That is a sin of "Grave Matter"

[TEPO]

Our Church is THE pathway to salvation… But a pathway is something that must be travelled, how can we say that you must learn these things here before you begin the journey…? Why not let God show them these things while they’re on their way?

 

[Nita]

What I’m saying is that I’ve seen people who are totally turned off by the Church because they see it as a members-only-club… I’ve seen others who were interested, but turned away because of all the pre-requirements that are involved. …I’ve seen many people come on these forums and say that they feel “excluded”, by the Church… But it doesn’t have to be that way.

The Church isn’t just some casual social club. It’s a union of people based on belief in the same truths and practices (one faith, one baptism cf. Eph 4:5). The Catholic Church is open to anyone who wishes to join. To expect prospective members to learn the teachings of the Church they propose to join is hardly unreasonable. If some find it too bothersome (pre-requirements) to become members, then it obviously isn’t that important to them.

 

[Nita]

Our Church is THE pathway to salvation… But a pathway is something that must be travelled, how can we say that you must learn these things here before you begin the journey…?

And how will they know which direction to journey if they’re not willing to first take time to look at the map and learn the directions?

Why not let God show them these things while they’re on their way

That is how it works with babies and children. But from adults more is expected; they are not children.

 

[TEPO]

Disagreeing, in the sense that your reasoning/thinking comes to a different conclusion, is not in itself a sin if you accept the Church’s teaching and abide by it.
Now, as regards “making it known” - circumstances enter in.
Why are you making it known? Is it to try and persuade others to your point of view or to get them disatisfied with the Church teaching also? I would say that is sinful. I would say making it known around youth or people whose faith is weak would be wrong.

Canon Laws are not only about worldly rules – they are often rules that are tied into doctrinal matters as you will quickly see if you just read those concerning the Eucharist.

My disagreeing with these laws by no means constitutes any desire for me to disregard the laws that are currently in place. Catholics must follow them, especially clergy, however I do believe that we may be able to question them, and talk about them without falling into dissent… Just as long as we don’t question doctrine, which we must give our full assent.

The laws of the Church that come from the Holy Spirit at Pentecost are the infallible doctrines of the Church involving faith and morals, which require our full and complete obedience, to the very best of our abilities, while the Canons are the Church’s laws of the world which are laid out by the Church’s authority to bind and loosen -so they change with the times depending on whether more binding or loosening is needed. This is what I believe to be true anyways…

In the end, I hope that Catholics work together in this ecumenical age of the Church, to fulfill Gods plan, and if He puts a thought into our hearts, and we all agree that it is good, and the Pope agrees that it’s good, then we know for sure that it’s what God wants. So by telling these things, I’m putting it to the test, to see if this thought is in fact His will or simply mine.

 

[Nita]

… But that’s just it, if people could come to believe in all things Catholic, then they are Catholic! Its just that simple -a Catholic in Spirit** and in **deed is a Catholic! .

To believe in all things Catholic does not make one a Catholic.
To be Catholic “in deed” is to** do **what Catholicism teaches not just to say they believe it. Therefore it means they would do what the Church teaches and not receive Communion until they are received into the Church.

 

[TEPO]

And how will they know which direction to journey if they’re not willing to first take time to look at the map and learn the directions?
.

Doesn’t God guide all the hearts of men to Him? This is what we were all created for in the first place. If God has called His Church to ecumenism, as the Pope declares, then we have to have more trust in God with the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TEPO]

To believe in all things Catholic does not make one a Catholic.
To be Catholic “in deed” is to** do **what Catholicism teaches not just to say they believe it. .

You mean like Pelosi and Biden, and about half of the Church who support same sex marriage and the right to choose? They go to Mass on Sundays too. They receive the Eucharist. Why can they?

 

[thistle]

Doesn’t God guide all the hearts of men to Him? This is what we were all created for in the first place. If God has called His Church to ecumenism, as the Pope declares, then we have to have more trust in God with the power of the Holy Spirit.

God does not guide people to reject the teachings of his Church. It is Satan who does that.
You seem to think that the Church teachings (which ARE the teachings of Christ) do not matter as long as you feel what you are doing is right. Frankly, such a position is heretical.
Salvation is only through Christ and within his Church (The Catholic Church).

You are thinking like a Protestant.

 

[TEPO]

God does not guide people to reject the teachings of his Church. It is Satan who does that.
You seem to think that the Church teachings (which ARE the teachings of Christ) do not matter as long as you feel what you are doing is right. Frankly, such a position is heretical.
Salvation is only through Christ and within his Church (The Catholic Church).

You are thinking like a Protestant.

My point is that our Catholic Church is full of sinners who may never find salvation in the end! This is what the Saints have said, so we’re not the perfect community here on earth as we’d like to believe… But, the Catholic Church is the ONLY path to salvation, it is not in Protestantism, so if we were to open-up completely, we could regain some of the souls that were created for this end, which is Gods mercy.

