That Old Freemason Question...

[Brother_Steve]

Two things:

1.) the Pope was not necessarily condemning the things you’ve pointed out, rather he was assessing the situation openly. Something the Church is good at -being open.

2.) the Popes main problem was that Spirituality would suffer under a new system that divided the Church and the State… He was correct.

…but really, the Pope and politics have little to do with freemasonry. The lodges only serve to make men “better”, and have NOTHING to do with common “goals”, or “ideals” such as the organization of societies… At least that’s what every Mason has told me, and Im sure they were being honest with me.

So surely you’re not claiming that the Masons are responsible for freedom just because a few people who fought for freedom happened to also be Masons… There were many others my friend, many others including Catholics.

Two things first let not assume what the Popes thinking was but only what he wrote was.Secondly He made a condemnation of Masons for what he believed they stood for. Freedom of Religion, democracy, separation of Church and State as well as public education.

Now lets be honest, the Church or rather its leadership has had issues with being open.
The handling of the various scandals is more than enough evidence to make my point.
In fact Archbishop of Dublin Ireland has just been one of the most out spoken critics of the way the Church has keep secret its issues.It has only been in the last ten years that the Church has been making any attempt to be more open.

But the Pope failed to cite the historic problems with politics and religion which we can see cause wars that damaged parts of Europe.

Lets be honest, more that just “a few people” that were Masons were involved with the founding of the U.S. Are they solely responsible for the freedoms American enjoy… of course not! Yet the fraternity does support and encourage the ideals of those freedoms.

Its is sad that there is this separation and issues between Catholics and those that are Masons. I am a Mason and yet I an a Deacon in my church (Anglo Catholic), I find that there is nothing in the fraternity that hinders my Faith, Or my belief in the seven sacraments, the real presence, or salvation through Jesus Christ Alone.

 

[gamewell45]

Masonry is made to destroy Catholicism.

We’ll both have to agree to disagree on this I suppose. Go in peace.

 

[april32010]

Cardinal DeNardo in the archdiocese of Houston already allows Catholic Freemasons to receive the sacraments but they cannot be lay ministers within the Church. A very open minded and guarded approach.

how can this be?
ewtn.com/library/answers/camason1.htm

The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church’s prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.

 

[TEPO]

Its easy to just post idle rumors … but now prove it my friend. Cite Masonic Grand Lodge support for your post.

Prove what? I was asking you a question, and I honestly cannot understand why you immediately take a defensive position, rather than do the research for your own sake and for the good of your Christian faith.

Seriously, i do understand that Masons are trained not to ask questions… Just like the whole play/ enactment that involves Hiram Abiff in the first place… Those who sought after more answers became the “murderers” of Hiram Abiff. This is a very sad truth about Freemasonry.

It might help Masons such as yourself to actually delve into the roots of Freemasonry, by understanding the different “kinds” of Freemasons such as the Travelling Masons and the others like it. Look into the “Legends” of Freemasonry and discover where the word Tubalcane comes from, that you yourself have surely heard and used since you became “illuminated”. Surely, you do not believe anything the Lodge tells you about God… Surely you believe ONLY what your Church teaches you about God.

 

[TEPO]

It seems off indeed. How would a Cardinal or a Priest even know if someone were a Freemason? Surely they couldn’t know, because even in the Confessional, there can be no forgiveness if a Mason does not state that he has renounced his membership in the Lodge, and by knowing this, a Freemason would surely not bother to try to confess in the first place. Therefore a Mason would never be able to receive communion unless he deliberately intended to insult the glory of God the Father Himself.

 

[Traditionalism]

We’ll both have to agree to disagree on this I suppose. Go in peace.

“Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.” - Matthew 10:34

 

[Brother_Steve]

Prove what? I was asking you a question, and I honestly cannot understand why you immediately take a defensive position, rather than do the research for your own sake and for the good of your Christian faith.

