A
Ahimsa
Guest
Evolution is a miracle.
- Status
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Ahimsa: what was the next miracle after evolution?
I have no problem in believing in evolution and also believing in miracles.
I think that many people who claim to be Catholic and claim to believe in evolution DO have a problem with believing in miracles–if they didn’t have a problem with believing in miracles in the bible it would be No problem for them to be able to name the first miracle in the bible that could not be explained by science that they believe in!
Many in the evolution believing crowd want us to believe that Genesis is only allegorical .
What I’d like them to answer that they never do is when the first miracle in the bible occurred that could not be explained by science and was an actual historical event!
The ones who can point to such a miracle and say that the bible can be believed–I believe as being Catholics who believe in evolution without Any bit of special intervention or creation.
All the ones who can’t point to such a miracle in the bible that can be believed as the first miracle that we can believe as historically actually happened I do not believe!
They run from that question for the very reason that they do not believe!
If they do believe they can list that first miracle and all my charges against them will be dropped!
Where I Differ from alot of evolutionists is that I believe in evolution plus special creation and intervention.
I believe that Eve being created from Adam is more than allegorical truth–it is actual historical truth!
I believe that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens and both of them was specially created by God in a miraculous way but that all the rest that is said of evolution is true!
And I don’t see how it is unreasonable to believe in evolution And special creation if we already believe that God sets up the laws of the universe but does sometimes Intervene against scientific laws in miracles and certainly in the resurrection of Jesus!
One can believe in the special creation of Adam and Eve as the first homo Sapiens and also believe in evolution and also believe that much of the Genesis story shouldn’t be taken literally–but just because that is true does not mean that some of the Genesis story didn’t actually historically and literally happen!
If Jesus can rise from the dead when there is no scientific explanation don’t tell me that it is unreasonable or illogical to believe that God can create by Both evolutionary and special ways!
So oh evolution only believers–when did the first miracle in the bible take place if you don’t believe in the Miraculous special creation of Eve from Adam?
Thank God for the Miraculous Special Creation of Eve from Adam that had nothing to do with evolution!
I have no problem in believing in evolution and also believing in miracles.
I think that many people who claim to be Catholic and claim to believe in evolution DO have a problem with believing in miracles–if they didn’t have a problem with believing in miracles in the bible it would be No problem for them to be able to name the first miracle in the bible that could not be explained by science that they believe in!
Many in the evolution believing crowd want us to believe that Genesis is only allegorical .
What I’d like them to answer that they never do is when the first miracle in the bible occurred that could not be explained by science and was an actual historical event!
The ones who can point to such a miracle and say that the bible can be believed–I believe as being Catholics who believe in evolution without Any bit of special intervention or creation.
All the ones who can’t point to such a miracle in the bible that can be believed as the first miracle that we can believe as historically actually happened I do not believe!
They run from that question for the very reason that they do not believe!
If they do believe they can list that first miracle and all my charges against them will be dropped!
Where I Differ from alot of evolutionists is that I believe in evolution plus special creation and intervention.
I believe that Eve being created from Adam is more than allegorical truth–it is actual historical truth!
I believe that Adam and Eve were the first homo sapiens and both of them was specially created by God in a miraculous way but that all the rest that is said of evolution is true!
And I don’t see how it is unreasonable to believe in evolution And special creation if we already believe that God sets up the laws of the universe but does sometimes Intervene against scientific laws in miracles and certainly in the resurrection of Jesus!
One can believe in the special creation of Adam and Eve as the first homo Sapiens and also believe in evolution and also believe that much of the Genesis story shouldn’t be taken literally–but just because that is true does not mean that some of the Genesis story didn’t actually historically and literally happen!
If Jesus can rise from the dead when there is no scientific explanation don’t tell me that it is unreasonable or illogical to believe that God can create by Both evolutionary and special ways!
So oh evolution only believers–when did the first miracle in the bible take place if you don’t believe in the Miraculous special creation of Eve from Adam?
Thank God for the Miraculous Special Creation of Eve from Adam that had nothing to do with evolution!
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Evolution is continuous. There is no “after”.
Evolution is evolution ex nihilo.
God continuously “creates”, or “evolves”, the universe ex nihilo, in this moment, and in this moment, and in this moment.
T
The_Barbarian
Guest
Haven’t seen that. You are confusion our bodies, which are temporary and animal, with our souls, which are something of an entirely different character.
The earth brought forth our bodies, like the other animals. But that is not what makes us what we are.
That’s correct. I’m puzzled why you reject the way He did it.
And how is the Pope wrong in believing that this is consistent with evolution?
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
I’d still say that the first miracle in the bible is when, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. But it’s not just the first miracle, it’s also the last miracle, because even at this instant God creates the heavens and the earth. It would all cease to exist without God willing it to exist. So you might think I copped out of the question.
Let me find the next miracle in the bible after the creation accounts… Gen 5:24, Enoch taken into heaven. Does that qualify as a miracle?
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
**Continuation of my previous post to [Neil_Anthony
The criticisms often leveled against the Church Fathers are that their knowledge of science was primitive compared with that of today. This fact is obvious and has never been disputed. The value of the Fathers teaching, however, has nothing to do with science, but lies in the spirituality of their theology and metaphysics. The Apostolic Fathers would have acquired their ability to interpret the Bible from one or more of the Apostles. Since the latter learned the meaning of Scripture from Christ, the Church treasures highly the early Fathers’ exegeses and that of those to whom it was transferred.
The central theme of the Fathers’ teaching is that in the beginning the proto-type of « all things », each one separately, were created from nothing. Involving instantaneous production of first things, it obviates ancestors, thus leaving no place for evolutionary hypotheses.
St. Isaac the Syrian - Ascetical Homilies
«…one is already exalted in his mind to that which preceded the composition (making) of the world, when there was no creature, nor heaven, nor earth, nor angels, nothing of that which was brought into being, and to how God, solely by His good will, suddenly brought everything from non-being into being, and everything stood before Him in perfection» (Homily 37, p. 180).
St. Gregory of Nazianz - Orations
“Believe that the whole universe, that which is visible and that which is invisible, was made out of nothing by God, and is governed by the providence of its Creator…” (40,45)
St. Hilary of Poitiers - Commentaries on the Psalms
« By a statement addressed to the intellect, and not without perfect doctrinal reasoning, the prophet exhorts all the celestial powers to give praise. He avoids the first error of human ignorance, according to which the present state of the world assembles itself together by fortuitous and tumultuous circumstances and was thus established in order from disorder…[The prophet] excludes every ignorant error, when he says For the Lord spoke and they were made ; He commanded and they were created (Ps. 148 :5)
St. Irenaeus - Against Heresies
« God…formed all things through His Word, and fashioned and made all things which exist out of that which did not exist » (1,22,1)
“God, taking soil from the earth, made man. And surely it is much more difficult and more incredible that from non-existent bones and nerves and veins and the rest of the human system, He makes him to exist, and in fact raises him up as an animated and rational living being, than that He restores again that which had been made…” (5,3,2,)
The frequent use of the words all things by the Fathers, when discussing creation, precludes the idea that some things were created and others developed from them. They are incorporated in the dogmatic teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council on ex nihilo creation mentioned below. Regarding living things, they are equivalent to immutable essences, beings or natures.