Surely, you’re not claiming that God does not want His children to flock to His Holy Church. Surely you do not mean to say that we should make it as difficult as possible for them to learn Catholicism through Gods Grace at whatever pace that may be.

 

[thistle]

My point is that our Catholic Church is full of sinners who may never find salvation in the end! This is what the Saints have said, so we’re not the perfect community here on earth as we’d like to believe… But, the Catholic Church is the ONLY path to salvation, it is not in Protestantism, so if we were to open-up completely, we could regain some of the souls that were created for this end, which is Gods mercy.

Surely, you’re not claiming that God does not want His children to flock to His Holy Church. Surely you do not mean to say that we should make it as difficult as possible for them to learn Catholicism through Gods Grace at whatever pace that may be.

My goodness. You’re getting hysterical.

The truth never changes and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth in the Deposit of Faith entrusted to it. Catholic doctrine cannot change because it is the teaching of God. God wants everyone united in his Church but that does not mean changing doctrines to accommodate those who don’t believe. That is ridiculous. That is a comment from someone who wants to bend God to their will because they do not want to do God’s will.
Its up to Catholics to evangelise and try to get people to see the truth. If they don’t get it you don’t change and water down a doctrine till its a lie so that more people can come into the Church.

 

[JRKH]

My point is that our Catholic Church is full of sinners who may never find salvation in the end!

Sadly this is true

This is what the Saints have said, so we’re not the perfect community here on earth as we’d like to believe…

Well - I’ve never believed we were a “perfect community on earth” because, even as a child, I saw too many CINO’s (Catholic in name only)

But, the Catholic Church is the ONLY path to salvation, it is not in Protestantism, so if we were to open-up completely, we could regain some of the souls that were created for this end, which is Gods mercy.

The Church is ALREADY open.
I don’t understand where you get this idea that it is not…

Surely, you’re not claiming that God does not want His children to flock to His Holy Church.

No one is claiming this.

Surely you do not mean to say that we should make it as difficult as possible for them to learn Catholicism through Gods Grace at whatever pace that may be.

No one is claiming this either…
What do you see as being “as difficult as possible”?
In my area, we have RCIA every year - our Church’s sign right now says, “Interested in becoming Catholic call…”
Every year we have a CRHP month.
The catechism is widely available - even online…
Ministries like CAF, the Coming Home Network and many others offer ways for people to learn about the faith…

So - in what way are you thinking that the Church is making it, “as difficult as possible for them to learn Catholicism”?

Peace
James

 

[TEPO]

My goodness. You’re getting hysterical.

The truth never changes and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth in the Deposit of Faith entrusted to it. Catholic doctrine cannot change because it is the teaching of God. God wants everyone united in his Church but that does not mean changing doctrines to accommodate those who don’t believe. That is ridiculous. That is a comment from someone who wants to bend God to their will because they do not want to do God’s will.

This is not true. The Church used to sell indulgences for a high price, but the ever-changing Canon law eliminated that, and now indulgences are not sold.

Its up to Catholics to evangelise and try to get people to see the truth. If they don’t get it you don’t change and water down a doctrine till its a lie so that more people can come into the Church.

Show me where I have said anything even remotely close to this. Because you’re piling doctrines and Canons into the same category as unchangeable when one actually does change and the other doesn’t.

 

[TEPO]

The Church is ALREADY open.
I don’t understand where you get this idea that it is not…

What do you see as being “as difficult as possible”?
In my area, we have RCIA every year - our Church’s sign right now says, “Interested in becoming Catholic call…”
Every year we have a CRHP month.
The catechism is widely available - even online…
Ministries like CAF, the Coming Home Network and many others offer ways for people to learn about the faith…

So - in what way are you thinking that the Church is making it, “as difficult as possible for them to learn Catholicism”?

Peace
James

I think it’s easy to learn Catholicism, I just don’t like the way the Church has Apprentices (Catechumens). It’s like joining a secret society in my opinion. I understand that this used to be good a long time ago, but I think in this age it has become a barrier.

All I’m saying is that why not let a person become Catholic instantly? What harm could come from it?

 

[TEPO]

…I’m only talking about Baptized Christians here, who have already been received into the Sacramental life. Of course someone who has never been Baptized would need to be initiated through a Baptismal ceremony.

 

[Nita]

I think it’s easy to learn Catholicism, I just don’t like the way the Church has Apprentices (Catechumens). It’s like joining a secret society in my opinion. I understand that this used to be good a long time ago, but I think in this age it has become a barrier.

Secret societies are precisely that - secret. There’s nothing secret in a class for catechumens (RCIA). Those classes are open for anyone to attend and hear what’s being taught. There’s nothing secret about the Mass; the doors are open for anyone to attend and see what takes place and hear what is said.

All I’m saying is that why not let a person become Catholic instantly? What harm could come from it?

To “become Catholic” means to be a Catholic. As you noted earlier that means to be one in spirit and in deed. That requires studying what the Church professes and believes so one can choose whether or not he wants to accept or reject those teachings. If he chooses to reject them, then that is rejecting Catholicism. If he accepts them, then he must make the freely willed choice to join the Church.

