Thankfulness: A rant

[Charbeau]

I am an RCIA candidate. I love the Church and I am very eager to be a full member after I am confirmed. I am attracted to the Traditional movement in the Church, I think there is so much value to reverence, tradition and I have been trying to find out as much information about the TLM and pre-VII Catholic worship.

When I see posters who write messages like the original post in this thread and then refuse to gracefully take well-intentioned criticism when the tone of their posts is objectionable to many people, that makes me wary. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this sort of superior attitude on this Traditional Catholicism forum.

I do agree that women should be modestly attired for services and that it would be lovely if disruptions during Mass could be kept at a minimum (I have small children and I am sure they would be as disruptive to Sancto as the chatty attendees were!). My point here is that it is hard to know what exactly is going on with other people attending Mass. Maybe some were new attendees and were trying to get some guidance about what to do? I’ve been in that position when I first started attending Mass.

Anyway, my $.02.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

I am an RCIA candidate. I love the Church and I am very eager to be a full member after I am confirmed. I am attracted to the Traditional movement in the Church, I think there is so much value to reverence, tradition and I have been trying to find out as much information about the TLM and pre-VII Catholic worship.

When I see posters who write messages like the original post in this thread and then refuse to gracefully take well-intentioned criticism when the tone of their posts is objectionable to many people, that makes me wary. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this sort of superior attitude on this Traditional Catholicism forum.

I do agree that women should be modestly attired for services and that it would be lovely if disruptions during Mass could be kept at a minimum (I have small children and I am sure they would be as disruptive to Sancto as the chatty attendees were!). My point here is that it is hard to know what exactly is going on with other people attending Mass. Maybe some were new attendees and were trying to get some guidance about what to do? I’ve been in that position when I first started attending Mass.

Anyway, my $.02.

The criticism leveled at me here was not well-intentioned. It was, more accurately, judgmental tripe written by those trying to explain away the sinful activities of others by calling ME names.

Take a look at my original post. I was saying that I, ME, PERSONALLY, don’t like the things I described. I wasn’t saying that they’re bad people, that they’re evil, that they shouldn’t be let into church.

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

Disruptions from children are normally OK, as they don’t know better, and at least they’re at Mass to begin with. College students should know better. Most of them are cradle Catholics, and are definitely taking their faith for granted.

At any rate, God be with you in your transition into the Catholic Church. We Catholics- although we disagree- welcome you!

 

[vz71]

Now, please go ahead and tell me how prideful I am because I actually use the proper argumentation skills and rhetorical devices God gave me.

OK.

He got rid of the previous priest’s “tabernacle-to-the-side-and-smiley-faces-on-chasubles” mentality. But unfortunately, there was nothing he could do to make this mass bearable.

A Mass that is unbearable…
I am immedietely put off with this.
The highest form of Worship of God, and you found it unbearable?
This places you with some interesting company to say the least.

The students socialized in loud whispers before Mass while myself and my friends who also attend the EOF knelt praying the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
The students socialized in regular voices after Mass while my friends and I said the prayers after Low Mass.
It made me contemplate the contrasting attitudes about prayer and the Real Presence in the tabernacle: those students who grew up in the OF and those who have had the gift of the EOF experience given to them.

Don’t take much to see why a comparison is made between yourself and those around you. Pride.

Now if you had bothered to contrast actions with what should have been taking place, that would have been one thing. But you did not. You placed a comparison with yourself instead.
This is reminiscent of a parable told by Jesus…
Luke 18, 9-13

*And to some who trusted in themselves as just, and despised others, he spoke also this parable: Two men went up into the temple to pray: the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee standing, prayed thus with himself: O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican. I fast twice in a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as lift up his eyes towards heaven; but struck his breast, saying: O God, be merciful to me a sinner. *

 

[rayne89]

First, rayne, you’re lucky. And you must remember that I was attending a Mass on a university campus. It’s not the most prayerful or pious environment.

Second, I have no idea why that Bible passage would occur to you. Do you not agree that women dressing immodestly in Mass is an occasion of sin for the males? When one presents an occasion of sin for another, (s)he is essentially participating in that sin. A woman dressed in tight clothing is presenting the opportunity for men in the congregation to sin.
Do you not agree that a certain decorum must be maintained for Mass, including dress?

And where did I judge those people in my original post? Oh yeah…NOWHERE.

