Thanking statues after confession? Idol Worship?

[lukewarm]

lukewarm:

Originally Posted by lukewarm
According to you billions of Muslims and Jews would disagree…

It’s sic]

Before going to much further, and putting the cart before the horse… Do you or do you not disagree that Islam and post-temple judaism are errant faiths?

Not really sure to be honest, I’m not sure both can’t be compatible or relatively true or have some truth. Judaism is a revelation given to a certain group of people, Islam may be a revelation to another group of people, I don’t think they contradict one another. But they are the only monotheistic religions and both follow much the same laws. I would say they both follow the Bible much better than Catholic’s or Christian’s in general though. This is just my opinion, but I don’t think any religion has it 100% right.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

This is something I struggled with a lot too, but I decided not to leave the Church. But for a long time I didn’t like statues at all.

What I saw as rampant idolatry being promoted by the Church is hardly a small issue.

…

Someone giv me one good reason why we should be making graven images, giving burnt offerings and prayers before them? How does that enhance ones relationship with God? At what point does it go from “veneration” to “dulia” or “hyper-dulia”? At what point does “veneration” of the object cross that line? I would just assume remove it form the equation all together.

I don’t know if there’s a “good reason” to have them. They serve as reminders and help us visualize Jesus and the saints, but how important is that really? I think ‘crossing the line’ would only occur if you start giving the statue power of its own that it doesn’t derive from God, or giving it honor that you intend for the statue instead of for God. If you’re honoring god while praying in front of the statue, or talking to it, I don’t see how it crosses the line into idolatry.

The reason we have them is that pagans were used to using statues in their worship and found a place for them in Christianity when they converted. It helped them visualize the saints and God and it still does that today for some people.

The real reason for the 2nd commandment was that God didn’t want us worshipping other gods.

 

[ckonrad]

What I saw as rampant idolatry being promoted by the Church is hardly a small issue.

I left for many reasons, most doctrinal, some having to do with the terrible behavior of Priests and Bishops, some had to do with the coldness of Catholic Parish life. They are all my own and it wasn’t a rash decision, it’s one that took years to make.

Someone giv me one good reason why we should be making graven images, giving burnt offerings and prayers before them? How does that enhance ones relationship with God? At what point does it go from “veneration” to “dulia” or “hyper-dulia”? At what point does “veneration” of the object cross that line? I would just assume remove it form the equation all together.

I believe that in Catholicism we are very comfortable with our monotheism and our commitment to God alone so much so that we can pray in front of a statue or picture with comfort knowing that we aren’t praying to or worshipping the sculpture or picture. Its interesting when you think about it jews and muslims are incapable of doing what WE do because they are not as comfortable with their monotheism. If a jew or a muslim were to kneel before Jesus, Mary or Joseph represented by a statue or a painting that jew or muslim would really beleive they were worshipping the statue and praying to it, but in Catholicism we are bit wiser than that we know we are worshipping God alone. the reason why God forbade worshipping staues and images is because people back then really believed the statue had some kind of power. So ironically enough it would seem that muslims and jews who know that no stone or picture is God as we do would not regard it as a big deal. In Catholicism we have grown up so far past thinking that a stone is God that we can comfortably enjoy the beautiful art and use it to help us worship because art helps human beings derive emotional response as does music, which is also a form of art. Interestingly enough orthodox muslims dont allow music either. The art of the Catholic church helps us worship with our bodies, minds, emotions, souls.

Regarding the terrible behavior of priests etc, imagine if the deciples of Jesus turned away simply because of what Judas did. There are many Judas’s in the catholic church and will continue to be many but the answer is always more fidelity.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It’s sic]

Not really sure to be honest, I’m not sure both can’t be compatible or relatively true or have some truth. Judaism is a revelation given to a certain group of people, Islam may be a revelation to another group of people, I don’t think they contradict one another. But they are the only monotheistic religions and both follow much the same laws. I would say they both follow the Bible much better than Catholic’s or Christian’s in general though. This is just my opinion, but I don’t think any religion has it 100% right.

