Thank you for you time everyone

[mumof5]

kamz:

momof 5, I’m just wondering…c’mon, what did you think we were going to say to you???

Well, maybe part of me did want to hear the other side. Fact is, I would have loved to have been able to talk this over with a Catholic friend or two but aren’t able to do so. And as I said, it has been helpful.

Now I must leave the boards as I need to go out.

As far as Alan’s comment, it sums up my feelings perfectly only I couldn’t say it so well. I could go to Mass and recite it all…but that would make me a hypocrite because I don’t agree with all the doctrines and it makes me feel two faced. I am not a two-faced person. If I was, I wouldn’t have a problem simply going to Mass.

 

[kamz]

mumof5:

Well, maybe part of me did want to hear the other side. Fact is, I would have loved to have been able to talk this over with a Catholic friend or two but aren’t able to do so. And as I said, it has been helpful.

Now I must leave the boards as I need to go out.

As far as Alan’s comment, it sums up my feelings perfectly only I couldn’t say it so well. I could go to Mass and recite it all…but that would make me a hypocrite because I don’t agree with all the doctrines and it makes me feel two faced. I am not a two-faced person. If I was, I wouldn’t have a problem simply going to Mass.

that is very sad, the fact is as a Catholic you know the Catholic church is the church that Jesus established and you still choose to walk away because you don’t feel like it is giving you enough…well, I was once where you were too and when I said “I’m going to stick this out” the world opened up for me and I saw all the wonderful fullness of the Catholic church and I can’t believe I ever left…basically it was walking away from God and I’m sorry you feel you have to do that, in my opinion you are just like the prodigal son but he was welcomed home by his father and you will be welcomed back home too because anything else is just a shadow of the True church and some day you will come to know that, sometimes you have to leave like I did to see what your missing and then when you come back you won’t be able to get enough.

 

[estesbob]

mumof5:

As far as Alan’s comment, it sums up my feelings perfectly only I couldn’t say it so well. I could go to Mass and recite it all…but that would make me a hypocrite because I don’t agree with all the doctrines and it makes me feel two faced. I am not a two-faced person. If I was, I wouldn’t have a problem simply going to Mass.

You have said repeatedly that you dont agree with all the doctrines but have never told us which of the doctrines you have a problem with. Thats what makes me wonder if you really are wanting to look at both sides or our just using this forum to rationalize to yourslef your leaving.

If nothing else you are leaving the ability to recieve our lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Now if that is a doctrine you have a problem with I would think you’ll have a bigger problem discounting this if you truly get into Scripture Study.

 

[Nicene]

For this time, I choose to stay in the Church because I believe she is the “mother ship” of Christianity as it were, and her problems no longer trouble me – in fact I believe it is my vocation to challenge and goad others in the Church to let go of their attitudes toward each other and yes, their legalism. There have been times I was ready to leave the Church, but what I found is that as I grow and learn to use the fruits of the spirit, people quit being jerks to me and I am empowered to make a difference again. If I look at it like a dysfunctional family, then I’d rather try to fix her problems than try to flee them.

This is precisely what protects the church and has for 2000 years. When the laity has been in danger through their behavior, the magisterium has held fast and steered the course. When the magisterium has been in danger through her behavior, God chooses those in the church to lead the way: St. Francis, St. Thomas, St. Dominic, St. Therese, St. Ignatius etc. Schism is a sin, not a perogative. Trust God to know what’s best, his promise is always good. In the darkest moments of the church, God chose someone, or someones to protect it through the Holy Spirit.

The first step to being Holy is choosing to be so. True strength is in humble submission to Gods will for his church. You may be the one or ones called.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[mumof5]

estesbob:

You have said repeatedly that you dont agree with all the doctrines but have never told us which of the doctrines you have a problem with. Thats what makes me wonder if you really are wanting to look at both sides or our just using this forum to rationalize to yourslef your leaving.

OK - 1/ Confession - already mentioned this. Yes, the apostles were given the power to forgive sin but it was never said that this was the only way. The Bible says we have ONE mediator with God and that is his son, Jesus. Not a priest.

2/ Purgatory. Introduced by the church to raise money so people would buy indulgences. Not backed up in any scripture.

There’s just two. It’s Sunday afternoon here now and I spoke with the Pastor who has agreed to baptise me. He will call me with a date this week. Thank you Lord.

Might I just add that this represents a major shift away from “Ok, I’m going to be a Christian this is how I’m going to do it” to " OK, I’m going to give my life to you, please lead me".

