Thankfulness: A rant

[Freshman88]

To point out someone else’s sin=judging

Thanks, I need all the prayers I can get.

bingo. And what sin did you point out? None, you pointed out their irrevrent clothing. Perhaps we need to make this clear to Eucharisted. Pointing out that someones clothing is irrevrent is not judging them, it’s observing a fact. If we were to go further and say that they were intentionally being irreverent or indifferent, then we’d have another story. Yet this is not the case and you come out attacking this poor poster and ontop of it all, refuse to apologize.

This is classy stuff.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Thanks, all.

But I’m used to it.

I’m sure many of you have experienced the same types of persecution I have. I’m only 22 and I’ve experienced a lot. Here are just a few:

1. I was called a heretic by an old, habit-less nun/teacher at my Catholic high school because I said Mass was a sacrifice. So I dragged out an old pre-Vatican II catechism and asked her if she was wrong, then, when she was a little girl before Vatican II, when she believed Mass was a sacrifice.
2. I’ve nearly been refused Holy Communion because I knelt.
   A priest told me I was “doing it wrong.” So I brought the matter to the Bishop. I wasn’t refused Communion again.
3. I was called sexist for insisting that only males should be altar servers. That’s a weak argument, relying upon ad hominem, so I used the logic that males need the opportunity to decide whether or not they should become priests, and women don’t, so only males should be able to have that kind of liturgical training.

In every single case, I have been vocal and stood up for myself and the type of worship I cherish and love. They won’t take it away from me. I won’t let them. I’ll argue. I’ll debate. And I’ll win.

Ignorant (not calling names, simply assessing their level of knowledge of the OEF) and intolerant people have persecuted us for far too long.

I don’t know about you, but I won’t sit idly by while intolerant, judgmental people control my Church.

 

[mullenpm]

Santo Spiritu,

I know that I was out of line in critizing you for posting what you did. You say that you were only complaining about having to attend Mass at your particular Newman Center.

But, you must admit that your post did not specific that:

*"forced to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass at the university’s Newman Center.

It made me SO thankful that I have the ability to attend the **eminently more uplifting and reverent sacrifice of the Extraordinary Form *on Sundays."

"But unfortunately, there was nothing he could do to make this mass bearable"

That is an incredible statement. The Priest is the Celebrant and the reverence is in his hands. If he is so careful to not commit abuse of the liturgy, what could he possibly be doing to make the Mass unbearable in your eyes?

That said to me in very clear terms that you find the Pauline Mass to be something less than desirable. But, I apologize for ranting at you.

Other posters who say they are in tears when leaving Mass on Sunday seem also to be saying that there is something unseemly about the Pauline Mass.

I agree that women must be attired in modest clothing when attending Mass; I also would like it if women would again wear a head covering when attending Mass. Do you wear a veil when you attend Mass?

Have you asked your new Priest to tell these male servers to tuck in their shirts when serving at the Mass? Perhaps they only have torn jeans to wear. And, they are participating in the Mass.

Have you taken the opportunity to volunteer to be a server at Mass? Have you taken the opportunity to help the new Priest?

You posted that you are always being persecuted for wanting to worship as you please. Have you considered that you may be giving the impression that you KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR FAITH THEN EVERYONE ELSE when it comes to worship? Have you considered following the direction of the Holy Father?

Where were you refused Holy Communion when you knelt? Surely not the new Priest at your Newman Center.

If you stepped back a little and considered the impression you may be putting forth when you make all these objections that you list in your post about being persecuted you may be able to compromise with those PERSECUTING you.

I am from the pre-VII generation so I know the difference between the old and new and I have never, ever, attended Mass where I would leave in tears. The Mass is the Mass.

In any event, I apologize for ranting at you.:hug3:

 

[Frosty]

I don’t know about you, but I won’t sit idly by while intolerant, judgmental people control **my **Church.

