Thanking statues after confession? Idol Worship?

[planter654]

I’m not trying to argue. I’m trying to discuss. That’s the entire purpose of this forum.

Are you ever going to answer my questions, or should I assume that you can’t (or won’t), because doing so would be to admit that your accusations against Catholics are false?

My friend I think as you said, I made my point clear and that is what I have choosen. I do not or have in my home anymore statues, pictures of Jesus or what ever. When I go to Church…Catholic…I choose not to look upon any of them. But worship God.

God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Do you have problems carrying pictures of your loved ones in your wallets? What is the difference between carrying a picture of a family member, and having a holy card or a 3-dimensional likeness of a member of Christ’s family? someone who gave up everything, including their possessions, for God?

Yes, I do have a problem with people carrying around photos of loved ones and jump at the opportunity to show-off the appearance of their loved ones when they run into friends. It is idolatrous IMO. I likewise have a problem with people plastering photos of loved ones all over their walls.

Jesus said give up everything and follow him. Moses is held up as an example of a man of God - well, there have been others since. The god of materialism is more of an example of idolatry, and is what you ought to be leery of.

If you were to give up everything you would abandon such practices as accumalting relics, sacramentals, statues, etc… St. Gemma Galgani is a prime example. She was criticized by Jesus (or her guardian angel - not sure which) for not having given up her precious relic (of whom I am unsure).

Persons of Apostolic faiths use images and art to draw the mind to heaven

I highly doubt the early, apostolic church needed images and art to draw the mind to heaven. And still today, the regenerated in Christ should have no such need. They are distractions at the very least. Even nature itself pales in comparison to the Almighty.

 

[planter654]

Ah, but you DID. And that was clearly shown in your posts. And now that you are confronted with your deeds, you deny them!

You don’t know that, since you were not around her 24/7. She did not allow slanderous accusations either. She did not allow such persons to remain in her community.

Yes, but of those who claimed to be members of her community she required the highest of standards. You are misrepresenting yourself here, and you appear to be trying to evangelize. you have already tipped your hand, and made it clear that you are not Catholic.

Is your conscience so seared as with a hot iron that you can misrepresent your own faith in a public place with a clear conscience?

Don’t try to change the subject, or hide behind someone who had no tolerance for deceit. It would be much more noble of you to admit your error.

I am not hiding or change the subject.
No, I am not misrepersenting her. It was the hightest standard in serving God and in obedience to God’s will and desire for her. By her life, her actions, she has taught, changed the harden hearts of many and she lived thousands of miles away. Go home and love your family. She was at a spiritual level that we can never stop praying for to achieve. Imate her in our live, God works in mysterious ways, when we simple ask…pray pray. He will also let you know when you ask him to teach you, if your understanding or getting of track. Oh to taste the sweetness of the LORD!

What is this fear with a “hot iron” you are taking about and “directing at”? My friend, I fear no mere mortal which I am also, only God! And as for with a clear conscience misrepresent your own faith in a public place. You will have to ask yourself why this topic put forth in the first place? What where the true intentions for doing so? To argue, to bash others, to judge, to put quilt or fear with with a hot irons? My faith my friend… is in God, my trust is in… God first!. To fear God is Wisdom!!! the strenght not to worry what mere mortals say.

If you choose to argue, then that is how you CHOOSE to represent your faith in a public forum not mine. I gave what I have personally choosen in my life to do about the topic of Worship of idols. for I am not God, nor choose to judge ones heart or soul.

I am not denying my deeds spoken but you are choosing to argue. I will not go there,no fruit in that.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

Yes, I do have a problem with people carrying around photos of loved ones and jump at the opportunity to show-off the appearance of their loved ones when they run into friends. It is idolatrous IMO. I likewise have a problem with people plastering photos of loved ones all over their walls. If you were to give up everything you would abandon such practices as accumalting relics, sacramentals, statues, etc… St. Gemma Galgani is a prime example. She was criticized by Jesus (or her guardian angel - not sure which) for not having given up her precious relic (of whom I am unsure). I highly doubt the early, apostolic church needed images and art to draw the mind to heaven. And still today, the regenerated in Christ should have no such need. They are distractions at the very least. Even nature itself pales in comparison to the Almighty.

May God Bless you always and thank you for sharing in what you have received! If we boast let us always boast in what we have received from the Lord. I know we would have to leave this world which God says he hates to get away from idols. Jesus mentions this also in the last supper prayer to our Holy Father. But in truth in my heart, of all places they should not be in our Churches, but is not my choice. But I still go to the Catholic Church and do not look upon them and worship God.