Brackets can be problematic on here that is why I opted for <> but thank you for that. If we are going for corrections - no apostrophes needed for “Catholic’s or Christian’s” as you are using the plural, not a possession.

Starting at the end, if you don’t think any religion is 100% right, how do you come to the conclusions of what is definately wrong? You demonstrate much certitude that the use of imagery and statuary is problematic for your fear it transgresses the second commandment, prohibiting us from worshipping other gods.

I am wondering how it comes to be the case that you have such confidence in your interpretation on that matter (or even on the inerrancy and divine origin of the scripture).

Judaism is a revelation given to a certain group of people, Islam may be a revelation to another group of people, I don’t think they contradict one another.

Firstly I would suggest that in fact they do contradict each other and similarities don’t indicate non-contradiction.

Secondly I would ask for clarification on what you mean in saying “But they are the only monotheistic religions and both follow much the same laws.” Do you mean to say the most significant non-Christian monotheistic religions? I really can’t comfortably say that they follow the same laws, not even close.

 

[VociMike]

It isn’t just giving a graven image the worship due God, read the commandment, it is against making them, bowing to them, and worshipping them. All three don’t have to be met in order for it to be wrong.

In that case,

Ex 20:4 “You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

That covers just about any image of anything. And 99.99% of Christians have images of some sort. So will you convict them all of breaking God’s law? Or will you cut them slack that you won’t cut Catholics?

Comparing the Bible to graven images and venerating them talk about spin…

You’re the one who suggests that if a few people out of billions get it wrong then there’s a problem. But now you seem to be repudiating that line of argument. Good.

If you have a minute please answer my question. If the 2nd Commandment states:

***You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

**You shall not bow down *****to them or (notice the or here seperating bowing and worshiping as different things I take this to not allow veneration of statues clearly) worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

So here we have the commandment stating not to make them, not to bow to them (IMO clearly not allowing veneration because it differentiates bowing and worshipping as not necesarily the same thing), and worshipping them.

Now after reading that give me one good reason why your Church reads this same commandment then instructs its faithful to carve graven images, bow before them, offer prayers before them, and offer burnt offerings before them? For a Church as legalistic as the Catholic Church it’s amazing how obtuse you guys can be on this subject.

Deal with Ex 20:4 (repeated in Deu 5:8).

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

It isn’t just giving a graven image the worship due God, read the commandment, it is against making them, bowing to them, and worshipping them. All three don’t have to be met in order for it to be wrong.

Comparing the Bible to graven images and venerating them talk about spin…

If you have a minute please answer my question. If the 2nd Commandment states:

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

*****You shall not bow down *****to them or (notice the or here seperating bowing and worshiping as different things I take this to not allow veneration of statues clearly) worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

So here we have the commandment stating not to make them, not to bow to them (IMO clearly not allowing veneration because it differentiates bowing and worshipping as not necesarily the same thing), and worshipping them.

Now after reading that give me one good reason why your Church reads this same commandment then instructs its faithful to carve graven images, bow before them, offer prayers before them, and offer burnt offerings before them? For a Church as legalistic as the Catholic Church it’s amazing how obtuse you guys can be on this subject.

##** Images are not all disapproved by God - so why should we be more pious than God ? **

**Jesus Christ “is the image of the invisible God” according to Hebrews 1 even though this is a verbal contradiction of Deuteronomy 4. God has made an image of Himself, in Jesus - which is a far greater contradiction of Exodus 20 & its parallel in Deuteronomy 5, than making an image **that is lifeless. The Bible is a very vivid book, full of imagery - why is the imagery in Revelation not also wrong ? Or in Daniel 7, or the Psalms ?