St. Augustine of Hippo - Unfinished book on the literal interpretation of Genesis
“…He (God) made and created all things that exist, insofar as they do exist. This means that every creature, whether intellectual or corporeal, - or to say it more briefly in the words themselves of the divine Scriptures: whether invisible or visible, - is not born of God but is made out of nothing by God” (1)
St. Ambrose - Cain and Abel
“ Nor is it a matter of indifference that the woman was not formed of the same clay from which Adam was made, but was made from the rib of Adam himself, so that we might know that the flesh of man and woman is of but one nature, and that there is but one source of the human race. Therefore at the beginning it is not two that are made, man and woman, nor two men, nor two women, but first man is made, and then woman from him. For God willed to settle one nature upon mankind, and starting from one origin of this creature, He snatched away the possibility of numerous and disparate natures” (10,48)
St. Peter of Alexandria - The soul
“God said, Let us make man according to our image and according to our likeness (1:26). It is clear from this that man was not formed by the conjunction of the body with some pre-existing type. For if the earth, at a command, brought forth the other animals endowed with life, how much more certain it is that the dust which God took from the earth received vital energy from the will and operation of God” (Fragment 1)
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony ‘et al’**
The criticisms often leveled against the Church Fathers are that their knowledge of science was primitive compared with that of today. This fact is obvious and has never been disputed. The value of the Fathers teaching, however, has nothing to do with science, but lies in the spirituality of their theology and metaphysics. The Apostolic Fathers would have acquired their ability to interpret the Bible from one or more of the Apostles. Since the latter learned the meaning of Scripture from Christ, the Church treasures highly the early Fathers’ exegeses and that of those to whom it was transferred.
The central theme of the Fathers’ teaching is that in the beginning the proto-type of « all things », each one separately, were created from nothing. Involving instantaneous production of first things, it obviates ancestors, thus leaving no place for evolutionary hypotheses.
St. Isaac the Syrian - Ascetical Homilies
«…one is already exalted in his mind to that which preceded the composition (making) of the world, when there was no creature, nor heaven, nor earth, nor angels, nothing of that which was brought into being, and to how God, solely by His good will, suddenly brought everything from non-being into being, and everything stood before Him in perfection» (Homily 37, p. 180).
St. Gregory of Nazianz - Orations
“Believe that the whole universe, that which is visible and that which is invisible, was made out of nothing by God, and is governed by the providence of its Creator…” (40,45)
St. Hilary of Poitiers - Commentaries on the Psalms
« By a statement addressed to the intellect, and not without perfect doctrinal reasoning, the prophet exhorts all the celestial powers to give praise. He avoids the first error of human ignorance, according to which the present state of the world assembles itself together by fortuitous and tumultuous circumstances and was thus established in order from disorder…[The prophet] excludes every ignorant error, when he says For the Lord spoke and they were made ; He commanded and they were created (Ps. 148 :5)
St. Irenaeus - Against Heresies
« God…formed all things through His Word, and fashioned and made all things which exist out of that which did not exist » (1,22,1)
“God, taking soil from the earth, made man. And surely it is much more difficult and more incredible that from non-existent bones and nerves and veins and the rest of the human system, He makes him to exist, and in fact raises him up as an animated and rational living being, than that He restores again that which had been made…” (5,3,2,)
The frequent use of the words all things by the Fathers, when discussing creation, precludes the idea that some things were created and others developed from them. They are incorporated in the dogmatic teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council on ex nihilo creation mentioned below. Regarding living things, they are equivalent to immutable essences, beings or natures.
St. Augustine of Hippo - Unfinished book on the literal interpretation of Genesis
“…He (God) made and created all things that exist, insofar as they do exist. This means that every creature, whether intellectual or corporeal, - or to say it more briefly in the words themselves of the divine Scriptures: whether invisible or visible, - is not born of God but is made out of nothing by God” (1)
Code:
Literal interpretation of Genesis
“Woman’s nature was created; and although it was created from that of man which already existed, it was not created by some movement of natures already existing” (9,15,26)“ Nor is it a matter of indifference that the woman was not formed of the same clay from which Adam was made, but was made from the rib of Adam himself, so that we might know that the flesh of man and woman is of but one nature, and that there is but one source of the human race. Therefore at the beginning it is not two that are made, man and woman, nor two men, nor two women, but first man is made, and then woman from him. For God willed to settle one nature upon mankind, and starting from one origin of this creature, He snatched away the possibility of numerous and disparate natures” (10,48)
St. Peter of Alexandria - The soul
“God said, Let us make man according to our image and according to our likeness (1:26). It is clear from this that man was not formed by the conjunction of the body with some pre-existing type. For if the earth, at a command, brought forth the other animals endowed with life, how much more certain it is that the dust which God took from the earth received vital energy from the will and operation of God” (Fragment 1)
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony ‘et al’**
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continuation from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
Theodoret of Cyr - The Cure of Pagan Maladies
“The Creator of all is in need neither of instruments nor material. What material and instrument, and even time and effort, and ability and diligence are to other artisans, His will is to the God of the universe” (4)
St. Theophilus of Antioch - To Autolycus
« In the first place, [the prophets and the Sibyl] taught us as with one voice that He created everything out of that which did not exist » (2,10)
Lactantius - The Divine Institutions
« Let no one inquire of what materials God made those so great and wonderful works ; for He made all things out of nothing… » (2,8 {al. 9},8)
Aphraates the Persian Sage - Treatises
« In regard, then, to this resurrection of the dead, my beloved, I will instruct you as well as I can. For from the beginning God created Adam. From the dust He shaped Him and raised him up. And if, when Adam did not exist, He made him from nothing, how much easier will it now be for Him to raise him up ; for he has been sown like a seed in the earth » (8,6)
St. Athanasius - Treatise on the incarnation of the Word
« On the contrary, through His Word, God made all things which exist out of that which did not exist and out of what had no previous existence, as He said through Moses : In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth » (Gen. 1 :1)
« Indeed, God creates by calling into existence that which did not exist, requiring nothing in order to do it » (11)
St. Gregory I - Moral Teachings from Job
“For all things were created out of nothing, and their being would return again to nothing if the Author of all did not keep that being in His guiding hand (16,37,45)
St. Basil the Great – Hexaemeron
«…when I hear grass I think of grass, and in the same manner I understand everything as it is said, a plant, a fish, a wild animal, and an ox. Indeed, I am not ashamed of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16)…(Some) have attempted by false arguments and allegorical interpretations to bestow on the Scripture a dignity of their own imagining. But theirs is the attitude of one who considers himself wiser than the revelations of the Spirit and introduces his own ideas in pretence of an explanation. Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written» (9:1, pp. 135-36).
Theologians, convinced that evolution is a fact, and because a literal reading of the Genesis creation account clashes with today’s scientific hypotheses, dismiss the teaching of Genesis 1 as a symbol or allegory.
St. Ephraim the Syrian – Commentary on Genesis I
«No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names» (1, p. 282).