Ah, but it is not your church. It is Christ’s Church, not yours, or mine or those who you condemn as being ignorant and intolerant, but His and His alone. It was not created by us or by our Christian ancestors, but by Jesus Christ. This point He made abundantly clear Himself in the Gospels:
“You did not choose me, but I chose you” John 15.16]

The Church is not ours to take back because it never belonged to us, and the instant we make it our “own” we are damned. No merely human institution, no matter how perfectly pure and gutsy and dutiful its members, can take away even a venial sin. This is the point that St. Paul takes sixteen chapters to get across to the Romans

.
This quote by an influential clergyman was made in response to some statements made by various Catholics after the clergy sex scandals in 2002. What he said then is pertinent now as well, to all Catholics regardless of which form of the Mass they prefer to worship at.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Ah, but it is not your church. It is Christ’s Church, not yours, or mine or those who you condemn as being ignorant and intolerant, but His and His alone. It was not created by us or by our Christian ancestors, but by Jesus Christ. This point He made abundantly clear Himself in the Gospels:
“You did not choose me, but I chose you” John 15.16]

This quote by an influential clergyman was made in response to some statements made by various Catholics after the clergy sex scandals in 2002. What he said then is pertinent now as well, to all Catholics regardless of which form of the Mass they prefer to worship at.

Yeah, it’s not our Church. But we have stewardship of it on Earth. This is an awesome role and we must appreciate it accordingly.

You posted that you are always being persecuted for wanting to worship as you please. Have you considered that you may be giving the impression that you KNOW MORE ABOUT OUR FAITH THEN EVERYONE ELSE when it comes to worship? Have you considered following the direction of the Holy Father?

The persecutions I discussed occurred throughout my life, as I made abundantly clear in my post. Yesterday’s Ash Wednesday Mass was about a 5 on the Mass Scale. Not too bad, not great.

Yes, I do serve Mass- at the EF, which I attend much more often than the OF.

Next, I DO find the Pauline Mass less desirable. That’s why I choose not to attend on a regular basis. I accept that it is valid, but I don’t like it. I leave a Latin Mass fulfilled and joyful, whereas I leave a Pauline mass drained and frustrated. That’s my personal preference, nothing more, nothing less.

But since all you oldies ( ) are constantly jabbering about the Church gaining and keeping more young people in its ranks, I hope you can at least appreciate that I’m swimming against the current of secularism and modernism that is rampant in college-aged Catholicism!

 

[Layman]

Pray God we can get a properly-said Sunday TLM in every parish in Catholic Christendom. Then people can vote with their feet.

I don’t see what the big deal with providing them is, anyway. A Low Mass looks fairly easy to do once you know the rubrics and there’s much less pressure on the priest to ‘perform’.

In fact, the N.O. with all the lay involvement looks like more work for all concerned.

 

[JuanCarlos]

All I know is I’ve got enough sins of my own to worry about those of others. If the Mass is irreverent, that is the priest’s responsibility to amend, not ours. If the Mass is irreverent, simply choose not to attend and go to a Mass that gives proper worship to God, like the EOF, or a reverently celebrated OF (Yes, they do exist- my local OF is communion on the tongue kneeling, with no eucharistic ministers, girl altar boys or liturgical abuse).

God knows their hearts; let Him judge.

 

[vz71]

I’m back at my university today and was forced to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass at the university’s Newman Center.

Forced?
Was this at gunpoint?

It made me SO thankful that I have the ability to attend the eminently more uplifting and reverent sacrifice of the Extraordinary Form on Sundays.

As opposed to the less reverent Mass.
God isn’t quite as present in those, is he…

unfortunately, there was nothing he could do to make this mass bearable.

Being in the physical presence of God, and it was unbearable.
Maybe you were paying atention to the wrong things.

The distributors of the ashes were all male students, all clad in ripped jeans and untucked t-shirts.

At least they were there. I have been in attendence of a Mass where less then 10 showed up. Pretty empty church.