• **What do you think of bowing to other human beings ? **
• And of titles such as “Your Majesty/Grace/Worship/Excellency/Highness” ?
• Are statues in public places against the Commandments ?
• And what about coinage, & other objects representing human beings or animals, such as banknotes, portraits, paintings, photographs, & models of things in or under or above the earth ?
• **Are dolls & teddy bears forbidden ? **

 

[IAmEdmund]

If I worship ANY statue, it is idolatry.

I am Catholic, and I do NOT worship statues.

However, I make it a point to light a candle at the little shrine in my church to the Lady of Guadeloupe. Why do I do this?.. is that HER in the portrait? No!.. but it is MY candle I’m lighting in front of her image as a concrete act of my devotion to her as the Mother of my Savior.

I also look at it this way…

When I was a protestant deacon/preacher, I preached and taught in a church devoid of ANY images, crucifixes, statues, portraits, banners, et all. NO one walking into that building, outside of the sign by the road, could have known what that place was for.

Now a practicing catholic, my church has wonderful portraits of saints, Mother Mary, a crucifix of our Lord Jesus Christ behind the altar. Stained glass windows depicting Jesus’ miracles… some of saints. We have a wonderful statue of Mother Mary and St. Anne! NO ONE walking into that church has ANY doubt what its there for.

As men and woman, created by and for God, we have the 5 senses, to be used for HIS glory. We are sensate creatures! I smell the incense, I hear the bells chime, I see the images… I taste the Blessed Sacrement! Why would God give us such sense and deny them at His altar? Should I be deaf, dumb and blind upon entering my church?

To be sure, there are those who misuse, misunderstand and misplace the intent of such iconography, imagery and statuary. If ever these things' become the thing worshiped’, THAT is idolatry. However, I see these things as my `catholic family album,’, images of those who have gone before… who are still alive and entreating our Lord on our behalf. Perhaps more specific and effecacious catechesis would do much to avert said failings.

 

[1ke]

The OP is twisting things in the title for a bit of a shock factor, my statement didn’t say thank the statue it said what it said. The Missal and I am going off of memory stated after recieving absolution and completing your penance if you can go to a stature of Jesus, kneel before Him and thank Him for His foregiveness.

Wow, what an excellent idea. I had not thought of this before, but think it’s a wonderful idea.

And I did do that and I felt absurd and ridiculous.

I am sorry you think thanking Jesus is absurd and ridiculous.

 

[chosen_people]

-]/-]

Both of which are false religions! Monotheistic or otherwise.

The Israelites certainly had statuatry in the Temple, when baking loafs of bread to offer in Temple sacrifice, they made loaves formed in the shape and size of a man no less.

What Christian Church do you find acceptable?

Could you please supply your source for bread in the temple sacrifice in the shape and size of a man?

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t matter what I think,

It most certainly does! you are the one whose soul is at stake.

why have the statue there in the first place?

It is a object that serves as a reminder. Not different materially than a heap of stones:

Gen 31:45-50
45 So Jacob took a stone, and set it up as a pillar. 46 And Jacob said to his kinsmen, “Gather stones,” and they took stones, and made a heap; and they ate there by the heap. 47 Laban called it Je’gar-sahadu’tha: but Jacob called it Galeed. 48 Laban said, “This heap is a witness between you and me today.” Therefore he named it Galeed, 49 and the pillar Mizpah, for he said, "The LORD watch between you and me, when we are absent one from the other.

With billions of people in the world and billions throughout history do I believe people have crossed the line into idolatry with Catholic statuary or scapulars, or medals, or murals?

Why should you pre-occupy yourself with this sins of others? Is not the log in your own eye sufficient pre-occupation for you?