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
Theodoret of Cyr - The Cure of Pagan Maladies
“The Creator of all is in need neither of instruments nor material. What material and instrument, and even time and effort, and ability and diligence are to other artisans, His will is to the God of the universe” (4)
St. Theophilus of Antioch - To Autolycus
« In the first place, [the prophets and the Sibyl] taught us as with one voice that He created everything out of that which did not exist » (2,10)
Lactantius - The Divine Institutions
« Let no one inquire of what materials God made those so great and wonderful works ; for He made all things out of nothing… » (2,8 {al. 9},8)
Aphraates the Persian Sage - Treatises
« In regard, then, to this resurrection of the dead, my beloved, I will instruct you as well as I can. For from the beginning God created Adam. From the dust He shaped Him and raised him up. And if, when Adam did not exist, He made him from nothing, how much easier will it now be for Him to raise him up ; for he has been sown like a seed in the earth » (8,6)
St. Athanasius - Treatise on the incarnation of the Word
« On the contrary, through His Word, God made all things which exist out of that which did not exist and out of what had no previous existence, as He said through Moses : In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth » (Gen. 1 :1)
Code:
Letter concerning the decrees of the Council of NicaeaSt. Gregory I - Moral Teachings from Job
“For all things were created out of nothing, and their being would return again to nothing if the Author of all did not keep that being in His guiding hand (16,37,45)
St. Basil the Great – Hexaemeron
«…when I hear grass I think of grass, and in the same manner I understand everything as it is said, a plant, a fish, a wild animal, and an ox. Indeed, I am not ashamed of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16)…(Some) have attempted by false arguments and allegorical interpretations to bestow on the Scripture a dignity of their own imagining. But theirs is the attitude of one who considers himself wiser than the revelations of the Spirit and introduces his own ideas in pretence of an explanation. Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written» (9:1, pp. 135-36).
Theologians, convinced that evolution is a fact, and because a literal reading of the Genesis creation account clashes with today’s scientific hypotheses, dismiss the teaching of Genesis 1 as a symbol or allegory.
St. Ephraim the Syrian – Commentary on Genesis I
«No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names» (1, p. 282).
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continued from previojus post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
**Continuation of my previous post to [Neil_Anthony
St. John Chrysostom - Homilies on Genesis
«When you hear that God planted Paradise in Eden in the East, understand the word planted befittingly of God : that is, that He commanded; but concerning the words that follow, believe precisely that Paradise was created and in that very place where the Scripture has assigned it» (13:3, p. 106).
Another way of accommodating evolution, so clearly incompatible with the Genesis creation account, has been to reject Moses as its author. In the light of the Fathers’ writings, there is no doubt of their position. Chrysostom again:
«Let us see now what we are taught by the blessed Moses, who speaks not of himself but by the inspiration of the grace of the Spirit» (14:2, p. 110).
«All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He who called them (heaven and earth) out of nothing into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions» (2:2, p. 9).
«With great gratitude let us accept what is related (by Moses), not stepping out of our own limitations, and not testing what is above us as the enemies of the truth did when, wishing to comprehend everything with their minds, they did not realise that human nature cannot comprehend the creation of God» (ibid).
“Do you see how all things were created by a word? But let us see what it says afterwards about the creation of man: And God shaped man [Gen. 2:7]. See how, by means of a condescension of terms employed for the sake of weakness, it teaches at the same time both the manner of creation and its diversity or variety, so that, speaking in human terms, it indicates that man was shaped by the very hands of God, even as another Prophet says: Your hands created me and shaped me [Job 10:8] (ibid)
“Just as He said of the earth only: Let it bring forth, and there appeared a great variety of flowers, herbs, and seeds, and all occurred by His word alone, so here also He said: Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens – and instantly there were so many kinds of crawling things, such a variety of birds, that one cannot number them in words” (7:3, p.52)
Apart from the obligation to accept the teaching of Lateran IV on de nihilo creation, today’s theologians overlook the sanctity of the Fathers and their infused wisdom in interpreting Genesis.
Genesis is not a work of human wisdom; it is knowledge which comes directly from God (cf Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Fr Seraphim Rose [Orthodox monk] 1934 - 82)
St. Isaac the Syrian
«…knowledge (spiritual) bestowed by Divine power is called supra-natural; it is unfathomable and is higher than knowledge (perceptions of the visible); contemplation of this knowledge comes to the soul not from matter, which is outside it…It manifests and reveals itself in the innermost depths of the soul itself, immaterially, suddenly, spontaneously, and unexpectedly, since, according to the words of Christ, the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)» (Early Fathers from the Philokalia p. 196).
Contrary to the current belief that only training is needed to interpret Genesis, St. Isaac explains that the highest spiritual life is necessary for the soul to rise to a vision of the beginning of things. Fr. Rose mentioned above writes:
Moses made use of written records and oral tradition in recording the acts of historical Patriarchs; but an account of the beginning of the world’s existence, when there were no witnesses to God’s mighty acts, can come only from God’s revelation; it is a supra-natural knowledge revealed in direct contact with God. And this is exactly what the Fathers of the Church and Church tradition tell us the book of Genesis is.
Continued in next post**
**Continuation of my previous post to [Neil_Anthony
St. John Chrysostom - Homilies on Genesis
«When you hear that God planted Paradise in Eden in the East, understand the word planted befittingly of God : that is, that He commanded; but concerning the words that follow, believe precisely that Paradise was created and in that very place where the Scripture has assigned it» (13:3, p. 106).
Another way of accommodating evolution, so clearly incompatible with the Genesis creation account, has been to reject Moses as its author. In the light of the Fathers’ writings, there is no doubt of their position. Chrysostom again:
«Let us see now what we are taught by the blessed Moses, who speaks not of himself but by the inspiration of the grace of the Spirit» (14:2, p. 110).
«All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He who called them (heaven and earth) out of nothing into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions» (2:2, p. 9).
«With great gratitude let us accept what is related (by Moses), not stepping out of our own limitations, and not testing what is above us as the enemies of the truth did when, wishing to comprehend everything with their minds, they did not realise that human nature cannot comprehend the creation of God» (ibid).
“Do you see how all things were created by a word? But let us see what it says afterwards about the creation of man: And God shaped man [Gen. 2:7]. See how, by means of a condescension of terms employed for the sake of weakness, it teaches at the same time both the manner of creation and its diversity or variety, so that, speaking in human terms, it indicates that man was shaped by the very hands of God, even as another Prophet says: Your hands created me and shaped me [Job 10:8] (ibid)
Code:
Commentary on GenesisApart from the obligation to accept the teaching of Lateran IV on de nihilo creation, today’s theologians overlook the sanctity of the Fathers and their infused wisdom in interpreting Genesis.
Genesis is not a work of human wisdom; it is knowledge which comes directly from God (cf Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Fr Seraphim Rose [Orthodox monk] 1934 - 82)
St. Isaac the Syrian
«…knowledge (spiritual) bestowed by Divine power is called supra-natural; it is unfathomable and is higher than knowledge (perceptions of the visible); contemplation of this knowledge comes to the soul not from matter, which is outside it…It manifests and reveals itself in the innermost depths of the soul itself, immaterially, suddenly, spontaneously, and unexpectedly, since, according to the words of Christ, the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)» (Early Fathers from the Philokalia p. 196).
