That and which replacing who/whom?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Annie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Annie

Guest
Thiss seems like a fairly recent phenomenon, in which people write things like: the woman that was wearing a hat; the man which I saw on Main Street, and the like.

What is happening to who and whom? Is this some sort of weird ecological stunt to reduce humanity to the level of things now?

Is there any way to combat this blight upon our wonderful language? Because every time I read or hear it, I have that awful feeling similar to the one you get when you think there’s a step and there’s not, or vice versa.
 
Learn Latin,it’s more of a precise language. English is a Protestant language.
 
I’m still waiting for people to get “I” and “me” used correctly, when referring to yourself and others!

(Hint for everyone who’s forgotten English class: forget the other people, just use the personal pronoun, and does the sentence still sound correct?)

ie–That was the day my sister and __ went to the beach.
The dog likes my sister and ___, but hates my brother.
My friend and __ have the two top scores on that game!
 
I remember the zillion times my mother corrected us on that. And between you and __ remains tricky even after all that drilling!

But this is an old problem. I have only noticed the replacement of who with that and which over the past few months.

There is still time to fix this one!!!
 
Last edited:
It has been going on for sometime now. I think it is because people try to avoid whom.
 
That’s crazy! People avoided whom very easily for decades by simply ignoring its existence!

We do not need this new horrid solution!!!
 
“Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life”

“The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.”

KJV.

The usage of “that” to refer to people is not new, and is perfectly standard.
 
Annie said:
I have only noticed the replacement of who with that … over the past few months.
Click to expand...
You’re a bit slow on the uptake with “that”. It has been used this way for at least a thousand years.

All of the following sentences are correct:

The man who beat me was drunk.

The man that beat me was drunk.

The rock which hit me was large.

The rock that hit me was large.

“Who” is used exclusively with persons, “which” exclusively with things and groups of persons, and “that” with either persons or things.

In sentences of this type, I personally use “that” exclusively, and very rarely “who” or “which”. Microsoft’s grammar checker also uses this rule, so if you are using Word with the grammar checker on, it will correct “who” and “which” to “that”, even though they are not incorrect. Other writers like using “who” and “which” instead of “that”, and that’s perfectly fine, too. It’s a matter of taste and habit.

It is true that some 19th and early 20th century grammarians did not approve of “that” for persons, but their rule never caught on, and is now largely ignored.

However, the following sentence is incorrect:

The man which beat me was drunk.

Not very many native speakers of English would utter or write that sentence.
 
Last edited:
Yes.

I’m old, but I distinctly remember a grammar lesson where we learned “that” may defer to a person or thing. “Who” refers to people only.

“My sister, the one who went to Woodstock, enjoys crunchy granola.”

“My sister, the one that went to Woodstock, enjoys crunchy granola.”
 
Last edited:
There’s also the issue of Me vs Myself. It even made an appearance in a recent Mass reading…poor translation!
 
Argh!!!-

I guess @LittleFlower378 is right: this is how English became a Protestant language!

ETA: maybe this means I am a good Catholic who is clearly unfamiliar with the KJV?

ETA: oh… 😦 it’s also in the Douay Rheims…
 
Last edited:
@Gordon

I guess I have to defer to those old grammarians on this and learn to live with the awfulness.
 
Last edited:
I must say that me vs myself is occasionally very tricky.
 
Last edited:
Annie said:
learn to live with the awfulness.
Click to expand...
I can’t imagine what you could find awful about something that has been perfectly normal English since at least the time of Beowulf. Those old grammarians sometimes just made up silly rules with no basis in reality. This is a perfect example.
 
For some reason I never really noticed it until recently. I mean, I probably saw it in Beowulf or Shakespeare or the DR, but they did a lot of things we don’t do nowadays. (I really like their use of thee and thou!).

I guess I am just way behind the times!
 
Just to be clear, “that” in sentences of the type I listed above is a lot older than “who” or “which”. “Who” and “which” replaced the older “that”, rather than the other way around.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top