Thanking statues after confession? Idol Worship?

[IAmEdmund]

{{The quote: No, simply looking at it is not idolatry unless you have an affection for it or use it improperly like giving it the honor due only God.}}

wow… well done, and well said!

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

As a Catholic, I do not worship anyone (or thing) but God.

This is clearly your fixation on being anti-Catholic.

I am not anit-Catholic. I am pro-Christianity no matter what label you want to give it.

Might I ask you who wronged you in the Catholic church that has broght about your ire and refusal to see common sense and truth in this matter?

Absolutely no one. I have no personal problems with anyone at all in the Catholic church. In the midst of working on a “eucharistic renewal” apostolate in my diocese I consulted Scripture and found the teaching of Real Presence to be totally unbiblical and contrary to the nature of Christ and His other teachings. To getter a better idea on that visit the recent thread on John 6. Anyway, I had serious doubts about the RP at that time and questioned an EWTN apologist who was unable to convince me. In fact, he didn’t even try. His response was “you’ve been speaking to heretics”! Regardless, I overcame my doubts (for the most part), and resolved to trust the church. Shortly thereafter I was dx-ed with Celiac Sprue and coudn’t receive communion at all per the order of my parish priest while they were investigating the low-gluten hosts. During this time I made spiritual communions, but also dove into Scripture for nourishment. It was then that I discovered many more errors with Catholic doctrines, practices, and traditions.

I think my gluten-intolerance was a gift from God. It was exactly what I needed to open my eyes to my idolatry. I had spent the past 10 years of my life chasing the “eucharistic god”. “Man cannot live on bread alone…”

Peace,

 

[IAmEdmund]

I am not anit-Catholic. I am pro-Christianity no matter what label you want to give it. Absolutely no one. I have no personal problems with anyone at all in the Catholic church.

It was then that I discovered many more errors with Catholic doctrines, practices, and traditions.

I think my gluten-intolerance was a gift from God. It was exactly what I needed to open my eyes to my idolatry. I had spent the past 10 years of my life chasing the “eucharistic god”. “Man cannot live on bread alone…”

Peace,

Then you have left the Catholic church?.. and are coming here to pull others out and into your heresy? Dangerous hobby there, kiddo. And YOU have discovered erros with doctrine, practices and traditions? (You sound like a mormon now… Joseph Smith did the same thing.)

If you were chasing a `eucharistic god’, then you were wrong to begin with. Jesus Christ doesnt run from you, he has always been there in the Tabernacle. The center holds… Christ reigns and rules, having founded the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and by the guidance of the Spirit, allows the magesterium to guide the Chruch into his ways and understanding.

You are angry over something, my friend… its blatantly clear.

 

[Nordar]

And YOU have discovered erros with doctrine, practices and traditions? (

Don’t ya just love it?

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Then you have left the Catholic church?..

Yes

and are coming here to pull others out and into your heresy? Dangerous hobby there, kiddo.

No, but the past 3 years have been a rollercoaster of trying to overcome my Catholic indoctrination. I came here to see if I am more resolved and better able to answer Catholic apologetics. I am always open to truth. If Catholicism is true, I am ready to embrace it. So I come here with an open heart and mind asking God to guide me. So far I have only been stregthened in my Biblical convictions…

And YOU have discovered erros with doctrine, practices and traditions? (You sound like a mormon now… Joseph Smith did the same thing.)

Are you serious? Much more than just Joseph Smith! But they were not all without their own errors too, no?

If you were chasing a `eucharistic god’, then you were wrong to begin with. Jesus Christ doesnt run from you, he has always been there in the Tabernacle.

I was on a daily quest to receive communion. Not being able to - for whatever reason - was heartbreaking. Even now that the issue of the hosts has been resolved, the past few years of going to daily mass bothered my conscience. I would go for a while and then stop realizing that I was chasing God in the eucharist and not truly possessing Him any more than if I had not gone at all. In fact, the more I sought to receive, the further God was. So, not only had Scripture tried convicting me of the error of the r.p., and not only the Celiac discovery, but experience itself was the final convictor. I knew entirely in my heart and mind that it was wrong.

center holds… Christ reigns and rules, having founded the Holy Roman Catholic Church, and by the guidance of the Spirit, allows the magesterium to guide the Chruch into his ways and understanding.

See my “circular argument” for my response to that…

You are angry over something, my friend… its blatantly clear.