Contrary to the current belief that only training is needed to interpret Genesis, St. Isaac explains that the highest spiritual life is necessary for the soul to rise to a vision of the beginning of things. Fr. Rose mentioned above writes:
Moses made use of written records and oral tradition in recording the acts of historical Patriarchs; but an account of the beginning of the world’s existence, when there were no witnesses to God’s mighty acts, can come only from God’s revelation; it is a supra-natural knowledge revealed in direct contact with God. And this is exactly what the Fathers of the Church and Church tradition tell us the book of Genesis is.
Continued in next post**
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Ahimsa: Is the resurrection of Christ a miracle? Do you think that the resurrection of Christ can be explained by scientific means?
Is it a continuation of God’s “Evolving” universe?
Do you believe it happened?
Is it a continuation of God’s “Evolving” universe?
Do you believe it happened?
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continued from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
Theodoret of Cyr - The Cure of Pagan Maladies
“The Creator of all is in need neither of instruments nor material. What material and instrument, and even time and effort, and ability and diligence are to other artisans, His will is to the God of the universe” (4)
St. Theophilus of Antioch - To Autolycus
« In the first place, [the prophets and the Sibyl] taught us as with one voice that He created everything out of that which did not exist » (2,10)
Lactantius - The Divine Institutions
« Let no one inquire of what materials God made those so great and wonderful works ; for He made all things out of nothing… » (2,8 {al. 9},8)
Aphraates the Persian Sage - Treatises
« In regard, then, to this resurrection of the dead, my beloved, I will instruct you as well as I can. For from the beginning God created Adam. From the dust He shaped Him and raised him up. And if, when Adam did not exist, He made him from nothing, how much easier will it now be for Him to raise him up ; for he has been sown like a seed in the earth » (8,6)
St. Athanasius - Treatise on the incarnation of the Word
« On the contrary, through His Word, God made all things which exist out of that which did not exist and out of what had no previous existence, as He said through Moses : In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth » (Gen. 1 :1)
« Indeed, God creates by calling into existence that which did not exist, requiring nothing in order to do it » (11)
St. Gregory I - Moral Teachings from Job
“For all things were created out of nothing, and their being would return again to nothing if the Author of all did not keep that being in His guiding hand (16,37,45)
St. Basil the Great – Hexaemeron
«…when I hear grass I think of grass, and in the same manner I understand everything as it is said, a plant, a fish, a wild animal, and an ox. Indeed, I am not ashamed of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16)…(Some) have attempted by false arguments and allegorical interpretations to bestow on the Scripture a dignity of their own imagining. But theirs is the attitude of one who considers himself wiser than the revelations of the Spirit and introduces his own ideas in pretence of an explanation. Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written» (9:1, pp. 135-36).
Theologians, convinced that evolution is a fact, and because a literal reading of the Genesis creation account clashes with today’s scientific hypotheses, dismiss the teaching of Genesis 1 as a symbol or allegory.
St. Ephraim the Syrian – Commentary on Genesis I
«No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names» (1, p. 282).
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
Theodoret of Cyr - The Cure of Pagan Maladies
“The Creator of all is in need neither of instruments nor material. What material and instrument, and even time and effort, and ability and diligence are to other artisans, His will is to the God of the universe” (4)
St. Theophilus of Antioch - To Autolycus
« In the first place, [the prophets and the Sibyl] taught us as with one voice that He created everything out of that which did not exist » (2,10)
Lactantius - The Divine Institutions
« Let no one inquire of what materials God made those so great and wonderful works ; for He made all things out of nothing… » (2,8 {al. 9},8)
Aphraates the Persian Sage - Treatises
« In regard, then, to this resurrection of the dead, my beloved, I will instruct you as well as I can. For from the beginning God created Adam. From the dust He shaped Him and raised him up. And if, when Adam did not exist, He made him from nothing, how much easier will it now be for Him to raise him up ; for he has been sown like a seed in the earth » (8,6)
St. Athanasius - Treatise on the incarnation of the Word
« On the contrary, through His Word, God made all things which exist out of that which did not exist and out of what had no previous existence, as He said through Moses : In the beginning God made the heavens and the earth » (Gen. 1 :1)
Code:
Letter concerning the decrees of the Council of NicaeaSt. Gregory I - Moral Teachings from Job
“For all things were created out of nothing, and their being would return again to nothing if the Author of all did not keep that being in His guiding hand (16,37,45)
St. Basil the Great – Hexaemeron
«…when I hear grass I think of grass, and in the same manner I understand everything as it is said, a plant, a fish, a wild animal, and an ox. Indeed, I am not ashamed of the Gospel (Rom. 1:16)…(Some) have attempted by false arguments and allegorical interpretations to bestow on the Scripture a dignity of their own imagining. But theirs is the attitude of one who considers himself wiser than the revelations of the Spirit and introduces his own ideas in pretence of an explanation. Therefore, let it be understood as it has been written» (9:1, pp. 135-36).
Theologians, convinced that evolution is a fact, and because a literal reading of the Genesis creation account clashes with today’s scientific hypotheses, dismiss the teaching of Genesis 1 as a symbol or allegory.
St. Ephraim the Syrian – Commentary on Genesis I
«No one should think that the Creation of Six Days is an allegory; it is likewise impermissible to say that what seems, according to the account, to have been created in six days, was created in a single instant, and likewise that certain names presented in this account either signify nothing, or signify something else. On the contrary, we must know that just as the heaven and the earth which were created in the beginning are actually the heaven and earth and not something else understood under the names of heaven and earth, so also everything else that is spoken of as being created and brought into order after the creation of heaven and earth is not empty names, but the very essence of the created natures corresponds to the force of these names» (1, p. 282).
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continued from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al"
St. John Chrysostom - Homilies on Genesis
«When you hear that God planted Paradise in Eden in the East, understand the word planted befittingly of God : that is, that He commanded; but concerning the words that follow, believe precisely that Paradise was created and in that very place where the Scripture has assigned it» (13:3, p. 106).
Another way of accommodating evolution, so clearly incompatible with the Genesis creation account, has been to reject Moses as its author. In the light of the Fathers’ writings, there is no doubt of their position. Chrysostom again:
«Let us see now what we are taught by the blessed Moses, who speaks not of himself but by the inspiration of the grace of the Spirit» (14:2, p. 110).
«All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He who called them (heaven and earth) out of nothing into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions» (2:2, p. 9).
«With great gratitude let us accept what is related (by Moses), not stepping out of our own limitations, and not testing what is above us as the enemies of the truth did when, wishing to comprehend everything with their minds, they did not realise that human nature cannot comprehend the creation of God» (ibid).