I merely said that I preferred not to worship with them, as I personally did not appreciate their ways. I never said they were bad people or good people or that I was better than they were.

Through this single thread alone, it is apparent to me that several of you urgently require critical reading lessons. I’m troubled and saddened that a young person who loves the Mass (there aren’t many these days) is being accused of pride and a holier-than-thou attitude based purely upon his dismay and sorrow at irreverent practices.

I’m holier than thou? Well, if you think I’m too holy for you, you would do well to reevaluate your own ways.

PS: And by quoting that passage, rayne, you are doing exactly what it says NOT to do.

PPS: I am truly astounded by the lengths to which many of you will defend sinful actions within the OF (not necessarily rayne, but others).

Honestly that’s just the passage that popped in my mind as I read your post. Maybe its the tone of your post. Obviously I wasn’t the only who read it that way by others replies.

I don’t disagree immodest dress can be an occasion of sin. People dress improperly, people socialize -because for the past few decades the church has failed to instruct people. When I went to catechism as a child there was no such instruction. It was all be nice to everyone. I didn’t even know about the real presence until I was my early twenties. We colored, we made cafts, we did fund raisers. What I learned I learned from EWTN and then reading on my own.

I am grateful I can attend a reverent OF Mass. I realize that others must attend Mass where there are rampant abuses. And many of those who attend have no idea they are abuses. I also realize there are still places in the world where one risk their own life in order to be able to attend Mass at all. I think we sometimes take for granted the blessings we have. The body of Christ is still the body of Christ whether we receive it from a priest or an EMHC. One is not more fully Jesus then the other.

I am also very thankful that those that appreciate the EOF have Masses they can attend if that is what draws them closer to God. I am saddened when having it causes divisiveness as it sometimes does.

I don’t think I’m better than you or anyone else. I have a enough of my own sins and faults. I think it is sad that there seems to be as much divisiveness within the Catholic Church as there is outside of it in the numerous Protestant churches. The EOF is not what makes people more reverent, people that attend the EOF are better instructed. My parish does not have the EOF. It is silent before Mass. Your rarely see immodest dress. The catechises is strong at my parish for children as well as adults.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

For Vz-

So what you’re saying (this is not a straw man) is that Masses cannot be “unbearable” and that all who think a Mass is unbearable are equivalent to “interesting company,” (I assume you mean bad people or something).

So, using your logic, then clown Masses, free-form liturgies, liturgical dance, holding hands during the Our Father, etc- that make the Mass unbearable to some- would be acceptable to you because, technically, a consecration occurs (questionable though it may be). I heartily and happily reject this fallacious line of reason.

I contend that one is not required to LIKE a Mass, he is only required to accept its VALIDITY.

The Mass that I attended was perfectly valid. A consecration occurred and God was present. Unfortunately, that fact was nearly the only positive aspect of the Mass. It is not that fact at which I’m dismayed. I’m dismayed at the other things.

Now if you had bothered to contrast actions with what should have been taking place, that would have been one thing. But you did not. You placed a comparison with yourself instead.
This is reminiscent of a parable told by Jesus…

Of course I compared the students to myself. Because I have had a proper education regarding what to do and what not to do at Mass, I know how to reverently conduct myself. They, either not having such an education- or disregarding an education similar to mine- did not reverently conduct themselves.

That’s not pride. That’s fact.

I didn’t judge them for it. I didn’t call them bad. I didn’t insult them. I merely explained the FACTS of the situation. There was no value judgment in my original post.

Indeed, there’s no point to being proud that I can meet the basic requirements of respect for the sacrifice that is taking place. I’m not bragging that I’m sooo holy. I’m merely stating that there is a basic level of reverence that should be expected and my friends and I met it, while they didn’t.

Whether they are “bad” for not meeting this basic level is not my call. THAT’S where the judgment comes in. I DIDN’T make that judgment because it’s not my judgment to make.

 

[mullenpm]

Santo Spiritu,

I have sat back and read all the posts on this thread as they appeared without answering (although it took restraint on my part) but this last remark you made cannot be ignored.

"So, using your logic, then clown Masses, free-form liturgies, liturgical dance, holding hands during the Our Father, etc- that make the Mass unbearable to some- would be acceptable to you because, technically, a ***consecration occurs (questionable though it may be). ***I heartily and happily reject this fallacious line of reason.

