That All May Be One

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I am interested in discussing the call Christ gave us in John 17 to be "one in us [in God and Christ and His Holy Spirit]. The shattering of that unity has been one of the great tragedies of the church, and I thought it would be interesting to discuss ways this shattered state of the Christian community might be healed over time. I consider myself both a Catholic and a Quaker - two very diametrically different kinds of believing communities. I see from the posts that many believers have moved around, finding strength and comfort in one place for a while, then in another. I would like to talk about it all in a spirit of patience and love.
 
I am interested in discussing the call Christ gave us in John 17 to be "one in us [in God and Christ and His Holy Spirit]. The shattering of that unity has been one of the great tragedies of the church, and I thought it would be interesting to discuss ways this shattered state of the Christian community might be healed over time. I consider myself both a Catholic and a Quaker - two very diametrically different kinds of believing communities. I see from the posts that many believers have moved around, finding strength and comfort in one place for a while, then in another. I would like to talk about it all in a spirit of patience and love.
The Church will be one in the next life. Here on earth, I do not believe it is possible. Division began even within Christ’s own circle. Judas was one of the twelve…and then…alas.
 
A Unity that cannot be broken exists in this life between those who have found new life in Christ and have been filled with his Spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us One in Christ, we are baptized into One Body by One Spirit…we may be separated by organizations and ministires…but I think Jesus had Something Greater in mind than simply being in one orgainziation…being one in the bond of love, kindness, mercy, gentleness, meekness and peace. “By THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES…that you love one another.”
 
A Unity that cannot be broken exists in this life between those who have found new life in Christ and have been filled with his Spirit. The Holy Spirit makes us One in Christ, we are baptized into One Body by One Spirit…we may be separated by organizations and ministires…but I think Jesus had Something Greater in mind than simply being in one orgainziation…being one in the bond of love, kindness, mercy, gentleness, meekness and peace. “By THIS SHALL ALL MEN KNOW YOU ARE MY DISCIPLES…that you love one another.”
And yet the Church–Christ’s visible Church has been fractured.
 
And yet the Church–Christ’s visible Church has been fractured.
The Unity of loving one another will tanscend any “fracture” between those who are One in Him and seek to live in the bond of peace with one another. Being in the same organization does not give us Unity…only in His Spirit is there real lasting Unity that actually makes a difference in how Christians deal with one another.

I think it was Paul who wrote "Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. "
 
The Unity of loving one another will tanscend any “fracture” between those who are One in Him and seek to live in the bond of peace with one another.
I understand the concept of the invisible Church. But there is a visible Church also. Christ gave us a visible Church which He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against.

Btw–I have heard that some Quakers do not consider themselves to be Christians and others do not believe in baptism or the Lord’s supper. This seems odd. I know very little about Quakers.
 
While the Bible instructs us to be one, it also condemns early heresies (Rev 2:6, for example) and instructs followers to reject heretics (in fact the Greek even uses the term “heretic”)(Tit 3:10).

So yes, we are called to be one, but those who seperate themselves from the Church through accepting unsound doctrine do not fall within this category.
 
While the Bible instructs us to be one, it also condemns early heresies (Rev 2:6, for example) and instructs followers to reject heretics (in fact the Greek even uses the term “heretic”)(Tit 3:10).

So yes, we are called to be one, but those who seperate themselves from the Church through accepting unsound doctrine do not fall within this category.
Yes.
 
I understand the concept of the invisible Church. But there is a visible Church also. Christ gave us a visible Church which He promised the gates of hell would not prevail against.

Btw–I have heard that some Quakers do not consider themselves to be Christians and others do not believe in baptism or the Lord’s supper. This seems odd. I know very little about Quakers.
If you define “visible church” as an organization…we disagree…if “visible church” is comprised of very real people who share new life in Christ and who work together regardless of the organization they represent…I too believe in a very very “visible church”…made one by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.

Some Friends do not wish to identify themselves as “Christians.” They have various reasons. Their faith is demonstrated on how they “mind the Light”…the Light Within, “that of God” in everyone of us is what binds us together.

We come together in “gathered Light” and share in His True Presence in our midst…“where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in their midst.”

It is the testimony of all Friends that the true baptism of which Paul speaks of is in the Holy Spirit. True communion is not only found in a ritual observance…but each meal…each exchange between two people is an opportunity for the grace of God to be experience and have communion with one another.

Some Evangelical Friends make accommodations for those who have a desire for water baptism and a ritual communion meal…but the testimony of Friends is that rituals and rites are not necessary for a deep spiritual life in Christ. Friends view life as a sacrament and a means of God bestowing grace…each time we offer water to one thirsty…or a meal to one hungry…we are participating in the Eucharist and serve Christ. Each time our hands move to help and heal they move in the “ritual gesture” of our faith.
 