“Do you see how all things were created by a word? But let us see what it says afterwards about the creation of man: And God shaped man [Gen. 2:7]. See how, by means of a condescension of terms employed for the sake of weakness, it teaches at the same time both the manner of creation and its diversity or variety, so that, speaking in human terms, it indicates that man was shaped by the very hands of God, even as another Prophet says: Your hands created me and shaped me [Job 10:8] (ibid)
Commentary on Genesis
“Just as He said of the earth only: Let it bring forth, and there appeared a great variety of flowers, herbs, and seeds, and all occurred by His word alone, so here also He said: Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens – and instantly there were so many kinds of crawling things, such a variety of birds, that one cannot number them in words” (7:3, p.52)
Apart from the obligation to accept the teaching of Lateran IV on de nihilo creation, today’s theologians overlook the sanctity of the Fathers and their infused wisdom in interpreting Genesis.
Genesis is not a work of human wisdom; it is knowledge which comes directly from God (cf Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Fr Seraphim Rose [Orthodox monk] 1934 - 82)
St. Isaac the Syrian
«…knowledge (spiritual) bestowed by Divine power is called supra-natural; it is unfathomable and is higher than knowledge (perceptions of the visible); contemplation of this knowledge comes to the soul not from matter, which is outside it…It manifests and reveals itself in the innermost depths of the soul itself, immaterially, suddenly, spontaneously, and unexpectedly, since, according to the words of Christ, the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)» (Early Fathers from the Philokalia p. 196).
Contrary to the current belief that only training is needed to interpret Genesis, St. Isaac explains that the highest spiritual life is necessary for the soul to rise to a vision of the beginning of things. Fr. Rose mentioned above writes:
Moses made use of written records and oral tradition in recording the acts of historical Patriarchs; but an account of the beginning of the world’s existence, when there were no witnesses to God’s mighty acts, can come only from God’s revelation; it is a supra-natural knowledge revealed in direct contact with God. And this is exactly what the Fathers of the Church and Church tradition tell us the book of Genesis is.
Continued in next post
St. John Chrysostom - Homilies on Genesis
«When you hear that God planted Paradise in Eden in the East, understand the word planted befittingly of God : that is, that He commanded; but concerning the words that follow, believe precisely that Paradise was created and in that very place where the Scripture has assigned it» (13:3, p. 106).
Another way of accommodating evolution, so clearly incompatible with the Genesis creation account, has been to reject Moses as its author. In the light of the Fathers’ writings, there is no doubt of their position. Chrysostom again:
«Let us see now what we are taught by the blessed Moses, who speaks not of himself but by the inspiration of the grace of the Spirit» (14:2, p. 110).
«All the other prophets spoke either of what was to occur after a long time or what was about to happen then; but he, the blessed (Moses), who lived many generations after (the creation of the world), was vouchsafed by the guidance of the right hand of the Most High to utter what had been done by the Lord before his own birth. It is for this reason that he begins to speak thus: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth, as if calling out to us all with a loud voice: it is not by the instruction of men that I say this; He who called them (heaven and earth) out of nothing into being - it is He Who has roused my tongue to relate of them. And therefore I entreat you, let us pay heed to these words as if we heard not Moses but the very Lord of the universe Who speaks through the tongue of Moses, and let us take leave for good of our own opinions» (2:2, p. 9).
«With great gratitude let us accept what is related (by Moses), not stepping out of our own limitations, and not testing what is above us as the enemies of the truth did when, wishing to comprehend everything with their minds, they did not realise that human nature cannot comprehend the creation of God» (ibid).
“Do you see how all things were created by a word? But let us see what it says afterwards about the creation of man: And God shaped man [Gen. 2:7]. See how, by means of a condescension of terms employed for the sake of weakness, it teaches at the same time both the manner of creation and its diversity or variety, so that, speaking in human terms, it indicates that man was shaped by the very hands of God, even as another Prophet says: Your hands created me and shaped me [Job 10:8] (ibid)
Commentary on Genesis
“Just as He said of the earth only: Let it bring forth, and there appeared a great variety of flowers, herbs, and seeds, and all occurred by His word alone, so here also He said: Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens – and instantly there were so many kinds of crawling things, such a variety of birds, that one cannot number them in words” (7:3, p.52)
Apart from the obligation to accept the teaching of Lateran IV on de nihilo creation, today’s theologians overlook the sanctity of the Fathers and their infused wisdom in interpreting Genesis.
Genesis is not a work of human wisdom; it is knowledge which comes directly from God (cf Genesis, Creation and Early Man, Fr Seraphim Rose [Orthodox monk] 1934 - 82)
St. Isaac the Syrian
«…knowledge (spiritual) bestowed by Divine power is called supra-natural; it is unfathomable and is higher than knowledge (perceptions of the visible); contemplation of this knowledge comes to the soul not from matter, which is outside it…It manifests and reveals itself in the innermost depths of the soul itself, immaterially, suddenly, spontaneously, and unexpectedly, since, according to the words of Christ, the Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)» (Early Fathers from the Philokalia p. 196).
Contrary to the current belief that only training is needed to interpret Genesis, St. Isaac explains that the highest spiritual life is necessary for the soul to rise to a vision of the beginning of things. Fr. Rose mentioned above writes:
Moses made use of written records and oral tradition in recording the acts of historical Patriarchs; but an account of the beginning of the world’s existence, when there were no witnesses to God’s mighty acts, can come only from God’s revelation; it is a supra-natural knowledge revealed in direct contact with God. And this is exactly what the Fathers of the Church and Church tradition tell us the book of Genesis is.
Continued in next post
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continued from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al"
St Ambrose - Hexaemeron
«Moses spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence…For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, not in the persuasive words of wisdom, not in philosophical fallacies, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power (1 Cor. 2:4) he has ventured to say as if he were of the Divine work: In the beginning God created heaven and earth» (1:2, pp. 6-7).
St. Basil - Hexaemeron
«This man (Moses), who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, reports to us things which he heard from God» (1:1, p. 4).
Cosmogonists today speculate on the origin of the universe in terms of natural physical laws. The Church Fathers make it clear all laws including gravity and light did not exist until after the world was created. The physical laws were created to govern what had been brought into existence. God did not need them to create. The Six Days (the period of creation) are beyond scientific observation and measurement, and are different in kind from what science measures (cf. St Symeon). He created all things by his own omnipotence. He had no need of secondary productive causes. The big bang and other evolutionary models of origins are therefore of academic interest only, since they depend upon the existence of physical laws and processes which were not present during the creation period. For instance, the light seen from earth was created at the same time as the star from which it came. The law governing the speed of light was introduced after the creation period was finished.
St. Bonaventure - Breviloquium
“…creation out of nothingness implies, on the part of the creature, a state of being subsequent upon a state of non-being, and, on the part of the Principle, a boundless productive power, which is found in God alone: necessarily, then, the universe must be created in time by this same boundless power acting in itself and without intermediary”
« The entire fabric of the universe was brought into existence in time and out of nothingness, by one first Principle…»
« The utterly perfect Principle from Whom flows the perfection of all things must act by His own power and law, and for Himself as an end; for in His action He needs none but Himself»
Chrysostom writes:
« What does it mean that first there is heaven, and then earth, first the roof and then the foundation? God is not subject to natural necessity; He is not subject to the laws of art. The will of God is the creator and artificer of nature and of art and of everything existing» (Eight Homilies on Genesis 1:3, pp. 731-32).