This is the most outrageous thing that you have said thus far. You are questioning the validity of the Consecration?

And, please do not say again that words have been put into your mouth or that you were mis-understood.

I have never attended a Pauline Mass where there were clowns, free form liturgies (whatever that means) and liturgical dance; and I doubt that you have either.

I will admit I do not like the holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer but that is hardly something to get over-excited about.

But then, I do not like women as servers at Mass; but, I certainly would not let that detract me from the reason I was there, to honor our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In your first post you were critizing your fellow students, then in a later post you started critizing “older” people. Give us all a break and just cease your posts.

And we all should do the same. Your heart is stone as is your brain. Nothing will change your stubborn attitude. But there are many holy people who have been answering your posts to try to do just that. I fear they will not succeed.

What you do need is a good and holy Confessor who might be able to show you the correct way to attend Mass - paying attention to what the Priest is saying and doing and stop looking at those around you in order to find fault.

You are attending Holy Mass with hatred in your heart. :sad_yes:

 

[vz71]

Of course I compared the students to myself. Because I have had a proper education regarding what to do and what not to do at Mass, I know how to reverently conduct myself. They, either not having such an education- or disregarding an education similar to mine- did not reverently conduct themselves.

That’s not pride. That’s fact.

Fact perhaps.
But there are two ways to approach the situation.
One is to run the comparison with how things should be (whether or not you believe you acted that way).
The other way is to compare to your own actions.

What is the difference? One calls attention to the bad behavior alone. The other calls attention to your own behavior.

You effectively placed yourself at the center as the example of all that is right in the situation.

Your fact has a heaping portion of pride along with it.

 

[vz71]

There was no value judgment in my original post.

Yes there was. As soon as you said the Mass was ‘unbearable’ you made that judgement.

In further posts you have attempted to clarify ‘unbearable’ and confirmed that it is a bad thing.

That coupled with all of the events you listed that caused it to be ‘unbearable’ is a judgement.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I don’t think this thread is getting any more edifying for anybody. It ought to be closed.

I posted my original Bible verse because I used to be very similar to the original poster- I would reluctantly attend the Novus Ordo, then mentally take note of who was wearing shorts, who failed to genuflect before the Tabernacle, who failed to double genuflect when the Host was exposed, etc. I often returned home form Mass complaining to my dad about all these things.

But then one day I just thought to myself- why? Such speech is not edifying- who does it build up?

 

[maurin]

I don’t think this thread is getting any more edifying for anybody. It ought to be closed.

I posted my original Bible verse because I used to be very similar to the original poster- I would reluctantly attend the Novus Ordo, then mentally take note of who was wearing shorts, who failed to genuflect before the Tabernacle, who failed to double genuflect when the Host was exposed, etc. I often returned home form Mass complaining to my dad about all these things.

But then one day I just thought to myself- why? Such speech is not edifying- who does it build up?

Silence only builds up the indignities to Our Lord.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Silence only builds up the indignities to Our Lord.

I condemn the practice, not the person. I have walked out of Masses before because the abuse was too great- it would have been scandalous to stay.

But I don’t believe in condemning specific persons.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Santo Spiritu,
I have sat back and read all the posts on this thread as they appeared without answering (although it took restraint on my part) but this last remark you made cannot be ignored.
"So, using your logic, then clown Masses, free-form liturgies, liturgical dance, holding hands during the Our Father, etc- that make the Mass unbearable to some- would be acceptable to you because, technically, a ***consecration occurs (questionable though it may be). ***I heartily and happily reject this fallacious line of reason.
This is the most outrageous thing that you have said thus far. You are questioning the validity of the Consecration?
And, please do not say again that words have been put into your mouth or that you were mis-understood.
I have never attended a Pauline Mass where there were clowns, free form liturgies (whatever that means) and liturgical dance; and I doubt that you have either.
I will admit I do not like the holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer but that is hardly something to get over-excited about.
But then, I do not like women as servers at Mass; but, I certainly would not let that detract me from the reason I was there, to honor our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
In your first post you were critizing your fellow students, then in a later post you started critizing “older” people. Give us all a break and just cease your posts.
And we all should do the same. Your heart is stone as is your brain. Nothing will change your stubborn attitude. But there are many holy people who have been answering your posts to try to do just that. I fear they will not succeed.
What you do need is a good and holy Confessor who might be able to show you the correct way to attend Mass - paying attention to what the Priest is saying and doing and stop looking at those around you in order to find fault.
You are attending Holy Mass with hatred in your heart.