Of course I do, anyway the 2nd commandment doesn’t require us to evaluate someones heart, we can see isolatry with our senses. God ordered the destruction of numerous cities without having the Israelites judge their hearts. The 2nd Commandment forbids us to make the graven images, bow down to them, and worship them. Three seperate things all of which are wrong, Catholics break two of them and the third is debatable,

It certainly seems to me that you are evaluating the hearts of Catholics, and finding them guilty of breaking God’s commandment. This may be news to you, but worship requires willful intention. One cannot “worship” a graven image unless one intends to do so. If one looks at an image of Jesus, and asks Jesus for forgiveness, then one is not “worshippping a graven image”. Maybe you cannot understand or accept that, and it is ok, but why condemn others who pray in this manner?

when I see people crowning a graven image with a crown of gold then parading it around, or an old woman talking with a statue or crying before it, it's tough for me to rationalize that not being idolatry based on the Biblical definition.

Why must you? Can’t you leave the matter to God? If you don’t feel comfortable decorating the statue with flowers, then don’t. Why judge and criticize others for the way they practice their faith?

Jews the folks who wrote the book would certainly call it idolatry and so would Muslims. So we have the only two monotheistic religions in the world believing it to be idolatry, coincidence? I don’t think so.

Well, the writers of that book also were commanded by God to make a graven image, through which God’s healing could be obtained, so I think you may be misunderstanding something somewhere.

Seriously read the 2nd Commandment, then try to comprehend why your Church encourages the faithful to make graven images, bow down before them, offer prayers before them, and burnt offerings before them? I can’t think of one good reason.

It is ok. It is not a requirement of the faith. If it does not commend itself to you, then refrain. You clearly don’t understand the practice of icons, and think that people are bowing down before the image, rather than the Diety that it represents. This is a very common misunderstanding.

 

[lukewarm]

I am sorry you think thanking Jesus is absurd and ridiculous.

It’s trickery and spin like this that convinced me that Catholic apologetics are very lacking on this subject. While a practicing Catholic and reading this board to convince myself it was O.K… All I would see is people using tactics like you just did to defend a practice I believe is quite clearly and unequivocally forbidden.

I’ve already responded to every objection clearly in this thread and others however to reiterate “worship” is not necessary to break the second commandment, the commandment seperates bowing and worshipping as two seperate things. IMO this clearly forbid giving the statue veneration or honor and also forbids worshipping them and creating objects for the purpose of worship or veneration.

The fact the Catholic Church instructs the faithful to carve graven images, bow before them, give burnt offerings before them, and pray before them to me is wrong, and in all my years a Catholic struggling with this I never read a decent apologetic on the subject.

To respond more is just going in cricles I’m not out to convince anyone, just to give a different take on the matter.

 

[planter654]

I found that last bolded sentence to be so re-gosh-darn-diculous that I think we need to start a new thread on this elsewhere. So that is what I did:

Thoughts fellow Catholics?

I totally agree. Satan is a great deceiver he crepts in slowly. this generations, know more about the Saints than about God. Worship God! That is found in the Book of Revelations! Anthing to slowly take us away from knowing God and worshipping God!

I know I and all would have to leave this world to get away from all the idols, but one place we should not nor ever see statues or idols is in our Catholic Church. this is a commandment from God. god does not changed he is the same today as yesterday.

Jesus said: Do not weep for me but for your childrens childrens.

God Bless

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It’s trickery and spin like this that convinced me that Catholic apologetics are very lacking on this subject. While a practicing Catholic and reading this board to convince myself it was O.K… All I would see is people using tactics like you just did to defend a practice I believe is quite clearly and unequivocally forbidden.

I’ve already responded to every objection clearly in this thread and others however to reiterate “worship” is not necessary to break the second commandment, the commandment seperates bowing and worshipping as two seperate things. IMO this clearly forbid giving the statue veneration or honor and also forbids worshipping them and creating objects for the purpose of worship or veneration.

Hi lukewarm,

I agree with you that the debating doesn’t serve much purpose and will just go in circles. I also agree with you that the title of this thread was dishonest and that the apologetics methods used by some people are aimed more at scoring ‘debate points’ than really addressing the concerns.