The Fathers emphasise that all things were made in their total substance by God from his thought, not by a process of one stage contributing to succeeding stages until the thing was complete. When He created the heavens and the earth on the first day they were beautified or adorned with plants, trees, the solar systems and the stars on subsequent days. Each addition was brought from non-existence in all its parts by thought alone.
St. John Damascene - The Source of Knowledge
“He (God) shaped the universe, both the invisible and the visible, and brought it into existence out of the non-existent; and man He combined from the visible and the invisible. He creates by taking thought, and it is thought that is the basis of the work; by the Word He carries it out, and by the Spirit he perfects it” (3,2,2)
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
St Ambrose - Hexaemeron
«Moses spoke to God the Most High, not in a vision nor in dreams, but mouth to mouth (Numbers 12:6-8). Plainly and clearly, not by figures nor by riddles, there was bestowed on him the gift of the Divine presence…For, if he had already accepted from God what he should say concerning the liberation of the people, how much more should you accept what He should say concerning heaven? Therefore, not in the persuasive words of wisdom, not in philosophical fallacies, but in the demonstration of the Spirit and power (1 Cor. 2:4) he has ventured to say as if he were of the Divine work: In the beginning God created heaven and earth» (1:2, pp. 6-7).
St. Basil - Hexaemeron
«This man (Moses), who is made equal to the angels, being considered worthy of the sight of God face to face, reports to us things which he heard from God» (1:1, p. 4).
Cosmogonists today speculate on the origin of the universe in terms of natural physical laws. The Church Fathers make it clear all laws including gravity and light did not exist until after the world was created. The physical laws were created to govern what had been brought into existence. God did not need them to create. The Six Days (the period of creation) are beyond scientific observation and measurement, and are different in kind from what science measures (cf. St Symeon). He created all things by his own omnipotence. He had no need of secondary productive causes. The big bang and other evolutionary models of origins are therefore of academic interest only, since they depend upon the existence of physical laws and processes which were not present during the creation period. For instance, the light seen from earth was created at the same time as the star from which it came. The law governing the speed of light was introduced after the creation period was finished.
St. Bonaventure - Breviloquium
“…creation out of nothingness implies, on the part of the creature, a state of being subsequent upon a state of non-being, and, on the part of the Principle, a boundless productive power, which is found in God alone: necessarily, then, the universe must be created in time by this same boundless power acting in itself and without intermediary”
« The entire fabric of the universe was brought into existence in time and out of nothingness, by one first Principle…»
« The utterly perfect Principle from Whom flows the perfection of all things must act by His own power and law, and for Himself as an end; for in His action He needs none but Himself»
Chrysostom writes:
« What does it mean that first there is heaven, and then earth, first the roof and then the foundation? God is not subject to natural necessity; He is not subject to the laws of art. The will of God is the creator and artificer of nature and of art and of everything existing» (Eight Homilies on Genesis 1:3, pp. 731-32).
The Fathers emphasise that all things were made in their total substance by God from his thought, not by a process of one stage contributing to succeeding stages until the thing was complete. When He created the heavens and the earth on the first day they were beautified or adorned with plants, trees, the solar systems and the stars on subsequent days. Each addition was brought from non-existence in all its parts by thought alone.
St. John Damascene - The Source of Knowledge
“He (God) shaped the universe, both the invisible and the visible, and brought it into existence out of the non-existent; and man He combined from the visible and the invisible. He creates by taking thought, and it is thought that is the basis of the work; by the Word He carries it out, and by the Spirit he perfects it” (3,2,2)
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Ahimsa: Is the resurrection of Christ a miracle? Do you think that the resurrection of Christ can be explained by scientific means?
Is it a continuation of God’s “Evolving” universe?
Do you believe it happened?
Neil Anthony: yes Enoch being taken by God to heaven seems miraculous to me.
Does the evolution only crowd believe that an actual man named Enoch existed? Wouldn’t they say that that was just allegorical, too?
When does the evolution only crowd who claim to be Catholic believe that Genesis starts relating actual historical events?
They never answer that question!
That’s why I don’t believe that they believe!
Peter Wilders: whether or not creation was created in 6-literal days many of the early church fathers certainly believe that some of the events of Genesis did really historically happen!
But don’t waste your time pointing that out to the evolution only crowd–they always run away from actual historical miraculous events in the bible–they don’t really have the Catholic faith–don’t waste your time!
And for every one out there just remember that it is not impossible to believe in evolution–a universe billions of years old–Adam and Eve as the first homo sapiens–and that some of the event of genesis did Literally , historical,y and actually happened!
The evolutionist only crowd and the 6-day literal creation 6,000 years ago only crowd never get that!
God can walk and chew gum at the same time! The evolutionists only and the 6-day literal creationists only are never able to accomplish that fete!
Is it a continuation of God’s “Evolving” universe?
Do you believe it happened?
Neil Anthony: yes Enoch being taken by God to heaven seems miraculous to me.
Does the evolution only crowd believe that an actual man named Enoch existed? Wouldn’t they say that that was just allegorical, too?
When does the evolution only crowd who claim to be Catholic believe that Genesis starts relating actual historical events?
They never answer that question!
That’s why I don’t believe that they believe!
Peter Wilders: whether or not creation was created in 6-literal days many of the early church fathers certainly believe that some of the events of Genesis did really historically happen!
But don’t waste your time pointing that out to the evolution only crowd–they always run away from actual historical miraculous events in the bible–they don’t really have the Catholic faith–don’t waste your time!
And for every one out there just remember that it is not impossible to believe in evolution–a universe billions of years old–Adam and Eve as the first homo sapiens–and that some of the event of genesis did Literally , historical,y and actually happened!
The evolutionist only crowd and the 6-day literal creation 6,000 years ago only crowd never get that!
God can walk and chew gum at the same time! The evolutionists only and the 6-day literal creationists only are never able to accomplish that fete!
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continued from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al"
According to St. Basil the Great in his Haexameron :
«Someone may, perhaps, ask this: Why does the Scripture reduce to a command of the Creator that tendency to flow downward which belongs naturally to water…If water has this tendency by nature, the command ordering the waters to be gathered together into one place would be superfluous…To this enquiry we say this, that you recognised very well the movements of the water after the command of the Lord, both that it is unsteady and unstable and that it is borne naturally down slopes and into hollows; but how it had any power previous to that, before the motion was engendered in it from this command, you yourself neither know nor have you heard it from one who knew. Reflect that the voice of God makes nature, and the command given at that time to creation provided the future course of action for the creatures» (4:2, pp. 56-57).
The spiritual and metaphysical understanding of creation by the Fathers has been rejected in favour of a naturalistic approach. To modern exegetes, influenced by the speculations of secular science, the inspired teachings of St. Chrysostom and the other Fathers, are dismissed as unscientific. For instance, when the former speaks of the fifth day of creation:
«Today God goes over to the waters and shows us that from them, by His word and command, there proceeded animate creatures…What mind, tell me, can understand this miracle?» (Homilies on Genesis 7:3, p.52).
Clearly not those who prefer a naturalistic explanation. One wonders how these same theologians reconcile themselves with the miracle of transubstantiation.