If you sense anger in my posts it is your own imagination. What is blatantly clear that you are sensing is my deep concern.

Peace

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Don’t ya just love it?

What do you find amusing here?

Tell me - What is more likely: That the largest Christian denomination in the world is the true and surest path to God, or that the truth is not so commonly understood and few will grasp it?

I’ll let Jesus answer that:

The way is narrow.
Few will find it.

Now, do I think all Catholics are damned? No, I do not. Do I think all Mennonites are saved? No. But there surely is no security in a church name, heirarchy, lineage or anything else. It all comes down to the individual and the shoe-leather.

Peace

 

[Nordar]

What do you find amusing here?

Now, do I think all Catholics are damned? No, I do not. Do I think all Mennonites are saved? No. But there surely is no security in a church name, heirarchy, lineage or anything else. It all comes down to the individual and the shoe-leather.

Peace

Amusing?

I respectfully disagree with you.

 

[GreenLantern]

What do you find amusing here?

Tell me - What is more likely: That the largest Christian denomination in the world is the true and surest path to God, **or that the truth is not so commonly understood and few will grasp it? **

Gnosticism much?

Besides, how many Catholics out there fall short of the Church’s teachings? Would you say that a nominal “Christmas-Easter” Catholic is a good example of Catholicism?

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”-GK Chesterton

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Gnosticism much?

If you believe that is gnosticism you are mistaken. Jesus taught it:

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Do you disagree that the simple in Jesus’ day (and seldom the learned) were the one’s who best understood Jesus and embraced His teachings? And if the majority are capable of understanding, then how is it that few will find the way?

Perhaps it is a matter of wording. Maybe it is better put that we are all CAPABLE of understanding, but few have circumcized hearts with which to EMBRACE it. Man is good at self-deception. He may even convince himself that he is following his understanding of God’s revelation when in fact he has found deceptive ways to reason around the parts he doesn’t want to follow or finds difficult to accept.

Peace,

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

Besides, how many Catholics out there fall short of the Church’s teachings? Would you say that a nominal “Christmas-Easter” Catholic is a good example of Catholicism?

Of course not. I have not judged the church based on the lowest common denominator. Unfaithfulness is as much a problem in Catholicism as it is in “Bible-Only” faiths. Regardless, I am interested in truth, not in what others are doing. The problem with idolatry in the church isn’t to do with the nominal, cafeteria-Catholicism. It is a problem in what the church has allowed and now even encourages.

“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”-GK Chesterton

Words of wisdom…

Peace,

 

[guanophore]

I am not hiding or change the subject.

Yes. You did. You did not answer the questions. You brought up another subject. That is called dodging.

No, I am not misrepersenting her.

Just trying to hide behind her, tiny little thing! we can still see you!

And as for with a clear conscience misrepresent your own faith in a public place. You will have to ask yourself why this topic put forth in the first place?

You are changing the subject again, planter. I said that you are pretending to be Catholic when you are not, and I asked you how you can do that with a clear conscience. You are misrepresenting yourself, then you have the cheek to try to hide behind Blessed Teresa!

The topic was put here because the OP thought it was a preposterous assertion.

 What where the true intentions for doing so? To argue, to bash others, to judge, to put quilt or fear with  with a hot irons?

Yes, I think during the dialogue that someone was judging and criticizing the Catholic faith and practice.

I gave what I have personally choosen in my life to do about the topic of Worship of idols. for I am not God, nor choose to judge ones heart or soul.

If you believe that Catholics worship statues, then you are not Catholic, and have no business partaking of the Mass, since you don’t know what the Faith is all about. A stripped church would be much better, don’t you think?

I am not denying my deeds spoken but you are choosing to argue. I will not go there,no fruit in that.

God Bless

Then perhaps you will go back and answer the question that was put to you about flowers on a grave?

May God Bless you always and thank you for sharing in what you have received! If we boast let us always boast in what we have received from the Lord. I know we would have to leave this world which God says he hates to get away from idols. Jesus mentions this also in the last supper prayer to our Holy Father. But in truth in my heart, of all places they should not be in our Churches, but is not my choice. But I still go to the Catholic Church and do not look upon them and worship God. God Bless…pray pray

There are no idols in the Catholic Church. If you believe what you have written, you are not Catholic. That is why I say you are misrepresenting yourself.

 

[guanophore]

I do hear God and we are his church are we not?