I just feel the need to put in my two cents because of my own journey where I also felt the church was violating the commandments but eventually came around, so I think I can understand your viewpoint better.

Basically, yes, Catholics strictly speaking break the commandments. But Jesus did too, at least according to the strict phariseeical(sp) interpretation. Most Christians do not follow the seventh-day sabbath as required by the commandment. But we honor the spirit of the commandment (also called the natural law behind the commandment) by setting one day per week aside as the “Lord’s Day”. So in general we follow the spirit of the commandments but not always the letter of the law. Another example is that stealing is Okay in rare situations like natural disasters or war if its necessary to feed yourself and your family.

For the first/second commandment we all separate the letter of the law “no graven images” from the spirit of the law “do not worship false gods” to some extent. All Christians allow art statues that aren’t related to worship, all Christians allow photography and paintings unrelated to worship. No Christians allow the worship of false gods or images. Catholics believe that when God became man and took on a visible form, it made the rule against images of god out-of-date. Now God has a physical appearance. It’s a judgement call where to draw the line between strict interpretation and following the intention of the rule.

Catholics are not required to have statues or kneel before them. For quite a few years I was a practicing catholic but wouldn’t participate in things like the veneration of the cross on Good Friday and I didn’t have any statues in my home and I never kneeled down at the statues at church. These things are optional. But my understanding of how natural law relates to the 10 commandments allowed me to accept that others could conceivably do this in a way that wasn’t wrong, so I didn’t mind worshipping with them.

Then one day I noticed just how life-like the statues at a beautiful 150-year-old church were, and how a 3-dimensional view can really help you imagine Jesus or Mary’s presence and imagine what it was like to be there. It’s a different style of art than a flat painting, and that’s all, but it has it’s place. For people who don’t really appreciate sculpture art, maybe they serve no purpose, but we shouldn’t be too quick to judge people who find them helpful.

 

[planter654]

Maybe because I actually know them and talk to them and share my faith with them, which means I don’t have to make any assumptions about what they believe and do. Assume anything that you please, but again you’d be dead wrong and that makes you look all the more silly. I know precisely who I am talking to when I pray before any image and I have no problems at all with using those images to help me focus on them.

Hello Militant.

Know this for certain God is where ever you are at! He is a living God do not insult him if you say you are Catholic then read you bible cover to cover it is ONE book! In the book of revelations it is cleary spoken by an Angel of God. How do we know what they are doing when they kneel before them, what do you think, Actions speak louder than words. Jesus never did that but knelt in the presents on the ground before God looking up, period!

Revelations Chapter 22 Verse 8

And I, John, am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and , I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, " Thou must NOT do that. I am a fellow servant of thine and of they brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. (Bible) “WORSHIP GOD”

So are we not all fellow servants of God who obey Him?
Are we not also to all to become “Holy Saints” for our Father is Holy?

Do you think the saints and martryers who gave their enter lives to suffer and serve, obey and even death for their great love of God, what us to honour them-- instead of God?

Is that why we are here to honour and worship each other and carve statues out of stone?

Saints are in heaven with God, would they be please and not sadden to see us us doing this, do they not want all of God’s children to repent and worship God only, for the salvation of our souls?

Who is sitting on the Throne? Who is sitting at his right Hand?
Who created us?
Even Jesus when told his mother and brothers and sisters were outside waiting for them, what did he say?

“All who believe in me and my word are my brothers and sisters and mothers!” whom was Jesus glorifiying and worshipping only first?

Jesus did not glorify anyone only God is Father! Not even Abraham, the friend of God, or Moses, but God and only God. They did not make statues of Abraham or Moses and “they spoke” with God and God with them, God choose them!