What must be irritating to most of them is the insistence of the Church Fathers upon instantaneous creation of things in their whole substance (Vatican I, canon 5), when today’s theologians allow slow development over millions of years. Regarding the First Day of creation St. Ephraim writes:
«Although both the light and the clouds were created in the twinkling of an eye, still both the day and the night of the First Day continued for twelve hours each» (Commentary on Genesis 1, p. 287).
St Basil, regarding the Third Day of God’s creation, wrote:
« At this saying all the dense woods appeared; all the trees shot up…Likewise, all the shrubs were immediately thick with leaf and bushy; and the so-called garden plants…all came into existence in a moment of time, although they were not previously upon the earth (Hexaemeran 5-6, p. 74). Let the earth bring forth. This brief command was immediately a mighty nature and an elaborate system which brought to perfection more swiftly than our thought the countless properties of plants» ( Ibid. 5-10, p. 82).
And the Fifth Day:
“All water was in eager haste to fulfill the command of its Creator, and the great and ineffable power of God immediately produced an efficacious and active life in creatures of which one would not even be able to enumerate the species, as soon as the capacity for propagating living creatures came to the waters through His command” (St. Basil, Hexaemeron 7:1, p.105)
St. Ambrose of Milan - Hexaemeron
“At this command the waters immediately poured forth their offspring. The rivers were in labor. The lakes produced their quota of life. The sea itself began to bear all manner of reptiles…We are unable to record the multiplicity of the names of all those species which by Divine command were brought to life in a moment of time. At the same instant substantial form and the principle of life were brought into existence…The whale, as well as the frog, came into existence at the same time by the same creative power (5:1, 2, pp. 160-62)
«He (Moses) did not look forward to a late and leisurely creation of the word out of a concourse of atoms» (1:2, pp. 5, 7).
«And fittingly (Moses) added: He created, lest it be thought there was a delay in creation. Furthermore, men would see also how incomparable the Creator was Who completed such a work in the briefest moment of His creative act, so much so that the effect of His will anticipated the perception of time» (Ibid., 1:5, p.8).
The Church Fathers were unanimous in asserting God creates immediately and instantaneously, that it is His word which produces all things and is not the property of the waters or earth to bring forth life. Speaking about the Sixth Day St Basil states:
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
According to St. Basil the Great in his Haexameron :
«Someone may, perhaps, ask this: Why does the Scripture reduce to a command of the Creator that tendency to flow downward which belongs naturally to water…If water has this tendency by nature, the command ordering the waters to be gathered together into one place would be superfluous…To this enquiry we say this, that you recognised very well the movements of the water after the command of the Lord, both that it is unsteady and unstable and that it is borne naturally down slopes and into hollows; but how it had any power previous to that, before the motion was engendered in it from this command, you yourself neither know nor have you heard it from one who knew. Reflect that the voice of God makes nature, and the command given at that time to creation provided the future course of action for the creatures» (4:2, pp. 56-57).
The spiritual and metaphysical understanding of creation by the Fathers has been rejected in favour of a naturalistic approach. To modern exegetes, influenced by the speculations of secular science, the inspired teachings of St. Chrysostom and the other Fathers, are dismissed as unscientific. For instance, when the former speaks of the fifth day of creation:
«Today God goes over to the waters and shows us that from them, by His word and command, there proceeded animate creatures…What mind, tell me, can understand this miracle?» (Homilies on Genesis 7:3, p.52).
Clearly not those who prefer a naturalistic explanation. One wonders how these same theologians reconcile themselves with the miracle of transubstantiation.
What must be irritating to most of them is the insistence of the Church Fathers upon instantaneous creation of things in their whole substance (Vatican I, canon 5), when today’s theologians allow slow development over millions of years. Regarding the First Day of creation St. Ephraim writes:
«Although both the light and the clouds were created in the twinkling of an eye, still both the day and the night of the First Day continued for twelve hours each» (Commentary on Genesis 1, p. 287).
St Basil, regarding the Third Day of God’s creation, wrote:
« At this saying all the dense woods appeared; all the trees shot up…Likewise, all the shrubs were immediately thick with leaf and bushy; and the so-called garden plants…all came into existence in a moment of time, although they were not previously upon the earth (Hexaemeran 5-6, p. 74). Let the earth bring forth. This brief command was immediately a mighty nature and an elaborate system which brought to perfection more swiftly than our thought the countless properties of plants» ( Ibid. 5-10, p. 82).
And the Fifth Day:
“All water was in eager haste to fulfill the command of its Creator, and the great and ineffable power of God immediately produced an efficacious and active life in creatures of which one would not even be able to enumerate the species, as soon as the capacity for propagating living creatures came to the waters through His command” (St. Basil, Hexaemeron 7:1, p.105)
St. Ambrose of Milan - Hexaemeron
“At this command the waters immediately poured forth their offspring. The rivers were in labor. The lakes produced their quota of life. The sea itself began to bear all manner of reptiles…We are unable to record the multiplicity of the names of all those species which by Divine command were brought to life in a moment of time. At the same instant substantial form and the principle of life were brought into existence…The whale, as well as the frog, came into existence at the same time by the same creative power (5:1, 2, pp. 160-62)
«He (Moses) did not look forward to a late and leisurely creation of the word out of a concourse of atoms» (1:2, pp. 5, 7).
«And fittingly (Moses) added: He created, lest it be thought there was a delay in creation. Furthermore, men would see also how incomparable the Creator was Who completed such a work in the briefest moment of His creative act, so much so that the effect of His will anticipated the perception of time» (Ibid., 1:5, p.8).
The Church Fathers were unanimous in asserting God creates immediately and instantaneously, that it is His word which produces all things and is not the property of the waters or earth to bring forth life. Speaking about the Sixth Day St Basil states:
Continued in next post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
The evolutionist crowd only thinks that all the people that Peter Wilders is citing are deluded and that nothing in Genesis can be taken literally.
Is it reasonable to think that the Bible which in many cases can be proven to record actual historical literal events relates Nothing that actually historically happened in the Genesis account?
Does that sound reasonable? Does it sound Catholic?
Does an either/or mentality on evolution only sound reasonable?
Is it reasonable to think that the Bible which in many cases can be proven to record actual historical literal events relates Nothing that actually historically happened in the Genesis account?
Does that sound reasonable? Does it sound Catholic?
Does an either/or mentality on evolution only sound reasonable?
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
Hi Jerry Jet,
I think that Genesis contains many different stories that were combined together in writing after existing separately and being passed from generation to generation as either oral tradition or in some cases oral tradition that was later written down. So parts of it are sacred myths, parts of it are legends based on facts, parts of it are fictional stories re-told with a religious message, and parts of it are history.
I’m not 100% sure if the verses about Enoch are accurate but they are probably based on some historical event, otherwise where would they have originated?