May God sweet blessings his grave be with you always.
God Bless…pray pray

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Yes, I do have a problem with people carrying around photos…

Ok, I should rather say I myself would not do it. It does make me uncomfortable that others do it b/c I don’t know why they feel the need to do it. I just have this aweful memory in my mind of my mother pulling out the wallet-photos everytime she’d run into someone so she could show us off. Appearance is very important in my family. I have to question why anyone would do it.

Sorry if that was a projection. But I seriously don’t understand the purpose of doing it. I can see having photos at home so we can look back and remember loved ones who have passed on or show future generations who their family is.

 

[planter654]

Ah, but you DID. And that was clearly shown in your posts. And now that you are confronted with your deeds, you deny them!

You don’t know that, since you were not around her 24/7. She did not allow slanderous accusations either. She did not allow such persons to remain in her community.

Yes, but of those who claimed to be members of her community she required the highest of standards. You are misrepresenting yourself here, and you appear to be trying to evangelize. you have already tipped your hand, and made it clear that you are not Catholic.

Is your conscience so seared as with a hot iron that you can misrepresent your own faith in a public place with a clear conscience?

Don’t try to change the subject, or hide behind someone who had no tolerance for deceit. It would be much more noble of you to admit your error.

I believe it is our God who sits on the throne in His Kingdom. I have nothing to admit nor have I errored God is my judge and knows my heart and soul.

God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

May God Bless you always and thank you for sharing in what you have received! If we boast let us always boast in what we have received from the Lord. I know we would have to leave this world which God says he hates to get away from idols. Jesus mentions this also in the last supper prayer to our Holy Father. But in truth in my heart, of all places they should not be in our Churches, but is not my choice. But I still go to the Catholic Church and do not look upon them and worship God.

May God sweet blessings his grave be with you always.
God Bless…pray pray

Praise God that He has blessed you by it!

Blessings,

 

[lampstand]

…leave this world which God says he hates…

No, God said the world was good. The sin of idolatry is to believe that other gods exist and worship them. It is not to build a statue or an object; very shortly after the giving of the Commandments, God orders the building of the Ark of the Covenant, with its carved cherubim. Praying in front of a statue or an icon is not the same as believing in another god, believing that God is trapped inside that object and will ‘spill out’ if the object breaks, and so forth. We don’t say that the statue contains God or is God. So if that’s your concept of it, you need to read up on the history of icons and statues, because you’ve got it wrong. You can say “I’m sorry, that’s what I think” all you want-- if you continue to think something inaccurate despite the fact that you don’t know what the thing means to begin with, that’s your fault.

Worship is not the act of bowing. It is regarding something as a god. If I say I’m not praying to anything else but God, then you can’t say no, because you don’t know what’s going on inside my head.

If idolatry means any use of physical objects, then why did God tell Moses–twice-- to put the Commandments on stone tablets? Why did he command the people to make an Ark of the Covenant and keep the tablets in them? Why did he instruct them to build a temple? You can take this to an irrational extreme like some of the Muslims who won’t permit any depiction of living things, so all their art is abstract, such as calligraphy or geometric patterns. A statue is not something we use to worship another god besides God.

If objects are not to be used in worship, as an assist to our necessary lives in the physical world, then eventually you’re going to have to take away the church building, and your copy of the Bible, and whatever you’re wearing, and you’ll wind up standing very bewildered in the middle of a field, wondering why it got really breezy all of a sudden…

Looking at a photograph is not idolatry. Neither is looking at a painting or a statue.

 

[planter654]

May God Bless you always and thank you for sharing in what you have received! If we boast let us always boast in what we have received from the Lord. I know we would have to leave this world which God says he hates to get away from idols. Jesus mentions this also in the last supper prayer to our Holy Father. But in truth in my heart, of all places they should not be in our Churches, but is not my choice. But I still go to the Catholic Church and do not look upon them and worship God.

May God sweet blessings his grave be with you always.
God Bless…pray pray

Not his grave sorry typing error it was to read… his grace. Jesus said: I do not ask you to take them out of the world, but meaning to protect them.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

But that’s exactly it. In obeying the Church we are obeying God. If you would hear God, listen to the Church.