The Eucharistic Ministers were those same men plus one middle-aged woman. Needless to say, I slipped into the priest’s line and knelt for Holy Communion.

Of course…why should we accept communion from the great unwashed. God just isn’t quite God enough unless it comes from a priests hands now is it.

The students socialized in loud whispers before Mass while myself and my friends who also attend the EOF knelt praying the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
The students socialized in regular voices after Mass while my friends and I said the prayers after Low Mass.
It made me contemplate the contrasting attitudes about prayer and the Real Presence in the tabernacle: those students who grew up in the OF and those who have had the gift of the EOF experience given to them.

It makes me contemplate why the need to tell us your specific actions in this rant. Are we trying to make ourselves more then we are here?

After the opening hymn, the students slammed their music books into the holders, with little regard for the opening Sign of the Cross. They shuffled up, almost all receiving Holy Communion in the hand.

Not the hands!!!
Oh the indignity of it all, how could you stand to be with God that way?

Many women were dressed immodestly, with skin-tight clothing. It was not only immodest, but provided an occasion of sin for all men in attendance who were trying to worship.

And apparently you.
Pay attention to the Mass. God is there, and you should act accordingly.

In all, it was a somewhat depressing experience,

Yep, God’s presence has that effect on people now doesn’t it.

The whole experience makes me thankful for the EOF. We must pray daily for its resurrection as the primary rite of Roman Catholic worship!

After all, we can all feel holier that way.

Rant just beginning…

What a prideful piece of work.

When you are in the physical presence of God, you should act accordingly. Eyes forward, attention on God.
All of this that you highlight as some trauma that caused the Mass to be ‘unbearable’ is simply an excuse.
YOU are the person that caused Mass to be ‘unbearable’
Your attention is not where it should be, you are concerning yourself with everyone else around you instead of focusing right where you should be.

God is there. And I assure you that the God did not cease to be there because someone wore jeans.

Perhaps you should be thankful there was a Mass to attend.
Perhaps you should be thankful you had a priest to celebrate.
Perhaps you should be thankful so many youth found time to attend (they could easily have been elsewhere).
Perhaps you should simply be thankful.

 

[Layman]

The quieter and more reverent a Mass, the easier it is to worship without distraction.

You can have a technically valid Mass with the attributes of a circus. It would be legitimate to criticise this, and any other form of abuse.

’Close your eyes distractions’ doesn’t help if they’re right in front of you all the time; you’d spend the whole Mass trying to ignore annoying things instead of worshipping.

The previous post also had too much sarcasm.

I think it would be very interesting, if one were rich, to commission a range of psychics (from witchy-poo to Christian seers) to attend a variety of N.O. and TLM masses and report, privately, what they see.

Then one could perhaps get an idea how Heaven attends such rites and to what degree.

I read recently somewhere about the N.O., as commonly performed, as lacking in efficacy; number of seminarians generated, conversions made, that sort of thing.

 

[Contarini]

You’ve undoubtedly seen hundreds of these kinds of polemics here

But rarely with the ironic title you gave yours. Might you consider thinking about the connection between “thankfulness” and ranting? Mightn’t thankfulness lead you to lighten up a bit on the ranting?

Edwin

 

[maurin]

Ah, but it is not your church. It is Christ’s Church, not yours, or mine or those who you condemn as being ignorant and intolerant, but His and His alone. It was not created by us or by our Christian ancestors, but by Jesus Christ. This point He made abundantly clear Himself in the Gospels:
“You did not choose me, but I chose you” John 15.16]

.

You’re right. And wouldn’t it be nice to be able to walk into ANY and EVERY Catholic Church confident that all there–from the Priest to the Faithful–acted as if they were in the presence of Christ Our King?

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

VZ71-

There are so many argumentative fallacies in your post I can’t even begin to address it.

You seem to have a gift for straw men, especially.

Quit putting words in my mouth and making assumptions and I might address you in substantive debate.

 

[I_Believe]

Welcome to the forum Sancto Spiritu.