Neil
P
Peter_Wilders
Guest
Continuation from previous post to Neil_Anthony 'et al’
“When He said: Let it bring forth, (the earth) did not produce what was stored up in it, but He Who gave the command also bestowed upon it the power to bring forth. Neither did the earth, when it heard Let it bring forth vegetation and the fruit trees, produce plants which it had hidden in it; nor did it send up to the surface the palm or the oak or the cypress which had been hidden somewhere down below its womb. On the contrary, it is the Divine Word that is the origin of all things made. Let the earth bring forth; not let it put forth, let it acquire what it does not have, since God is enduing it with the power of active force” ( Hexaemeron 8:1, p.117)
“God orders the firstlings of each kind to be brought forth…” (Hexaemeron 7:2, p.107)
There was no doubt amongst the Church Fathers that the things created on each of the «Six Days» were created instantaneously…
St. Athanasius the Great - Four Discourses against the Arians
«As to the separate stars or the great lights, not this appeared first, and that second, but in one day and by the same command, they were all called into being. And such was the original formation of the quadrupeds, and of birds, and fishes, and cattle and plants…No one creature was made before another, but all things originally subsisted at once together upon one and the same command»
This insistence by the Fathers on instantaneous creation in traditional creation theology is the key to understanding the dogmatic «de fide» teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) on creation ex nihilo:
« (God) creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body» (Dg. 800)
In canon 5 of Vatican I (1869-70) the words whole substance (i.e. both as to matter as well as to form) were mentioned, which adds even more to its clarity :
«If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing - let him be anathema».
The magisterial statements of the Lateran and Vatican Councils, encapsulate the creation theology of the early Fathers. All things were created from nothing at the beginning of time, i.e. the «Six Days», solely by the omnipotent power of God. Time began when God created the heavens and the earth on the first day. Every day for six days new things were made to beautify what had been created on the first day. The flora and fauna embellished the earth; the sun moon and stars gave it light by day or by night.
It is almost inexplicable how cosmogonic theories, such as the big bang, totally opposed to this traditional and ‘de fide’ teaching on origins, can be considered seriously by so many Catholic exegetes today. Not only is it believed, but is taught in schools and seminaries to students, confirming what they learn in their natural history classes, that the origin of « the heaven and the earth » and all the Genesis kinds can be explained by scientific processes. In consequence, one of the principal tenets of Catholic teaching, the de nihilo dogma that all things in their entire substance were created by God alone at the beginning, has been abandoned. The revelatory mystery of origins is replaced in people’s minds by the philosophy of naturalism, which fuels the materialism in today’s society.
Cardinal Ratzinger said in Vienna in May, 1988 that one of the reasons for the crisis of faith was that the traditional theology of creation had been dropped from the theological manuals together with the metaphysics that accompanied it. The crisis continues, as does the rejection of the theology underpinning the Church’s major doctrine on creation. In consequence, there is little to defend the Church against the flight to materialism. Needless to say, the faith, practiced by many of those remaining in the Church, no longer fully corresponds to that transmitted by the Fathers.
Peter
“When He said: Let it bring forth, (the earth) did not produce what was stored up in it, but He Who gave the command also bestowed upon it the power to bring forth. Neither did the earth, when it heard Let it bring forth vegetation and the fruit trees, produce plants which it had hidden in it; nor did it send up to the surface the palm or the oak or the cypress which had been hidden somewhere down below its womb. On the contrary, it is the Divine Word that is the origin of all things made. Let the earth bring forth; not let it put forth, let it acquire what it does not have, since God is enduing it with the power of active force” ( Hexaemeron 8:1, p.117)
“God orders the firstlings of each kind to be brought forth…” (Hexaemeron 7:2, p.107)
There was no doubt amongst the Church Fathers that the things created on each of the «Six Days» were created instantaneously…
St. Athanasius the Great - Four Discourses against the Arians
«As to the separate stars or the great lights, not this appeared first, and that second, but in one day and by the same command, they were all called into being. And such was the original formation of the quadrupeds, and of birds, and fishes, and cattle and plants…No one creature was made before another, but all things originally subsisted at once together upon one and the same command»
This insistence by the Fathers on instantaneous creation in traditional creation theology is the key to understanding the dogmatic «de fide» teaching of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) on creation ex nihilo:
« (God) creator of all visible and invisible things, of the spiritual and of the corporal; who by His own omnipotent power at once from the beginning of time created each creature from nothing, spiritual and corporal, namely, angelic and mundane, and finally the human, constituted as it were, alike of the spirit and the body» (Dg. 800)
In canon 5 of Vatican I (1869-70) the words whole substance (i.e. both as to matter as well as to form) were mentioned, which adds even more to its clarity :
«If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing - let him be anathema».
The magisterial statements of the Lateran and Vatican Councils, encapsulate the creation theology of the early Fathers. All things were created from nothing at the beginning of time, i.e. the «Six Days», solely by the omnipotent power of God. Time began when God created the heavens and the earth on the first day. Every day for six days new things were made to beautify what had been created on the first day. The flora and fauna embellished the earth; the sun moon and stars gave it light by day or by night.
It is almost inexplicable how cosmogonic theories, such as the big bang, totally opposed to this traditional and ‘de fide’ teaching on origins, can be considered seriously by so many Catholic exegetes today. Not only is it believed, but is taught in schools and seminaries to students, confirming what they learn in their natural history classes, that the origin of « the heaven and the earth » and all the Genesis kinds can be explained by scientific processes. In consequence, one of the principal tenets of Catholic teaching, the de nihilo dogma that all things in their entire substance were created by God alone at the beginning, has been abandoned. The revelatory mystery of origins is replaced in people’s minds by the philosophy of naturalism, which fuels the materialism in today’s society.
Cardinal Ratzinger said in Vienna in May, 1988 that one of the reasons for the crisis of faith was that the traditional theology of creation had been dropped from the theological manuals together with the metaphysics that accompanied it. The crisis continues, as does the rejection of the theology underpinning the Church’s major doctrine on creation. In consequence, there is little to defend the Church against the flight to materialism. Needless to say, the faith, practiced by many of those remaining in the Church, no longer fully corresponds to that transmitted by the Fathers.
Peter
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
Hi Peter,
You have all these quotes showing that the Fathers took Genesis literally. But they’re selective quotes. Just as an example you quoted this from Augustine…
You have all these quotes showing that the Fathers took Genesis literally. But they’re selective quotes. Just as an example you quoted this from Augustine…
But that’s a selective quote, because we know Augustine taught that the days in Genesis weren’t literal days as we think of them today:
S
SpiritMeadow
Guest
Can you tell me why you and some others continue to try to frame all your questions as if people who believe in evolution (the vast majority) think that “everything happened naturally?” I’ve seen like maybe 2 people who claim they are not Christian. Everyone else here agrees that God was very much the Creator and that evolution is a direct result of his creation. Please keep to facts and not personal opinion.Hi Jerry,
You inspired me to create a poll:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=204160
Of course, the people who think everything happened naturally and can be explained by science will object to the poll and refuse to answer.
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
I can only speak for myself. I created the poll so that people such as yourself would actually come out and say “yes, I believe there are miracles”. I don’t understand why you hesitate so much to just say it…
… and then actually name a miracle that you believe in. Like the physical resurrection of Jesus. As someone who accepts evolution, I want to show that I’m not in the company of a bunch of miracle-denying rationalists.- Status