God Bless Worship God and god only

 

[LutheranDK]

Doesn’t matter what I think, why have the statue there in the first place? With billions of people in the world and billions throughout history do I believe people have crossed the line into idolatry with Catholic statuary or scapulars, or medals, or murals? Of course I do, anyway the 2nd commandment doesn’t require us to evaluate someones heart, we can see isolatry with our senses. God ordered the destruction of numerous cities without having the Israelites judge their hearts. The 2nd Commandment forbids us to make the graven images, bow down to them, and worship them. Three seperate things all of which are wrong, Catholics break two of them and the third is debatable, when I see people crowning a graven image with a crown of gold then parading it around, or an old woman talking with a statue or crying before it, it’s tough for me to rationalize that not being idolatry based on the Biblical definition. Jews the folks who wrote the book would certainly call it idolatry and so would Muslims. So we have the only two monotheistic religions in the world believing it to be idolatry, coincidence? I don’t think so.

Seriously read the 2nd Commandment, then try to comprehend why your Church encourages the faithful to make graven images, bow down before them, offer prayers before them, and burnt offerings before them? I can’t think of one good reason.

Running the risk of being called “Judas to the Protestant cause”, I will say this:

People from the Roman church do not worship the statues themselves, but He who this statue represents.
And therein lies all the difference between idolatry and piety. Because, yes, it WOULD be idolatry to worship the statue. But since that is not the case, the second commandment is not affected here. The second commandment, when read in context, speaks of the practise of actually WORSHIPPING statues and sculptures-

Secondly, your remark that Rabbinic Jews and Moslems are the only two monotheistic religions in the world shows that not only are you no longer in the Roman church - you are no longer Christian. There is only ONE, supreme, triune God; His name be blessed in Heaven and on Earth, from eternity to eternity.

 

[rpp]

Think it’s ridiculous all you want, if you own this missal (which Opus Dei uses):

images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.theologicalforum.org/marketplace/images/productphotos/1-890177-50-4.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.theologicalforum.org/marketplace/product_desc.asp%3FSku%3D1-890177-50-4%26Category%3D92&h=267&w=200&sz=69&hl=en&start=39&um=1&tbnid=kdd5LJP6vnvEeM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=85&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddaily%2Bmissal%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

It is right in the pages of guide to a good confession, I sold the Missal on E-Bay or I would give the page and paragraph.

The OP is twisting things in the title for a bit of a shock factor, my statement didn’t say thank the statue it said what it said. The Missal and I am going off of memory stated after recieving absolution and completing your penance if you can go to a stature of Jesus, kneel before Him and thank Him for His foregiveness. That’s what it said I would bet my life on it. And I did do that and I felt absurd and ridiculous.

In referring to the part in bold, I certainly hope that was hyperbole.

I say that because I happen own a copy of the missal you referenced. So I looked up the parts you referred to.

I found two references to Confession in the Missal.

Beginning on page 2145, the seven Sacraments are described. “Reconciliation or Penance” is described on the top half of page 2147. But this is a description of the sacrament only. The process is not explained here.

The section “Guide for a Good Confession” begins on page 2243. The first several pages review various methods for doing an examination of conscience. Page 2252 describes what you should be doing immediately before confession. 2253 has two versions of the Act of Contrition. Page 2254 describes what a penitent generally does during confession.

It is the bottom third of page 2254 that describes what a person should do after confession. This short section immediately precedes the the last section on Confession which describes the prayers used (by the priest) in the rite.

Since this section is short, I will reproduce in its entirety. All emphasis is in the original.

After Confession

• Give thanks to God for having forgiven you once again.
• Promptly and devoutly fulfil the penance given by the priest. Although you may receive Holy Communion even before performing your penance, it is advisable to do it as soon as possible.
• If you recall some serious sin that you forgot to tell, rest assured that it has been forgiven with the other, but be sure to include it in your next confession.

As you can plainly see, there was nothing about going to a statue and giving thanks.

Just to be sure, I spent some time looking at other sections on prayer, adoration, various devotions, prayer of saints, prayers to saints and many others. Even in the section which describes the Stations of the Cross, I found no reference of going to a statue to do anything. I found no reference to art depicting sacred people and events at all.