No.

The validity of those Masses are questionable because some liturgical abuses are such that the validity of the Mass is in question. That isn’t outrageous. It’s fact. Just because your beloved liberalism may lead to an invalid Mass is not my problem.

To avoid the inevitable confusion, I’m NOT saying that all OF Masses are invalid or that holding hands during the Our Father makes a Mass invalid.

As a side note, I find it hilarious that my traditionalism is “outrageous.” Just 40 years ago, it was the norm. Oh, how sorry our state has become that reverence is an outrage to the Church!

Next: If you’re calling me closed minded, you’d be ABSOLUTELY correct.

There was once a time when I was open-minded. Though I’m a cradle Catholic and grew up with the OF, I did my research and attended both the OF and EOF form. And I made my decision:
I decided that the lukewarm Catholicism of the OF Catholic Church was not the environment in which I wanted to worship. You can make excuses for others’ sins all you want, but it won’t change the sorry state of affairs in the American Catholic Church.

In your first post you were critizing your fellow students, then in a later post you started critizing “older” people. Give us all a break and just cease your posts.

Stow it. If I criticized both young and old for the same thing, then you’d have a point. But I criticized them for different things: I criticized college students for not being reverent. And I criticized older people like YOU for rejecting a young person who’s trying to be a good, traditional Catholic.

Good, young Catholics are in short supply these days, and your generation didn’t help. Let’s remember that it was the Baby Boomers whose 1960s modernist drivel allowed the American Church to misinterpret Vatican II and begin its descent into the mess it’s currently in.

And you’re right, you’re no longer putting words in my mouth. You’ve advanced to a different argumentative fallacy, anecdotal evidence.

Just because YOU’VE never attended a Mass with horrifying liturgical abuses doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. And your assumption that I’ve never attended one is false. I have attended one containing liturgical dance done by spandex-clad women. It was a disgusting display. Yours and my experiences, quite simply, are meaningless, in a logical examination of the situation, so the point is moot regardless.

Next, I don’t “look around to find fault.” When people at the FRONT of the Church, standing on the ALTAR, are dressed inappropriately, and when the women sitting in front of me are wearing inappropriate clothing, it is in my line of sight. Of course I try to avert my eyes and keep my mind on the liturgy, and it’s tough.

Finally, why would you want to change my mind? To conform to your liberal attitudes? No thanks!! Why can’t you just applaud the fact that I am a young traditional Catholic who clings to the reverence and tradition of the generation before yours?

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Yes there was. As soon as you said the Mass was ‘unbearable’ you made that judgement.

In further posts you have attempted to clarify ‘unbearable’ and confirmed that it is a bad thing.

That coupled with all of the events you listed that caused it to be ‘unbearable’ is a judgement.

No value judgment on the PEOPLE, not the Mass.

Again, critical reading skills are vital…

 

[TMC]

You’ve undoubtedly seen hundreds of these kinds of polemics here, so it’s probably nothing new, but…

I’m back at my university today and was forced to attend the Ordinary Form of the Mass at the university’s Newman Center.

It made me SO thankful that I have the ability to attend the eminently more uplifting and reverent sacrifice of the Extraordinary Form on Sundays.

We have a priest who is devout and young and who avoids liturgical abuses like the plague. He wears very traditional vestments and uses liturgical items made of precious metals. He got rid of the previous priest’s “tabernacle-to-the-side-and-smiley-faces-on-chasubles” mentality. But unfortunately, there was nothing he could do to make this mass bearable.

The distributors of the ashes were all male students, all clad in ripped jeans and untucked t-shirts.
The Eucharistic Ministers were those same men plus one middle-aged woman. Needless to say, I slipped into the priest’s line and knelt for Holy Communion.

The students socialized in loud whispers before Mass while myself and my friends who also attend the EOF knelt praying the Rosary and the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
The students socialized in regular voices after Mass while my friends and I said the prayers after Low Mass.
It made me contemplate the contrasting attitudes about prayer and the Real Presence in the tabernacle: those students who grew up in the OF and those who have had the gift of the EOF experience given to them.