I am not sure, planter. If you believe the HS is an “it” and you think Catholics have idols in the Church and worship them, then it is not clear if you are part of His church or not!

God Bless…pray pray pray for we are all God’s children.

Certainly all are made in the image and likeness of God, and I will certainly pray for you that you may be conformed to that image.

By the way, scripture uses the term “ikon” of Christ, where He is the image of God.

 

[planter654]

That is the paradoxical nature of Christ. He shows us what is wrong with what is most “natural” to us. He takes what is most avoided in human experience and blesses it:

Resist not evil.
Love your enemies.
Pray for those who persecute you.
Overcome evil with good.
Blessed are the hungry, the oppressed, etc…

The sin of idolatry is to set any of your affections on anything other than God. Whether or not you intend a statue to represent the OTG, it is in essence “another god” when you kneel before it, pray before it, parade it about, and give it a place of honor. This is not a good parallel at all. God nowhere orders anyone to build a statue of Him or anyone else with which to use in worship. Those beliefs don’t have to be present for it to be an idol. You give the statue the same treatment and honor you would give only to God. ANYTHING you do that with is an idol. Did St. John think the angel in Revelations was God. No. Yet he was rebuked for falling down and worshipping him. What about kneeling before St. Peter? Did Peter accept it? Was he also mistaken for God??? It is unacceptable to God. Period. Who said it was? It is the improper use of objects. And statuary is expressly classified as idolatry by God Himself. No, simply looking at it is not idolatry unless you have an affection for it or use it improperly like giving it the honor due only God. Since we are obviously prone to doing so (look at the Israelites as an example!) we should avoid them altogether. That is why God forbids it.

Peace,

Thank you for sharing with what you have received! Oh! to taste the sweetness of the Lord!

One does not live by bread alone, but by “every word” that comes forth, from the mouth of God! Then the devil left Jesus and, angels came and ministered to Jesus. Matthew Chapter 4 Verse 4

Fear no mere mortal, for if God is with you, who dare be against you!

Jesus said to Satan when being tempted: The Lord, your God, shall you worship and him alone shall you serve! Matthew Chapter 4 Verse 10

Beautifully done “Joy” ! Satan is a great deceiver he has had generations of experience! Fear no mere mortal, for what

God Bless you and may his peace and grace be with you always!

 

[planter654]

Catholics do NOT worship statues.

The evidences you seem to `produce’ are reverential stances toward a statue, image or icon that is being used as a focal point of devotion. I kneel before a cross and even kiss it on Good Friday… i show veneration, not worship. Catholic’s are FORBIDDEN to worship idols or even Mary! ALL worship goes to God.

If someone (catholic or otherwise!) IS, in fact, worshiping the object, (which has been done and IS done)… THAT is idolatry, and it wrong. Hence, the Catholic church is VERY hesitant to deem crying statues' and bleeding crucifixes’ as true miracles. They do so because they understand the commandment all too well, that they are not to have idols. When such veneration is approved, its is done with excruciatiing investigation, and more times than not, a verdict of `this event is worthy of devotion’ is about as much s the Catholic church will allow.

The point is: The Catholic church and her Magisterium, under the Holy Spirit, safeguards the gates, being sure no such infraction of the 10 commandments is allowed or perpetrated inside the Church.

It may certainly happen, as I myself (and many others) have seen when many people put great stock in items' like the Shroud of Turin’ or Medjegoure(sp) rosarys. (NOTE: I am not stating any form of beleif in these 2 things… I am using them as example only!)

Bottom line: The Catholic church forbids and removes and idol worshipping or attempts to do so.

I beleive people who SEE it as such are not seeing this form of vernation and devotion as something seperate from worship.

Personally, such statues, icons and images I see as like a photo album of my Catholic faith.

Besides… we are, after all, made in God’s image, no? We are sensate beings, no? We have eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, hands to feel and tongues to taste. I SEE the statue of Mary, as i hear others praying to her for her INTERCESSIONS with her Son. (See Wedding Feast 0f Cana… Mary interceded to Jesus on behalf of the wedding couple, no?) I feel the soft heat of the candles lit before the image of the crucifix, I smell the inscnese wafted in fron tof and around the altar.

God gave me these senses, and allows people to use them to glorify god in art and imagery directed at the Lord. Please do not see this as idol worship. It just plain is not.