Look at it this way. The Mass itself is not the problem. If there is irreverence to be found, it’s because of one of two things. In the case of clergy, either they don’t have strong Faith, or they simply, and honestly, don’t know any better. Same with the laity.

Remember, it’s been nearly 40 years since the Novus Ordo Missae was introduced. And nearly 50 years since the VII changes.

There are two groups of traditionalists. Those who were old enough to have been raised on the Gregorian Rite and understood Catholicism as it was before the VII changes, and those who have developed an appreciation for the Tridentine mindset despite being raised on the Novus Ordo.(I’m speaking of cradle Catholics here.)

I don’t think these forums are a good indicator of the average Catholic’s views in regards to the post VII mindset vs the Tridentine mindset. Most contemporary Catholics don’t even know what all the fuss is about.

Stand outside a Novus Ordo Parish and ask any # of people what they think of our Holy Father’s prefered method of distributing Communion, and I’d bet 90% of them don’t know he gives Communion on the tongue to those kneeling. Ask them what they think of the Summorum Pontificum, and most will not know what you are talking about.

Believe me, you will become a spiritual wreck trying to understand why everything seems so irreverent compared to the EF. Just take comfort in knowing that there are those who do know what the fuss is all about, and they are fighting for Tradition. There are those clergy who still see the Church’s mission as the salvation of souls, and our Holy Father is one of them.

If one has strong Faith, the Novus Ordo isn’t going to knock it out of them. Only if we show up looking for what’s wrong, will we walk out of Mass feeling empty and saddened. Sit up front if need be, and use a missal to keep your focus entirely on the Liturgy. Follow all that is happening on the altar, and pray the Mass.

When I catch myself being distracted, I immediately say silently, “Lord forgive my wandering mind”, or something similar, and I refocus on the Liturgy.

When at Mass, gain what Grace you can by focusing on why you are there. There have been lukewarm Catholics since day one, and they will be here long after we are gone. Letting their irreverence turn your thoughts to them and away from God at Mass only pleases Satan.

Just my two cents. I do know how you feel though.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

A wonderful post, much appreciated!

 

[rayne89]

You’ve undoubtedly seen hundreds of these kinds of polemics here, so it’s probably nothing new, but…

I’m back at my university today and was forced to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass at the university’s Newman Center.

It made me SO thankful that I have the ability to attend the eminently more uplifting and reverent sacrifice of the Extraordinary Form on Sundays.

We have a priest who is devout and young and who avoids liturgical abuses like the plague. He wears very traditional vestments and uses liturgical items made of precious metals. He got rid of the previous priest’s “tabernacle-to-the-side-and-smiley-faces-on-chasubles” mentality. But unfortunately, there was nothing he could do to make this mass bearable.

The distributors of the ashes were all male students, all clad in ripped jeans and untucked t-shirts.
The Eucharistic Ministers were those same men plus one middle-aged woman. Needless to say, I slipped into the priest’s line and knelt for Holy Communion.

The students socialized in loud whispers before Mass while myself and my friends who also attend the EOF knelt praying the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
The students socialized in regular voices after Mass while my friends and I said the prayers after Low Mass.
It made me contemplate the contrasting attitudes about prayer and the Real Presence in the tabernacle: those students who grew up in the OF and those who have had the gift of the EOF experience given to them.

After the opening hymn, the students slammed their music books into the holders, with little regard for the opening Sign of the Cross. They shuffled up, almost all receiving Holy Communion in the hand.

Many women were dressed immodestly, with skin-tight clothing. It was not only immodest, but provided an occasion of sin for all men in attendance who were trying to worship.

In all, it was a somewhat depressing experience, but it was slightly remedied after I spoke with Father following Mass. We largely agree on traditionalism. Methinks I’ll inquire as to the possibility of a monthly EOF.

The whole experience makes me thankful for the EOF. We must pray daily for its resurrection as the primary rite of Roman Catholic worship!