I do hear God and we are his church are we not? When Jesus came who did he listen to? Was Jesus not crucified because he obeyed God first? Were not all the apostles also murdered because of their faith in God? Were they not also perscuted for not following or obeying the priest and scribes etc at that time? They were scholars of the law were they not not? Jesus corrected them when asked tricked questions about the law?

God Bless…pray pray pray for we are all God’s children.

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

No God said the world was good.

Before the fall God said that all He had made was good. This is what God has said of the world since then:

1. It’s works are evil:

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

1. The Heavenly Kingdom should be our focus:

John 12:25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

1. Satan is the “prince” of this world:

John 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

1. The world is in darkness:

John 12:46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

1. The world needs to be saved; it is lost:

John 12:47

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world

, but to save the world.
6. It cannot receive the Spirit of truth:

John 14:17

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world

cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1. The peace it offers is not God’s peace:

John 14:27

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

1. It hates God:

John 15:18

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.19:If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
9. It causes tribulation for Christians:

John 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
10. It needed to be overcome by Jesus:

John 16:33

… I have overcome the world.
11. Jesus did not even pray for it:

John 17:9

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
12. God is not of it and neither are Christians:

John 17:14

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

There is so much more. Do a concordance study. God loves His creation, and He especially loves the people of the world, but generally “the world” as here spoken by Jesus is more often than not depicted in a negative way, b/c since the fall of man, the world is very corrupt. How else could Satan be the prince of it? It could only be so since the world is dominated by evil. Remember that Christ’s flock is a little flock; the way is narrow and few will find everlasting life.

Everything that the world esteems is contrary to God’s ways:

1. Instead of self-denial and cross-bearing, the world endorses self-gratification and ease.
2. Instead of humlility and obedience to God it encourages self-esteem/pride, fame and power.
3. Instead of purity and godliness - impurity and filth.
4. Instead of charity - greed & idolatry.
5. Instead of temperance - gluttony, drunkenness, addiction and the endless pursuit of temporal pleasure.
6. Instead of modesty & godliness in attire - vain and immodest.
7. Irreverance for God and anything godly.
8. Dishonesty.
9. Violence…

cont…

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

That is the paradoxical nature of Christ. He shows us what is wrong with what is most “natural” to us. He takes what is most avoided in human experience and blesses it:

Resist not evil.
Love your enemies.
Pray for those who persecute you.
Overcome evil with good.
Blessed are the hungry, the oppressed, etc…

The sin of idolatry is to believe that other gods exist and worship them. It is not to build a statue or an object;

The sin of idolatry is to set any of your affections on anything other than God. Whether or not you intend a statue to represent the OTG, it is in essence “another god” when you kneel before it, pray before it, parade it about, and give it a place of honor.

very shortly after the giving of the Commandments, God orders the building of the Ark of the Covenant, with its carved cherubim.

This is not a good parallel at all. God nowhere orders anyone to build a statue of Him or anyone else with which to use in worship.

Praying in front of a statue or an icon is not the same as believing in another god, believing that God is trapped inside that object and will ‘spill out’ if the object breads, and so forth. We don’t say that the statue contains God or is God.

Those beliefs don’t have to be present for it to be an idol. You give the statue the same treatment and honor you would give only to God. ANYTHING you do that with is an idol.

Worship is not the act of bowing. It is regarding something as a god.

Did St. John think the angel in Revelations was God. No. Yet he was rebuked for falling down and worshipping him. What about kneeling before St. Peter? Did Peter accept it? Was he also mistaken for God??? It is unacceptable to God. Period.

If idolatry means any use of physical objects,

Who said it was? It is the improper use of objects. And statuary is expressly classified as idolatry by God Himself.

Looking at a photograph is not idolatry. Neither is looking at a painting or a statue.

No, simply looking at it is not idolatry unless you have an affection for it or use it improperly like giving it the honor due only God. Since we are obviously prone to doing so (look at the Israelites as an example!) we should avoid them altogether. That is why God forbids it.

Peace,

 

[IAmEdmund]

My friend I have put flowers on my beloved fathers, my grant mothers etc whom I love dearly also as you have. We are taking about “carve images made out of stone.”

Catholics do NOT worship statues.

The evidences you seem to `produce’ are reverential stances toward a statue, image or icon that is being used as a focal point of devotion. I kneel before a cross and even kiss it on Good Friday… i show veneration, not worship. Catholic’s are FORBIDDEN to worship idols or even Mary! ALL worship goes to God.