If you define “visible church” as an organization…we disagree…if “visible church” is comprised of very real people who share new life in Christ and who work together regardless of the organization they represent…I too believe in a very very “visible church”…made one by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.
I mean the very visible Church that Christ gave to us. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. People organize and gather under a visible roof and worship the apostolic faith as it was handed down to us by Jesus Christ to the apostles to the bishops, priests and deacons. That is the visible Church.
Some Friends do not wish to identify themselves as “Christians.”
:confused:
It is the testimony of all Friends that the true baptism of which Paul speaks of is in the Holy Spirit. True communion is not only found in a ritual observance…but each meal…each exchange between two people is an opportunity for the grace of God to be experience and have communion with one another.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition have given us the beautiful sacraments of water baptism (which includes the Holy Spirit by the way) and Holy Communion of the Real Presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist.
Some Evangelical Friends make accommodations for those who have a desire for water baptism and a ritual communion meal.
Accomodations?
Friends view life as a sacrament and a means of God bestowing grace…each time we offer water to one thirsty…or a meal to one hungry…we are participating in the Eucharist and serve Christ. Each time our hands move to help and heal they move in the “ritual gesture” of our faith.
That is not the same thing as the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist that Christ gave to us to partake of in His holy Church. I will agree that life in a sense is a sacrament because the Church is a sacrament. And yes we are called to serve and love our neighbor. But Jesus Christ through Sacred Tradition and Holy Scripture has given us a great gift.

John 6:54-57
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
 
I understand your belief and position. If performing those rites and rituals bring you closer to Him, I think that is wonderful. For me, the One Baptism and One Church aren’t in question…I have been baptized into the Church by the Spirit…I will share with you in the joy of the faith in Christ we both share.
 
If performing those rites and rituals bring you closer to Him, I think that is wonderful.
I am “performing” nothing. I am receiving the holy sacraments of the Church as instituted by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
 
I am “performing” nothing. I am receiving the holy sacraments of the Church as instituted by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
If “receiving the holy sacraments of the church as instituted by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” makes your life kinder, gentler, more merciful and compassionate…then I rejoice with you in our common faith in Christ.
 
If “receiving the holy sacraments of the church as instituted by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ” makes your life kinder, gentler, more merciful and compassionate…then I rejoice with you in our common faith in Christ.
Thank you, friend.

The Holy sacraments of the Church not only help me in these areas, but assit me to fight against all the passions of this world.

Furthermore, It is the sacraments of the Church that manifest God’s saving energies in our lives. A life without the sacraments is like a life without God. One of the Church’s important functions besides preaching, teaching and caring for her children, is to make these sacraments available to her people.

God bless you on your journey.
 
Since we are quoting Christ in the thread topic, I’ll just add some more quotes in my own words.

Those who love me, follow my commandments.

Take, this is my Body.

Drink, this is my Blood.

Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood will have everlasting life.

[To Simon Peter] Tend my sheep… Feed my sheep.
 
If you define “visible church” as an organization…we disagree…if “visible church” is comprised of very real people who share new life in Christ and who work together regardless of the organization they represent…I too believe in a very very “visible church”…made one by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit.
From This Rock:

Let us examine the Church as we find it in the New Testament. What kind was it? Our Lord began by speaking of it as a kingdom that was at hand. “Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 4:17). When he sent the Twelve to preach to the Jews only he told them: “Going preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt. 10:7). We must not consider these phrases “the kingdom of God” and “the kingdom of heaven” indiscriminately as referring directly and immediately to the Church. They have various shades of meaning, but they may be summed up by saying that they refer to God’s rule in our hearts, the principles that separate us from the kingdom of the devil, the world and the flesh, the rule of grace and the Church as a divine society through which we are certain of attaining Christ’s spirit and winning the kingdom of heaven after death. This kingdom would be transferred from the Jews to the Gentiles: “Therefore I say to you, that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof” (Matt. 21:43). Christ’s Church was to replace the synagogue, which was an organized religious society. So we would expect the Church to be likewise an organized society. Many of our Lord’s parables make it clear that he was referring to the kingdom in this world and not only to the heaven of the future, for example, the parables of the sower, the wheat, the net, the leaven, and the mustard seed.