Many people often say about me that I have a memory like a steel… grate. Perhaps you memory is only a little better than mine. That is why I have to keep looking things up. Considering how badly this got messed up, perhaps you should reconsider the decisions you have made regarding this and related issues. Perhaps you have not learned things correctly. I know my faulty memory has lead me astray at times; perhaps yours is too.

 

[planter654]

Even little St Theresa said: “What mother would want to “shine brighter or greater” than her own children”?

Do you think our Dear Blessed Mother did not suffer greatly watching her beloved son suffer the worst agony of Death, for our salvation? Do you think she would be please to be seening us glorify her and the saints instead of her son. I know as a mother myself I would not, I would be deeply deeply sadden and would cause me pain.

When we glorify the son, Jesus Christ are we not also greatly honouring our Dear Mother? When we Worship God are not all in heaven celebrating sharing in that glory and honour? Do we not honour our Mother when we serve and obey her son?

There are many myths out there, trust in God, Worship God and accept his word as truth through his son our Lord jesus Christ! Read study the Bible the whole ONE book from beginning to Revelations!

I give thanks to God for giving us such a beautiful Mother to Love!
Imate… our Dear Mother she said Yes, to God! Humbly she said." I am a handmaid of the Lord do onto me according to your “WORD”. God said " She will be called “Blessed among all Women”.

If we want to give much love and obedience to our Dear Mother obey her son, "do what he ask! Was this not said at the wedding feast at Cana, by the Blessed Mother? The Bible is One BooK.

God Bless

 

[lukewarm]

RPP you’re wrong it is certainly in there, and I will buy that Missal again and photocopy the page for you and psot it here and return the Missal.

Mea culpa you’re right I read that in the “guide to make a good confession” at my commuter Parish Our Savior on Lexington Avenue, they have the guide at the Church and online, it is under “after confession”

oursaviournyc.org/how-to-make-a-good-confession#9

AFTER CONFESSION

Kneel down in front of the altar or of an image of Our Lord, and thank him for the gift of this confession. Renew your resolution and ask His help to overcome future temptations. With St. Dominic Savio repeat the prayer/commitment synthesized in the motto: Death, rather than sin.

If the penance given by the confessor consists in some prayers to be recited, say them quietly and devoutly.

The SIC] smile at Jesus with gratitude. Rise joyful and confident for the Lord has been merciful to you. Live for Him every minute of your life, and let everybody see how wonderful it is to serve the Lord.

 

[guanophore]

What I saw as rampant idolatry being promoted by the Church is hardly a small issue.

Had you considered that the problem lies in your perceptions, rather than the hearts of others?

I left for many reasons, most doctrinal, some having to do with the terrible behavior of Priests and Bishops, some had to do with the coldness of Catholic Parish life.

Gosh. It seems to me much more serious that you would separate yourself from Christ’s church over the sinful behavior of others.

Someone giv me one good reason why we should be making graven images, giving burnt offerings and prayers before them? At what point does “veneration” of the object cross that line? I would just assume remove it form the equation all together.

It sounds like you have! I can think of no good reason for you to engage in any of these devotional behaviors. Since you cannot tell the difference between worship of the Deity and worship of the statute, it would be safest for you to refrain.

God commanded the creation of the Cherubim for the Temple and Holy seat

Yet God commands the creation of many sacred objects for use in worship.

You are comparing one instance of creating a graven image that was ordered by God for His temple with Catholic Churches being laden with them,

Do you realize that a “burnt offering” is an animal sacrifice? I am assuming that you are speaking of candles, which are used as a memorial for prayer. Or are you saying that you are seeing Catholics coming into the parish and offering burnt animals to the statues?

How do you know who these people are talking to? Have you ever asked them? Don’t you see that it says much more about your own heart, and your own mind that you would assume they are committing idolatry?

