wonderful thing man has found out! It will change everything!!

But Christ Himself is the cornerstone, the Word has been established, the foundation has been laid.

The atheist has clothed himself in science and is knocking on the door of the Church: “Let me in! I have new knowlege you cannot ignore! You miserable, ignorant people! I will purge all superstition and belief from you!! Man will become greater than any God you can imagine!!!”

Humble yourself before God. Be obedient in the ways He has established for the benefit of all mankind. Ignore those who demand from what God has established, some sort of change in the divine deposit of truth He has given us. Science is incomplete without God. Because, without the most vital component, God Himself, science is indeed incomplete.

God bless,
Ed

 

[drpmjhess]

Science is incomplete without God. Because, without the most vital component, God Himself, science is indeed incomplete.God bless,Ed

Of course. And without science, Catholics would still be worshipping in unheated cathedrals using only candle light, with blower boys straining to power organs. There would be no EWTN, no PA systems to assist weak-voiced homilists, no airplane flight to waft bishops to the Vatican. To paraphrase (and improve upon) Einstein, Science without religion is blind; religion without science is lame. You can’t responsibly be a “cafeteria” science consumer, readily putting on your plate those scientific findings that are palatable, and leaving on the table those that aren’t.

Petrus

PS – For the record, I love candlelit services, human-powered organs, acapella singing, and walking to Mass.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Coming from Adam’s rib has been understood to mean from his side.

See this is what I don’t understand. Some one makes a lovely theological statement about scripture and its trashed as not being literal enough. It’s just beyond me. I think what happens in the end, is that some folks decide who the “enemies” are and attack every single thing they say, regardless. They don’t even read them carefully, just look for a point of attack.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

A quote: “The enemies of divine revelation extol human progress to the skies, and with rash and sacrilegious daring would have it introduced into the Catholic religion as if this religion were not the work of God but of man…”

And here is the core of the issue. Accept this “new” new knowledge, indulge yourself in this wonderful thing man has found out! It will change everything!!

But Christ Himself is the cornerstone, the Word has been established, the foundation has been laid.

The atheist has clothed himself in science and is knocking on the door of the Church: “Let me in! I have new knowlege you cannot ignore! You miserable, ignorant people! I will purge all superstition and belief from you!! Man will become greater than any God you can imagine!!!”

Humble yourself before God. Be obedient in the ways He has established for the benefit of all mankind. Ignore those who demand from what God has established, some sort of change in the divine deposit of truth He has given us. Science is incomplete without God. Because, without the most vital component, God Himself, science is indeed incomplete.
**Right you are Ed. Just call everyone who disagrees with you an atheist. It’s your final argument every time. so sad. **

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

See this is what I don’t understand. Some one makes a lovely theological statement about scripture and its trashed as not being literal enough. It’s just beyond me. I think what happens in the end, is that some folks decide who the “enemies” are and attack every single thing they say, regardless. They don’t even read them carefully, just look for a point of attack.

That’s not true SpiritMeadow.

I’ve actually really enjoyed this thread and your thoughts.

Consequently, the coming from Adam’s side may also mean a monogamous relationship too–ie., marriage. It may not be literal to be fair.

 

[buffalo]

See this is what I don’t understand. Some one makes a lovely theological statement about scripture and its trashed as not being literal enough. It’s just beyond me. I think what happens in the end, is that some folks decide who the “enemies” are and attack every single thing they say, regardless. They don’t even read them carefully, just look for a point of attack.

A literal understanding is what the original author meant to say. Statements are cool but meaningless without the proper understanding.

 

[drpmjhess]

A literal understanding is what the original author meant to say. Statements are cool but meaningless without the proper understanding.

As in Joshua 10:13 “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies…So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.” The author meant that literally, as he did when referring to the literal days of Genesis 1. What he said simply was not true, even if in his prescientific cosmology it was common sense.

Petrus

 

[buffalo]

As in Joshua 10:13 “And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies…So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.” The author meant that literally, as he did when referring to the literal days of Genesis 1. What he said simply was not true, even if in his prescientific cosmology it was common sense.

Petrus

How do you know this is not a correct account?

Miracles defy common sense. The sun danced at Fatima and thousands saw it. 1,000 years from now someone will discount this too as defying common sense.

You simply cannot say that this never happened. You should know this.

 

[drpmjhess]

How do you know this is not a correct account? You simply cannot say that this never happened. You should know this.

I know it didn’t happen, because heliocentrism is as close to fact as anything we know. The Sungenites are plain wrong.

 

[drpmjhess]

You simply cannot say that this never happened. You should know this.

And if it were the earth that had stood still, all the people, trees, sheep, goats, grinding stones, oxcarts, camels, and houses would have been flung eastward at 1,000 miles per hour. And gigantic tsunamis thousands of feet high would have engulfed the west coasts of every continent as the oceans were flung from their basins. No literary record exists of such a global catastrophe.

 

[buffalo]

The Sungenites are plain wrong.

You cannot resist, can you Just about every point you resort to name calling. You cannot be a theologian even though you claim it.

 

[buffalo]

And if it were the earth that had stood still, all the people, trees, sheep, goats, grinding stones, oxcarts, camels, and houses would have been flung eastward at 1,000 miles per hour. And gigantic tsunamis thousands of feet high would have engulfed the west coasts of every continent as the oceans were flung from their basins. No literary record exists of such a global catastrophe.

You are kidding? If God stopped the sun then certainly He had control over the rest.

What you posit it God can perform a miracle but not have control over the secondaries?

Do you believe God can do miracles? or not?

 

[drpmjhess]

You are kidding? If God stopped the sun then certainly He had control over the rest. What you posit it God can perform a miracle but not have control over the secondaries?