We must think particularly of the significance of an incident related by Matthew:If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between him and thee alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. And if he will not hear them, tell the Church. And if he will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican. (Matt. 18:15–17)Those words “tell the Church” are important. We might translate even more accurately “appeal to the Church.” You cannot appeal to what you cannot see. Therefore any idea that the Church consists merely of those who make an act of faith in Christ, whose number is known to God alone, cannot be sustained in the light of this text. Moreover, the Church is a visible body with jurisdiction. You cannot appeal to the Church in case of a dispute if the Church has no power to make a decision. Our Lord is definite: Those who deliberately reject the authority of the Church must be cut off from communion. That is what a Jew would have understood by “let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” There is no question here of the Church referred to being any other than the Church that Christ founded. This is a clear statement by our blessed Lord himself, God, of the authoritative power of his Church. Paul acted upon it in the case of the incestuous Corinthian (1 Cor. 5:1–8). Although he was absent he bade them carry out the sentence he had pronounced in his name and that of Christ. On this passage St. Thomas Aquinas wrote that the Corinthian “is thus separated from the society of the faithful, deprived of the sacraments and the suffrages of the Church, by all of which things a man is defended from the assaults of the devil.”
 
How wonderful to see the various responses to my post. Let me see what I can do to reply. I love it that I had responses from Orthodox, Quaker and Catholic. Starting more or less from the beginning:
  1. I cannot really know if the unity I think God wants us to have will be for this life or for the next, but I rather think it is about this life. Christ came that we “might have life and have it to the full” (John 10:10) And it is interesting when you go to that quote in John that it is followed by this: “. . .there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd” (10:16) So there are different “folds” in the world or in other worlds we know not of at all, but God knows them all and the important thing is that they listen for his voice.
  2. How can one be a Catholic AND and Quaker - I tell this story in a book I wrote back in the late 90s Leadings: A Catholic’s Journey Through Quakerismpublished by Baker Books in 2002** The best answer I have to this question is what I wrote there in the last chapter on pg. 139: “For me, being a Catholic means being in unity with the church that the apostles started, with the promise-bearing institution Christ charged with the mission of bringing God’s redemption forward in history. It doesn’t mean rejecting what I learned from Friends or the sense of God’s continuous presence in my life that Friends brought me to see. To me, the truths the Catholic Church defends and the truths that I found among Friends represent the two necessary poles of the Christian gospel–the corporate and outward (or sacramental) pole on the one side and the personal and inward pole on the other. These poles sometimes seem to be mutually exclusive and contradictory, but the truth is they are poles that need to be in constant contact and tension. It is the tension between them that makes the spiritual life dynamic–capable of stages, growth, and transformation.”
It is true that some Friends do not identify themselves as Christian. Some are in rebellion against what they fear is excess certainty, loss of patience and love in those who seem so certain of their religious creeds. Some just don’t know that the “inward light” they try to stay in touch with is Christ. There is frustration among Friends who are deeply Christian at some of this, just as there is frustration in the Catholic Church with some Catholics who don’t seem to really get what is most profound in Catholicism.
  1. The very long response I got (#19) seemed to focus on the legitimacy of the outward church that grew out of the community of followers Jesus had and that the apostles built. I strongly identify with that institutional entity but it took a long time for it to take on the form it has and it has changed a good deal over the years. I think the passage in Matthew that you use can have other meanings. There is some controversy over the use of the word “church” for the Greek ekklesia in Matthew 18:15-17. Some think the word “gathered or called community” gets at what existed then better. The Jerusalem and New Jerusalem bibles both translate it as follows:“But if he refuses to listen to these [the evidence of two or three witnesses], report it to the community; and if he refuses to listen to the community, treat him like a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matt.18:17) It is interesting you point to this because it is a very important passage to Friends (Quakers). It describes the way disagreements and animosities over faith issues - belief or behavior - should be dealt with. If there is a disagreement over something, you should try to work it out privately with the person. Only if this fails should you resort to taking people recognized as leaders to see if you can all work it out together Only when all this fails should the larger “community of believers” be resorted to and asked to separate the person from the community. But even if this happens, you should never forget how valuable and how precious that one is to God even though he/she is no longer part of the community.
Here for all of you is one of my favorite early Quaker quotes of Isaac Pennington: “Oh, be little, be little; and then thou wilt be content with little. And if thou feel now and then a check or a secret smiting–in that is the Father’s love; be not over-wise or over-eager in thy own willing, running, and desiring, and thou mayst feel it so and by degrees come to the knowledge of thy Guide, who will lead thee, step by step, in the path of life and teach thee to follow. . .Be still, and wait for light and strength and desire not to know or comprehend but to be known and comprehended in the love and life which seeks out, gathers, and preserves the lost sheep.”
 
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