This is the apologetic I find totally week…

To the weak in faith, all things are weak.

Not really sure to be honest the jury is still out, talking to them or weeping before them. Definitely not one that crowns statues and parades them around the streets.

Well, we crown and parade our soldiers, ball players, and politicians, who represent things of much less value…

I’m curious how you know what people are thinking or doing when they bow down before a statue and begin to pray?

Exactly! Yet you seem to be convinced yourself! What happens is that we project what is in our own hearts and minds, and judge their actions by ourselves. This is human nature. If you did it, you would feel like you were committing idolatry, because that is your perception.

Maybe not, but I assume you have offered burnt offerings, prayed before, bowed down before and venerated graven images correct? IMO that is sufficient for breaking the 2nd Commandment.

No, I have never burnt an animal in the church. I have lit candles! I bow down before God, and the signs in Church help to focus my mind on Him and those in His Kingdom.

I was invested in the Brown Scapular, I am not proud of that and feel absurd about it but at the time I thought it was a way for me to show my dedication, but actually it was puting my faith in objects rather than God and obeying His commandments and relying on God to save me at the end.

“Receive this blessed Scapular and beseech the Blessed Virgin that through Her merits, you may wear IT without stain. May IT defend you against all adversity and accompany you to eternal life. Amen.”

That is idolatry…

IT is a piece of wool and is good or absolutely nothing but itching the back of my neck…

glad you got over it. It is idolatry for one who does not worship the God behind the promise, or if one uses it superstitiously, which it sounds like you did.

All I would see is people using tactics like you just did to defend a practice I believe is quite clearly and unequivocally forbidden.

Is that why God told you to abandon the Church He founded?

I

've already responded to every objection clearly in this thread and others however to reiterate “worship” is not necessary to break the second commandment, the commandment seperates bowing and worshipping as two seperate things.

YOu are a victim of your cultural prejudice. Bowing in the East is as common as handshakes in the West. It has nothing to do with worship. Indeed, it is necessary to worship to break the commandment. In worship, we bow down before God. If we worship something or someone other than God, then it is idolatry.

IMO this clearly forbid giving the statue veneration or honor and also forbids worshipping them and creating objects for the purpose of worship or veneration.

OK, so don’t! Why find fault with others who worship differntly?

The fact the Catholic Church instructs the faithful to carve graven images,

Could you please show where this is taught in Catholicism? I think you cannot, because it isn’t. It is anti-Catholic propganda that has sucked you into bearing false witness against your neighbors. This is very dangerous for you.

To respond more is just going in cricles I’m not out to convince anyone, just to give a different take on the matter.

No, you will not. Worship requires intention, and since we intend worship only to God, we can;t worship a statue by “mistake”.

 

[planter654]

The firs temptation of Jesus Chapter 4 Verse 4 Mathew

But Jesus answer was to Satan " It is written, Not by bread aone does man Live, but by EVERY WORD that comes forth from the mouth of God".

Matthew-- Third Temptation of Jesus by Satan Verse 10

Begone, Satan! for it is “written,” " The Lord thy God shalt thou WORSHIP and him only shalt thou serve" Not statues or idols, do not carve them, period.

Chapter 15 Matthew Verse 3
Jesus
And why do you “transgress the commandment of God” because of “your tradition”?

Matthew Chapter 4 Verse 7 It is written further, “thou shalt not temp the Lord they God” God is a jealous God. So when we do such man made practices are we not doing this, turning our backs to God? Jesus also said " but you do not ask me? god is a living God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

The wedding at Cana when our dear Mother told Jesus there was no more wine. Did Jesus not say it was not his time yet. something like that. But what did he do? “First” he “obeyed” His heavenly Father first, and honoured his mother and father-- One of God’s commandment and did what his mother ask. First he pleased the Father, by being obedient to God’s commandment, by doing next honouring his mother and did what she asked him to do!

God Bless