Rant ended.

Hmm for some reason Luke Chapter 18 came to mind…*9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed abouta] himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ *

I belong to a parish that celebrates the OF Mass. There are no bongos, no guitars, I’d say 90% of the parishioners receive the Eucharist on the tongue, and we kneel to receive unless we are unable to do so.

Evenso the church allows communicants to receive either on the tongue or the hand, and the norm (at least in the US) is to receive standing. I attend an ethnic parish, where the norms are somewhat different. This divisiveness and pridefulness is not Catholic by any standard, we are to be one, universal church. The problem is not with the form of the Mass but with catechesis. Poor behavior, poor dress are not caused by the OF Mass but by lack of proper instruction.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

First, rayne, you’re lucky. And you must remember that I was attending a Mass on a university campus. It’s not the most prayerful or pious environment.

Second, I have no idea why that Bible passage would occur to you. Do you not agree that women dressing immodestly in Mass is an occasion of sin for the males? When one presents an occasion of sin for another, (s)he is essentially participating in that sin. A woman dressed in tight clothing is presenting the opportunity for men in the congregation to sin.
Do you not agree that a certain decorum must be maintained for Mass, including dress?

And where did I judge those people in my original post? Oh yeah…NOWHERE.

I merely said that I preferred not to worship with them, as I personally did not appreciate their ways. I never said they were bad people or good people or that I was better than they were.

Through this single thread alone, it is apparent to me that several of you urgently require critical reading lessons. I’m troubled and saddened that a young person who loves the Mass (there aren’t many these days) is being accused of pride and a holier-than-thou attitude based purely upon his dismay and sorrow at irreverent practices.

I’m holier than thou? Well, if you think I’m too holy for you, you would do well to reevaluate your own ways.

PS: And by quoting that passage, rayne, you are doing exactly what it says NOT to do.

PPS: I am truly astounded by the lengths to which many of you will defend sinful actions within the OF (not necessarily rayne, but others).

 

[vz71]

VZ71-

There are so many argumentative fallacies in your post I can’t even begin to address it.

You seem to have a gift for straw men, especially.

Quit putting words in my mouth and making assumptions and I might address you in substantive debate.

I don’t need you to.

I know what I wrote is with merit, and your response is nothing more then defensivness from someone who has been nailed.

 

[Freshman88]

I don’t need you to.

I know what I wrote is with merit, and your response is nothing more then defensivness from someone who has been nailed.

Wasn’t someone tossing around a “p” word? Irony is quite alive in this thread, it seems.

 

[maurin]

Perhaps you should be thankful there was a Mass to attend.
Perhaps you should be thankful you had a priest to celebrate.
Perhaps you should be thankful so many youth found time to attend (they could easily have been elsewhere).
Perhaps you should simply be thankful.

Perhaps.

I agree to some extent. Why should anyone give a rat’s tail? The youth were there, the Priest was there, a valid Eucharist was confected.

If you can’t raise the masses to the level of reverence of God, God doesn’t mind being lowered to the level of the masses, does He? That should be obvious, afterall He has allowed tens of thousands of splits in His Body, so no big deal, right? At least some elements of the Truth are contained in these tens of thousands of bodies–it’s all relative isn’t it?

If it is pride that makes Sancto Spiritu lament these indignities to Christ’s Body, what is it that makes you defend them?

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

I don’t need you to.

I know what I wrote is with merit, and your response is nothing more then defensivness from someone who has been nailed.

I don’t think you quite understand (though that doesn’t surprise me in the least).

By definition, you can’t “nail” me because, again, your post was riddled with argumentation errors. Our beloved and famed logician and philosopher Fulton Sheen would undoubtedly slap his forehead after reading it.

You attributed ideas to me that aren’t my own, that don’t exist in my original post, the straw men fallacy. You made broad assumptions- another fallacy.

Now, please go ahead and tell me how prideful I am because I actually use the proper argumentation skills and rhetorical devices God gave me.