I’m wondering if you realize just how profound and holy the Mass and the Sacraments are. They are not something to be taken lightly. To treat them as something less than what they are is not right – and if done knowingly, is very sinful. It is impossible for people who do not know and accept what the Church teaches about them, to properly respect them.

 

[Nita]

…I’m only talking about Baptized Christians here, who have already been received into the Sacramental life. Of course someone who has never been Baptized would need to be initiated in some other way.

Most baptized non-Cathollic, non-Orthodox, Christians don’t even know what “Sacramental life” refers to. Keep in mind that one of the main purposes of our 7 Sacraments is to bestow sanctifying grace - either initially, or to restore it, or to increase it. Many, if not most, non-Catholic Christians have a totally different concept of what constitutes saving/sanctifying grace.

 

[JRKH]

I think it’s easy to learn Catholicism,

Well you are a lot smarter than I am…

I just don’t like the way the Church has Apprentices (Catechumens).

I do…In fact, I’m thinking about going through RCIA one of these years even though I was born and raised Catholic…

It’s like joining a secret society in my opinion.

Nope - It’s simply a short course of about 6 months…If that is a big deal then perhaps the person is not really called to salvation…Remember the Parable of the Sower and the Seeds…
Also - consider this…
People who immigrate to the US and wish to become citizens go through a process of many steps…including study and taking a test before being “sworn in”
Would you consider the United States to be a “Secret society”???

I understand that this used to be good a long time ago, but I think in this age it has become a barrier.

I disagree. Earlier you commented:
My point is that our Catholic Church is full of sinners who may never find salvation in the end!
So it seems to me that if anything we need better and more intense teachings at all levels.

All I’m saying is that why not let a person become Catholic instantly? What harm could come from it?

What do you intend to allow this “instant Catholic” to do? Sure - I could see allowing for a quicker baptism…but what about confession, communion and confirmation?
Even a child born into the faith must undergo specific catechesis for these things…when I was in School we spent the entire School year preparing for confession and first communion and another year preparing for confirmation.
The person who enters through RCIA need only spend about 6 months total in preparation to receive all three (or four if baptism is also necessary)
Which brings up a very important point.
The person who is baptized by the trinitarian form is, in essence, already in the Church. So their time as a catechuman is not really to “become Catholic” so much as it is to come into “full communion” with the Church and to prepare them to receive properly and with full understanding the other sacraments of initiation.
Just as any Catholic child does in religion class.

Peace
James

 

[TEPO]

To “become Catholic” means to be a Catholic. As you noted earlier that means to be one in spirit and in deed. That requires studying what the Church professes and believes so one can choose whether or not he wants to accept or reject those teachings. If he chooses to reject them, then that is rejecting Catholicism. If he accepts them, then he must make the freely willed choice to join the Church.

I’m wondering if you realize just how profound and holy the Mass and the Sacraments are. They are not something to be taken lightly. To treat them as something less than what they are is not right – and if done knowingly, is very sinful. It is impossible for people who do not know and accept what the Church teaches about them, to properly respect them.

So basically, RCIA is about protecting the Church and the Sacraments from people. Also it is a weeding out process to ensure that those who want to join will not change their mind later.

 

[TEPO]

What do you intend to allow this “instant Catholic” to do? Sure - I could see allowing for a quicker baptism…but what about confession, communion and confirmation?
Even a child born into the faith must undergo specific catechesis for these things…when I was in School we spent the entire School year preparing for confession and first communion and another year preparing for confirmation.
The person who enters through RCIA need only spend about 6 months total in preparation to receive all three (or four if baptism is also necessary)
Which brings up a very important point.
The person who is baptized by the trinitarian form is, in essence, already in the Church. So their time as a catechuman is not really to “become Catholic” so much as it is to come into “full communion” with the Church and to prepare them to receive properly and with full understanding the other sacraments of initiation.
Just as any Catholic child does in religion class.

Peace
James

I was thinking more along the lines of having year-round RCIA classes and retreats readily available and waiting for the huge masses of converts that would be flooding the Churches as soon as the media caught wind of the remarkable turn-around that the Church had made… In the confessionals, the Priests would order a few classes as penance. I was just thinking that it would be better to get people in the doors and registered first, and then worry about education after that.

…but I’m beginning to think that I am probably wrong now. I’m not too proud to admit my mistakes, but it was good to get it off my chest anyways.

 

[Nita]

So basically, RCIA is about protecting the Church and the Sacraments from??? people.

??? Whatever gave you that idea.
RCIA is about teaching people the truths of the Church; the truths about the Sacraments; inviting them to join our Church. It’s about sharing Catholic/Church truths with others.
“Sharing with”, not “protecting from”.

Also it is a weeding out process to ensure that those who want to join will not change their mind later.

No. It’s about making sure they make an informed choice in the first place.