If someone (catholic or otherwise!) IS, in fact, worshiping the object, (which has been done and IS done)… THAT is idolatry, and it wrong. Hence, the Catholic church is VERY hesitant to deem crying statues' and bleeding crucifixes’ as true miracles. They do so because they understand the commandment all too well, that they are not to have idols. When such veneration is approved, its is done with excruciatiing investigation, and more times than not, a verdict of `this event is worthy of devotion’ is about as much s the Catholic church will allow.

The point is: The Catholic church and her Magisterium, under the Holy Spirit, safeguards the gates, being sure no such infraction of the 10 commandments is allowed or perpetrated inside the Church.

It may certainly happen, as I myself (and many others) have seen when many people put great stock in items' like the Shroud of Turin’ or Medjegoure(sp) rosarys. (NOTE: I am not stating any form of beleif in these 2 things… I am using them as example only!)

Bottom line: The Catholic church forbids and removes and idol worshipping or attempts to do so.

I beleive people who SEE it as such are not seeing this form of vernation and devotion as something seperate from worship.

Personally, such statues, icons and images I see as like a photo album of my Catholic faith.

Besides… we are, after all, made in God’s image, no? We are sensate beings, no? We have eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, hands to feel and tongues to taste. I SEE the statue of Mary, as i hear others praying to her for her INTERCESSIONS with her Son. (See Wedding Feast 0f Cana… Mary interceded to Jesus on behalf of the wedding couple, no?) I feel the soft heat of the candles lit before the image of the crucifix, I smell the inscnese wafted in fron tof and around the altar.

God gave me these senses, and allows people to use them to glorify god in art and imagery directed at the Lord. Please do not see this as idol worship. It just plain is not.

 

[IAmEdmund]

I highly doubt the early, apostolic church needed images and art to draw the mind to heaven. And still today, the regenerated in Christ should have no such need. They are distractions at the very least. Even nature itself pales in comparison to the Almighty.

The Chi-Ro' symbol is found ALL over the catacomb walls of Rome, depicting the symbol/image of Christ for beleivers to recognise. The Chi-Ro was THE symbol of Christianity before the Constantinian cross’ found favor in the Empire.

Methinks you are more JW in your ideology, my friend.

 

[Nordar]

God gave me these senses, and allows people to use them to glorify god in art and imagery directed at the Lord. Please do not see this as idol worship. It just plain is not.

Sadly no matter how many times you and others present this truth, there are those who quite simply have selective hearing/reading. They do not wish to hear the truth, they will continue to spout Anti Catholic rhetoric. When repeated over and over again especially on a Catholic forum it is an exercise in futility. Catholics know what the truth is.

 

[IAmEdmund]

Sadly no matter how many times you and others present this truth, there are those who quite simply have selective hearing/reading. They do not wish to hear the truth, they will continue to spout Anti Catholic rhetoric. When repeated over and over again especially on a Catholic forum it is an exercise in futility. Catholics know what the truth is.

Thank you, and duly noted.

I’ll place him on the prayer list.

(Hmmm… I’ll even leave the list in front of our statue of Mother Mary tonight. Nothing like getting the ULTIMATE Jewish Mother involed!)

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Catholics do NOT worship statues.

The evidences you seem to `produce’ are reverential stances toward a statue, image or icon that is being used as a focal point of devotion.

But reverence is due only to God. You show reverence to a staute when you kneel before it. Btw, if you look in a thesaurus for a suitable replacement for worship, “reverence” and “veneration” are suggested words. Even the secular world sees the relationship between the two.

I kneel before a cross and even kiss it on Good Friday… i show veneration, not worship. Catholic’s are FORBIDDEN to worship idols or even Mary! ALL worship goes to God.

Again, veneration/reverence/worship: All are for God alone. There is no need to replace God with an image to be your focal point in worship.

I beleive people who SEE it as such are not seeing this form of vernation and devotion as something seperate from worship.

If it is used in worship, it is not seperate from it.

Personally, such statues, icons and images I see as like a photo album of my Catholic faith.

I’d be very concerned if you likewise treated your photo album this way; burning candles before it - praying and kneeling before it…j

Besides… we are, after all, made in God’s image, no? We are sensate beings, no? We have eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, hands to feel and tongues to taste.