 

[Bella3502]

Mickey:

You have free-will and so nobody can force you to stay in the Catholic Church. But please do not insult the other Catholics on this forum with comments such as these–it is uncharitable.

May God bless you on your journey.

I have been reading the posts on this threads and there are more “insulting” posts directed towards Mumof5 than anything else.

Everyones spiritual journey is not the same.

 

[mumof5]

Bella3502:

Everyones spiritual journey is not the same.

Exactly Be that the Catholic church or otherwise.

 

[Eden]

There’s just two. It’s Sunday afternoon here now and I spoke with the Pastor who has agreed to baptise me. He will call me with a date this week. Thank you Lord.

I’m sure half the fun of being baptised in a Protestant church will come from being able to come back to catholic.com and tell all the Catholics about it.

2/ Purgatory. Introduced by the church to raise money so people would buy indulgences. Not backed up in any scripture.

I just want to clarify for any non-Catholics who may be misled by mum’s misinterpretation of Indulgences:

One never could “buy” indulgences. The abuses by several members of clergy that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms-indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence.

The clergy members who were abusing Indulgences led some to believe when they gave alms, that they were buying their way out of purgatory.

I would suggest researching Indulgences from Catholic sources to get an accurate understanding. Indulgences are closely related to Penance:

catholic.com/library/primer_on_indulgences.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9411fea1sb1.asp

Enchiridion of Indulgences 1968:

holysoulscrusade.org/indulgences.html

Indulgences granted for World Day for the Sick:

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42229

And World Youth Day 2005:

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=38916

 

[Eden]

Again, to clarify for non-Catholics who may be misled, Purgatory in the Bible:

**A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness **

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

www.scripturecatholic.com

 

[Eden]

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

 

[Eden]

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

 

[Milliardo]

mumof5:

The Bible says we have ONE mediator with God and that is his son, Jesus. Not a priest.

Jesus’ one mediationship is not detracted when you confess to a priest. Protestants pray for one another as well; does this somehow take away from Christ’s one mediationship?

2/ Purgatory. Introduced by the church to raise money so people would buy indulgences. Not backed up in any scripture.

This is actually a very distorted view of what Purgatory is. May I suggest that you read Scott Hahn’s take on Purgatory then? star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m4/pg.html He shows there how much Scriptural Purgatory is. Do you like C.S. Lewis? He very much believed in Purgatory as well.

 

[Mike_O]

mumof5:

OK - 1/ Confession - already mentioned this. Yes, the apostles were given the power to forgive sin but it was never said that this was the only way. The Bible says we have ONE mediator with God and that is his son, Jesus. Not a priest.

2/ Purgatory. Introduced by the church to raise money so people would buy indulgences. Not backed up in any scripture.

There’s just two.

If this is quite literally your understanding of Confession and Purgatory, you can claim only the grossest misunderstanding of the faith you profess to know enough about to leave.

Two of your alleged “theological disagreements” are nonsense. Where are the others? Have you considered opening the Catechism?

It’s Sunday afternoon here now and I spoke with the Pastor who has agreed to baptise me. He will call me with a date this week. Thank you Lord.

If you have already been baptized as a Catholic, you cannot be “re-baptized.” Christian baptism is something in common between even Catholics and Protestants. To seek baptism again suggests that you consider the first to be somehow insufficient. I don’t think you need to be told that casting aspersions on the validity of the Holy Sacrament of baptism is a rather grave offense.

Further, saying “thank you Lord” for your unilateral decision to leave the truth seems misplaced; what leads you to believe that the Lord is encouraging you to embrace Protestantism?

Is your own sensation of emotional well-being or the self-actualization of your own spiritual desires evidence enough for you to believe that the Lord is somehow calling you to this? Have you heard a voice directly from God telling you to do this? Else, how can you claim that the Lord wills you to do this?

 

[Mike_D30]

Fredricks:

The premise was that Sola Scripture failed.

We believe that scripture is the final authority. I have not ignored anything.

How can you not believe in the Real Presence, if scripture is your final authority? Christ is very clear in John Chapter 6, and there is no way you can say it is figurative without doing enormous mental gymnastics.

 

[Mike_D30]

jim1130:

Peace.

That is a very interesting statement. What is it about Catholics that make them so hateful toward Catholicism if they leave? Is it because they have received a large dose of Catholic misinformation from non-Catholics and feel duped by the Catholic Church? That the Catholic Church, somehow, lied to them? Is it because they want to rationalize their reasons for leaving? Did they feel controlled and manipulated by the Catholic Church?