Interesting question. So what you are suggesting is that it wasn’t just the earth’s crust that stopped for the duration of the battle, but the molten core and semi-molten mantle, and the seas and the atmosphere.

Since the magnetic field of the Earth is caused by the convection of molten iron within the outer liquid core, along with a Coriolis effect caused by the overall planetary rotation that tends to organize currents aligned along the north-south polar axis, God’s stopping of the earth’s rotation would have caused the magnetic field to collapse for the duration of the battle, exposing all life to the deadly radiation of the solar winds. Of course, God could have suspended all laws of nature for the duration of the battle, but I wonder how far out this would extend. Did the other planets cease their revolutions about the sun?

All this, of course, was for the pleasure of a God who two chapters before had commanded Joshua to slaughter and burn all the inhabitants of the innocent city of Ai (being invaded by the Israelites), including the women and children. Oh, but he did tell Joshua to spare the cattle – that’s important.

 

[buffalo]

Interesting question. So what you are suggesting is that it wasn’t just the earth’s crust that stopped for the duration of the battle, but the molten core and semi-molten mantle, and the seas and the atmosphere.

Since the magnetic field of the Earth is caused by the convection of molten iron within the outer liquid core, along with a Coriolis effect caused by the overall planetary rotation that tends to organize currents aligned along the north-south polar axis, God’s stopping of the earth’s rotation would have caused the magnetic field to collapse for the duration of the battle, exposing all life to the deadly radiation of the solar winds. Of course, God could have suspended all laws of nature for the duration of the battle, but I wonder how far out this would extend. Did the other planets cease their revolutions about the sun?

All this, of course, was for the pleasure of a God who two chapters before had commanded Joshua to slaughter and burn all the inhabitants of the innocent city of Ai (being invaded by the Israelites), including the women and children. Oh, but he did tell Joshua to spare the cattle – that’s important.

That seems to be a limited view of God’s capabilities. Perhaps He can perform miracles outside the 5 senses, 4 dimensions in ways that a flatlander could not perceive or even experience, or experience in ways unknown to us. He is the Creator of course.

Answer my question - Do you believe God can do miracles? or not?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Interesting question. So what you are suggesting is that it wasn’t just the earth’s crust that stopped for the duration of the battle, but the molten core and semi-molten mantle, and the seas and the atmosphere.

Since the magnetic field of the Earth is caused by the convection of molten iron within the outer liquid core, along with a Coriolis effect caused by the overall planetary rotation that tends to organize currents aligned along the north-south polar axis, God’s stopping of the earth’s rotation would have caused the magnetic field to collapse for the duration of the battle, exposing all life to the deadly radiation of the solar winds. Of course, God could have suspended all laws of nature for the duration of the battle, but I wonder how far out this would extend. Did the other planets cease their revolutions about the sun?

All this, of course, was for the pleasure of a God who two chapters before had commanded Joshua to slaughter and burn all the inhabitants of the innocent city of Ai (being invaded by the Israelites), including the women and children. Oh, but he did tell Joshua to spare the cattle – that’s important.

I think what he’s saying is that God can suspend his known laws without destroying the entire earth. Consequenlty, what you just supposed for the long day of Joshua some people claim happened and caused the great deluge in Noah’s time.

Me personally, if indeed the earth and moon and stopped, I think this is more of a suspension of time-space as we know it, albeit focussed in and around the Israelites on that day of battle. In other words, I think God may have simply slowed time itself down around the battle field – effectively causing a kind of time-dilation concentrated on the battle.

When compared to the environment around them, such as the sun and moon, the world would have been perceived as having “stopped” by those on the battle feild. But outside the region of time-dilation time would probably had flowed normally.

Certainly God is capaple of physically halting the universe if he were to so choose to do so-- but I’m not so sure this is what happened. It seems reasonable that he may have simply given them “more time” to complete the battle against the pagan forces, which fits in exactly with the destruction he commanded of the other despisable pagan nations within the surrounding area at other times too.

Like buffalo asked though, I too am curious-- do you actually believe in miracles?

 

[drpmjhess]

Certainly God is capaple of physically halting the universe if he were to so choose to do so-- but I’m not so sure this is what happened. It seems reasonable that he may have simply given them “more time” to complete the battle against the pagan forces, which fits in exactly with the destruction he commanded of the other despisable pagan nations within the surrounding area at other times too.

Like buffalo asked though, I too am curious-- do you actually believe in miracles?

Like buffalo asked though, I too am curious-- do you actually believe in miracles?

Yes, of course I believe in miracles. But I consider the source as well. The God of the Old Testament is a ferocious – even sometimes a sadistic – God, not in keeping with the God encountered by Jesus. A Hebrew story-telling scribe who delights in the destruction of whole innocent cities – whose only “crime” is desperately protecting their women and children and homes against a hostile invading force – and in the dashing of the heads of little ones against stones (Ps. 136:9), does not have much credibility, moral or scientific. And Buffalo still has not answered whether he believes that it was the sun that stood still – implying a geocentric cosmos – or the earth that stooped rotating. The difference is not irrelevant.

Your battlefield spatio-temporal suspension is an interesting theory, but an exegetically more economical one would be to regard this interesting episode as legend. Time may have seemed to stand sill to the victorious Israelites, and in the course of retelling through the generations, the time dilation got longer and longer, until eventually in oral tradition the device was introduced that the sun had stood still. The principles of oral tradition don’t change that much, from the Hebrew Scriptures to the Iliad and Odyssey, to Native America myths.

Petrus

 

[SpiritMeadow]

A literal understanding is what the original author meant to say. Statements are cool but meaningless without the proper understanding.

Good grief. Please go read Theology of Hope. JPII actually discusses both creation stories, their respective authors, when they were written down, which came from the older tradition. It’s so very obvious the stories are not to be received literally and I suspect very much they NEVER were thought of that way.