After the opening hymn, the students slammed their music books into the holders, with little regard for the opening Sign of the Cross. They shuffled up, almost all receiving Holy Communion in the hand.

Many women were dressed immodestly, with skin-tight clothing. It was not only immodest, but provided an occasion of sin for all men in attendance who were trying to worship.

In all, it was a somewhat depressing experience, but it was slightly remedied after I spoke with Father following Mass. We largely agree on traditionalism. Methinks I’ll inquire as to the possibility of a monthly EOF.

The whole experience makes me thankful for the EOF. We must pray daily for its resurrection as the primary rite of Roman Catholic worship!

Rant ended.

I understand your rant, and although I don’t share your feelings, I have no problem with you wanting to express your feelings here. I am also thankful to hear that so many young people are attending Mass at your University. When I went to school (some time back) the Newman center was not so busy on Sunday.

Perhaps attending Mass with your less reverent peers will turn out to be an uplifting experience for you after all. I used to be annoyed by such things, but I have come to find all Masses uplifting and spiritual, even though I have been to many that were… shall we say less than perfect.

Look at it this way, you will get back to the more reverant Mass you prefer in time. In the meantime the discipline of focusing on the mystery of Mass in the midst of so many annoyances may yield unexpected fruit. You may even come to look forward to it.

 

[maurin]

Irreverence is now being marketed as “less than perfect?” And that should be “uplifting?”

Seriously?

We’ve seen these fruits, we do not look forward to more of the same.

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Irreverence is now being marketed as “less than perfect?” And that should be “uplifting?”

Seriously?

AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. AMEN. AMEN.

 

[TMC]

Irreverence is now being marketed as “less than perfect?” And that should be “uplifting?”

Seriously?

We’ve seen these fruits, we do not look forward to more of the same.

Irreverance is certainly less than perfect. It is the **Mass **that is uplifting.

I’m not saying I’m glad that some Masses are less then perfect. But I give thanks for those Masses, too. I can’t make every Mass perfect, but I can control how I deal with them. Some prefer to skulk or stew or rant. I have learned that focusing on the mystery of Christ’s presence and listening for His voice is an uplifting experience, even when amongst the horrors of the unwashed and irreverant common folk. I agree that He can be hard to hear, but He is there and He is worth listening for.

 

[maurin]

even when amongst the horrors of the unwashed and irreverant common folk. I agree that He can be hard to hear, but He is there and He is worth listening for.

c’mon TMC, “unwashed and irreverant common folk?” Is that any way to refer to the Priests that allow this type of irreverance to continue? By their silence they give their consent.

 

[vz71]

No value judgment on the PEOPLE, not the Mass.

Again, critical reading skills are vital…

Oh absolutely.
Perhaps you should read the OP again.

You passed judgement on all of those people when you indicate they are the reason the Mass was unbearable.

Again, critical reading skills are vital…

 

[adstrinity]

Do you not agree that women dressing immodestly in Mass is an occasion of sin for the males?

…And, statistically, some of the females.

I’m troubled and saddened that a young person who loves the Mass (there aren’t many these days)

Says who? I think there are more than we know, but, how would we know these people?

I have never attended a Pauline Mass where there were clowns, free form liturgies (whatever that means) and liturgical dance; and I doubt that you have either.

I have. Do I get a say in any of this? I didn’t even know it was wrong. It was before I became Catholic and it happened at my High School

Give us all a break and just cease your posts…
You are attending Holy Mass with hatred in your heart. :sad_yes:

I find this uncharitable and judgemental.

The OP isn’t even saying he hates the OF. He hasn’t called it the NO Mass, he keeps referring to it as the OF. He stated what happened at this one Mass he attended.

Maybe the people there really don’t know better. I didn’t. Whose fault is that? Theirs? Can they be blamed if they were never correctly taught? They cannot be judged for not knowing any better.

It seems to me Sanctu Spiritu posted this because he is truly greatful for the EF Mass he has the option of attending. It would be as if somebody posted the same thing about having to go to an OF Mass, but, thanful that at their Mass it isn’t so quiet or Latin. He just prefers the EF.

To all of you who said you go to a respectful OF: Good for you. They are few and far between. Again, note that Sanctu Spiritu isn’t condeming the OF Mass, but, the abuses suffered at the one Mass to which he went.

I have never seen so many come out against anybody. What is it about this kid that made you all see red?