Peace.

There’s plenty of ex-Evangelicals who are now athesists that do the same thing, can we stop with the generalizations?

 

[Mike_D30]

I think a real way to show just how much of a failure Sola Scriptura is, is this example.

I’ve heard Mormon apologists wipe the floor with Protestant apologists, and use Bible verse and passages to back up everyone of their heretical beliefs.

 

[Mike_D30]

Fredricks:

Why should I care about Luther? If it had not been Luther, it would have been hundreds of others, Luther was wrong about so many things why should I care what he thought? Catholicism failed because it could not stand up to the scrutiny.

When did the Church fail? The Catholic Church is still well over 1 billion strong. Protestantism failed, there’s essentially no doctrine where you all can agree as to which one is right. Baptism necessary/not necessary, once saved always saved/ you can lose salvation, rapture dispensationalists, saved by faith/ saved by faith &works, consubstantiation/ simply bread and grape juice either way it all goes in the trash can. There’s no authority, and there’s no congruance amonsts Protestants. Like I said, I’ve heard Mormon apologists wipe the floor with Protestant apologists, using the BIBLE to substantiate every one of thier beliefs.

 

[Mike_D30]

mumof5:

For those who think this is the easy choice - it isn’t. I know several people who will stop having anything to do with me when I make this move. And Ihave been attending this church for a while. Then again, I probably won’t notice. Anyone who does that isn’t a real friend anyway. And I suppose at least if I give them something concrete to hit me over the head with I can shrug and give it to them since I’m pretty used to being told how I should have been at this rosary service, etc anyway.

How do you go from saying you’re leaving the Church because no one would know or care if you were even there, and you see nothing but empty faces. But yet you say people will be mad when you leave, and will wonder why you weren’t at the rosary service etc… I don’t know it doesn’t jive, you sound like you really really need to justify this decision to yourself.

Good luck with your decision, I agree that you’ll be back.

God Bless

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Dear Mother of 5,

I cannot express my admiration for you at this time, because I have become increasing anxious about the need for fortitude that I foresee being thrust upon Catholics now and in the near future.

This particularly distresses me at Easter Vigils as I see new entrants. Last year in my parish it was 15; this year there will be 23. I am quite convinced that many of the hundreds of thousands that have joined the Church in each of the past few years have absolutely no idea of the price entailed in following the Church that Jesus Christ instituted. .

I am certain that many of them will not be up to the demands of what it means to be Catholic in an increasingly secular, materialistic world and a sex-soaked United States. Our lives have been the easiest of any society in the history of the world, and those many denominations that offer easy salvation would, I believe, be far more comfortable for many people.

Congratulations on recognizing your capabilities and shortcomings, and taking appropriate measures at this time.



Anna

 

[estesbob]

mumof5:

OK - 1/ Confession - already mentioned this. Yes, the apostles were given the power to forgive sin but it was never said that this was the only way. The Bible says we have ONE mediator with God and that is his son, Jesus. Not a priest.

So you are moving to a Church that does not believe in Scripture??? Confession was instituted by Jesus himself. Is it the doctrine you question or the fear of having to acutally verbalize your sins to a man representing your Faith Community?

2/ Purgatory. Introduced by the church to raise money so people would buy indulgences. Not backed up in any scripture.

There’s just two. It’s Sunday afternoon here now and I spoke with the Pastor who has agreed to baptise me. He will call me with a date this week. Thank you Lord.

Oh My -have been reading Chick tracts??? How did you EVER come to believe this nonsene? Is this what they are teaching you in the new Church???

Might I just add that this represents a major shift away from “Ok, I’m going to be a Christian this is how I’m going to do it” to " OK, I’m going to give my life to you, please lead me".

The major shift is you are leaving the One True Church, the Church founded by Jsus himslef. A church you dont appear to have a clue as to what its doctrines and the basis of them are. You are trading the TRUTH for emotion. Thats sad.

I am also at a loss as to why you need to be rebaptized. The only conceivable reason for that would be if you are moving to a Church that does not believe that Catholics are Christians? Is that what you believe? If you dont beleive that why would you allow yourself to participate in a sham baprtism? Have you asked this pastor why you need to be baptized again?? It appears you are joining a Church that teaches that there were no Christians on earth for 1500 years after the death and resurrection of Christ? Does that seem reasonable to you?