Please read again where you make the statement …the point is: No, such in fraction of the 10 commandments is allowed or perpetrated inside the church.

God Bless “all the little children for he loves us all dearly”.

 

[bookgirl32]

The sin of idolatry is to set any of your affections on anything other than God.

So I’m idolizing my husband? Or my baby? Or my friends? Or my cat?

 

[planter654]

But reverence is due only to God. You show reverence to a staute when you kneel before it. Btw, if you look in a thesaurus for a suitable replacement for worship, “reverence” and “veneration” are suggested words. Even the secular world sees the relationship between the two. Again, veneration/reverence/worship: All are for God alone. There is no need to replace God with an image to be your focal point in worship. If it is used in worship, it is not seperate from it. I’d be very concerned if you likewise treated your photo album this way; burning candles before it - praying and kneeling before it…j I understand that the use of sensual things can be an aid in worship, but I don’t think it has to be, and indeed we should strive to worship in spirit - not needing inadequate, tangible representations of God in order to truly worship Him. I don’t mean to imply anything negative in saying this, but if someone knows God, why do they need these representations? None of them are adequate! St. John of the Cross said that even nature itself, though lovely and beautiful a creation of God and a wonder representation of His goodness, pales in comparison to God Himself. For the soul truly hungry for God, even the loftiest of nature’s scenes cannot quench his hunger and only bring unrest, b/c nothing more beautiful can be had but God Himself. What realy beauty can one behold in a statue? What likeness is it to God? Nothing we produce can bear any resemblance to Him or any of His attributes. I don’t see why your worship experience needs to appeal to all your senses like so. All of mine are engaged during worship too, but I don’t try to highten them with incense and candles and extraordinary music and the like b/c it puts more of my focus on the tangible and the earthly rather than on the intangible and other-worldly! Rather than singing “spiritual songs” I may be admiring the cantor’s voice or the choir’s voices or the pianist,etc… Instead of having my mind and heart on God it may be distracted by the smells and images. It looks to be a very carnal way of worship vs a truly spiritual one. There is too much focus on us and what we can produce vs God. Yes, we should glorify God in everything we do - whether we are doing so formally in church worship or in the mundane things of every day life. But that does not mean we should try to stir our senses during worship. There is no parallel there at all. In fact, stirring the senses during worship is the opposite of what we should be doing. Even the ecstatic are “senseless” in the earthly senses. The spirit transcends the senses. Encouraging stirring the senses is providing distraction at the very least and certainly is an obstacle to spiritual progress.

Peace,

Beautiful said and I fully agree with you. I trust in God only! May God’s blessings and his grace be with you always!

 

[planter654]

wow ,well done and well said

 

[planter654]

No, Anabaptist; Mennonite.

So b/c we have found ancient evidence of symbols you somehow equate this with being an aid during worship? Or you think candles and incense were burned before it and people bowed and prayed before it? The cross has long been a symbol of Christianity. There is nothing wrong with that. We use symbols all the time. Jesus even commanded it in several ordinances: oil, bread, wine, water, headship covering, etc… But we need not worship the symbols themselves.

Peace,

Never stop questioning Joy. I agree with you. I ask questions to God every day and he does answer! I Trust in God only.

God Bless

 

[planter654]

As a Catholic, I do not worship anyone (or thing) but God.

This is clearly your fixation on being anti-Catholic.

Might I ask you who wronged you in the Catholic church that has broght about your ire and refusal to see common sense and truth in this matter?

I rather be called a child of God. God Bless

 

[JoyToBeCatholic]

So I’m idolizing my husband? Or my baby? Or my friends? Or my cat?

Yes, you certainly can idolize them, and many do. It’s a hard thing to avoid, but we should resist the temptation. I see parents idolize their little children by dressing them up. I see people idolize their families when they so eagerly pass around their photos of them. I can idolize my husband by giving his opinion first place over the commandments of God. We idolize our unbelieving loved ones when we refrain from telling them the truth about Jesus and that their souls are in jeopardy. We idolize society when we set our convictions aside for the sake of solidarity.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple.

Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son.

God cannot be replaced without commiting a grave sin. If you had no affection for a statue you would not treat it as though it were God. It is the treatment of the statue that makes it idolatry. Best way to avoid it is to discourage it!

We are supposed to be so abandoned that we even strip away at self. Doesn’t it go without saying that she should strip away and abandon useless materialism as well? Abandoning self is far more difficult.