I understand that the use of sensual things can be an aid in worship, but I don’t think it has to be, and indeed we should strive to worship in spirit - not needing inadequate, tangible representations of God in order to truly worship Him. I don’t mean to imply anything negative in saying this, but if someone knows God, why do they need these representations? None of them are adequate! St. John of the Cross said that even nature itself, though lovely and beautiful a creation of God and a wonder representation of His goodness, pales in comparison to God Himself. For the soul truly hungry for God, even the loftiest of nature’s scenes cannot quench his hunger and only bring unrest, b/c nothing more beautiful can be had but God Himself. What realy beauty can one behold in a statue? What likeness is it to God? Nothing we produce can bear any resemblance to Him or any of His attributes.

I SEE the statue of Mary, as i hear others praying to her for her INTERCESSIONS with her Son. (See Wedding Feast 0f Cana… Mary interceded to Jesus on behalf of the wedding couple, no?) I feel the soft heat of the candles lit before the image of the crucifix, I smell the inscnese wafted in fron tof and around the altar.

I don’t see why your worship experience needs to appeal to all your senses like so. All of mine are engaged during worship too, but I don’t try to highten them with incense and candles and extraordinary music and the like b/c it puts more of my focus on the tangible and the earthly rather than on the intangible and other-worldly! Rather than singing “spiritual songs” I may be admiring the cantor’s voice or the choir’s voices or the pianist,etc… Instead of having my mind and heart on God it may be distracted by the smells and images. It looks to be a very carnal way of worship vs a truly spiritual one. There is too much focus on us and what we can produce vs God.

God gave me these senses, and allows people to use them to glorify god in art and imagery directed at the Lord.

Yes, we should glorify God in everything we do - whether we are doing so formally in church worship or in the mundane things of every day life. But that does not mean we should try to stir our senses during worship. There is no parallel there at all. In fact, stirring the senses during worship is the opposite of what we should be doing. Even the ecstatic are “senseless” in the earthly senses. The spirit transcends the senses. Encouraging stirring the senses is providing distraction at the very least and certainly is an obstacle to spiritual progress.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

The Chi-Ro' symbol is found ALL over the catacomb walls of Rome, depicting the symbol/image of Christ for beleivers to recognise. The Chi-Ro was THE symbol of Christianity before the Constantinian cross’ found favor in the Empire.

Methinks you are more JW in your ideology, my friend.

No, Anabaptist; Mennonite.

So b/c we have found ancient evidence of symbols you somehow equate this with being an aid during worship? Or you think candles and incense were burned before it and people bowed and prayed before it? The cross has long been a symbol of Christianity. There is nothing wrong with that. We use symbols all the time. Jesus even commanded it in several ordinances: oil, bread, wine, water, headship covering, etc… But we need not worship the symbols themselves.

Peace,

 

[IAmEdmund]

No, Anabaptist; Mennonite.

So b/c we have found ancient evidence of symbols you somehow equate this with being an aid during worship? Or you think candles and incense were burned before it and people bowed and prayed before it? The cross has long been a symbol of Christianity. There is nothing wrong with that. We use symbols all the time. Jesus even commanded it in several ordinances: oil, bread, wine, water, headship covering, etc… But we need not worship the symbols themselves.

Peace,

As a Catholic, I do not worship anyone (or thing) but God.

This is clearly your fixation on being anti-Catholic.

Might I ask you who wronged you in the Catholic church that has broght about your ire and refusal to see common sense and truth in this matter?

 

[David_Poem]

That is the paradoxical nature of Christ. He shows us what is wrong with what is most “natural” to us. He takes what is most avoided in human experience and blesses it:

Resist not evil.
Love your enemies.
Pray for those who persecute you.
Overcome evil with good.
Blessed are the hungry, the oppressed, etc…

The sin of idolatry is to set any of your affections on anything other than God. Whether or not you intend a statue to represent the OTG, it is in essence “another god” when you kneel before it, pray before it, parade it about, and give it a place of honor. This is not a good parallel at all. God nowhere orders anyone to build a statue of Him or anyone else with which to use in worship. Those beliefs don’t have to be present for it to be an idol. You give the statue the same treatment and honor you would give only to God. ANYTHING you do that with is an idol. Did St. John think the angel in Revelations was God. No. Yet he was rebuked for falling down and worshipping him. What about kneeling before St. Peter? Did Peter accept it? Was he also mistaken for God??? It is unacceptable to God. Period. Who said it was? It is the improper use of objects. And statuary is expressly classified as idolatry by God Himself. No, simply looking at it is not idolatry unless you have an affection for it or use it improperly like giving it the honor due only God. Since we are obviously prone to doing so (look at the Israelites as an example!) we should avoid them altogether. That is why God forbids it.

Peace,

wow ,well done and well said