Seriously, i do understand that Masons are trained not to ask questions… Just like the whole play/ enactment that involves Hiram Abiff in the first place… Those who sought after more answers became the “murderers” of Hiram Abiff. This is a very sad truth about Freemasonry.

It might help Masons such as yourself to actually delve into the roots of Freemasonry, by understanding the different “kinds” of Freemasons such as the Travelling Masons and the others like it. Look into the “Legends” of Freemasonry and discover where the word Tubalcane comes from, that you yourself have surely heard and used since you became “illuminated”. Surely, you do not believe anything the Lodge tells you about God… Surely you believe ONLY what your Church teaches you about God.

To prove your entire last post on what you say Masons teach, And where did you get the idea that Masons do not ask questions. I find it funny to that anti masons have this idea that Masons do not know what the fraternity teaches or that they have not read on their own fraternity, That’s the basic error in all anti arguments. Since the lectures of each degree specifically explains what the degree that the man just when through. The sad truth is people like to continue the disinformation about Masons without ever reading what a Grand Lodge says Masonry is about. Its the same as asking every protestant to explain what the catholic church is about.

Another thing that you are totally wrong about is that the lodge says anything about who or what God is. Masonry does not teach any dogma, doctrine or theology, period!
The only thing that Masons follow are what the Grand Lodge (by the local lodge) is what the Fraternity teaches OFFICIALLY.
Not what this or that authors says the so called “Legends of Freemasonry” are.

 

[TEPO]

To prove your entire last post on what you say Masons teach, And where did you get the idea that Masons do not ask questions. I find it funny to that anti masons have this idea that Masons do not know what the fraternity teaches or that they have not read on their own fraternity, That’s the basic error in all anti arguments. Since the lectures of each degree specifically explains what the degree that the man just when through. The sad truth is people like to continue the disinformation about Masons without ever reading what a Grand Lodge says Masonry is about. Its the same as asking every protestant to explain what the catholic church is about.

Another thing that you are totally wrong about is that the lodge says anything about who or what God is. Masonry does not teach any dogma, doctrine or theology, period!
The only thing that Masons follow are what the Grand Lodge (by the local lodge) is what the Fraternity teaches OFFICIALLY.
Not what this or that authors says the so called “Legends of Freemasonry” are.

You know I just hate secrets? I think the majority of people do. Maybe Freemasonry’s secrets are just basic common logic wrapped up as the biggest hoax in modern history. Or maybe Masons just enjoy teasing people and watching their reactions… it could be for all I know.

At this point, I just really don’t care anymore. I’m here in Vegas right now, I just drove past the pyramid so that’s why I thought of this thread.. Anyways, I’m finished here… I’m tired of this… I’m tired of believing in things. I don’t know what to believe in anymore. OMG, I feel like Anniken Skywalker.

 

[thistle]

You know I just hate secrets? I think the majority of people do. Maybe Freemasonry’s secrets are just basic common logic wrapped up as the biggest hoax in modern history. Or maybe Masons just enjoy teasing people and watching their reactions… it could be for all I know.

At this point, I just really don’t care anymore. I’m here in Vegas right now, I just drove past the pyramid so that’s why I thought of this thread.. Anyways, I’m finished here… I’m tired of this… I’m tired of believing in things. I don’t know what to believe in anymore. OMG, I feel like Anniken Skywalker.

Believe in Christ and his Church, the one he established and entrusted with the Deposit of Faith and gave authority to teach in matters of faith and morals.

 

[TEPO]

Believe in Christ and his Church, the one he established and entrusted with the Deposit of Faith and gave authority to teach in matters of faith and morals.

Because of you, I’m having trouble now. Thanks for nothing.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You know I just hate secrets? I think the majority of people do. Maybe Freemasonry’s secrets are just basic common logic wrapped up as the biggest hoax in modern history. Or maybe Masons just enjoy teasing people and watching their reactions… it could be for all I know.

At this point, I just really don’t care anymore. I’m here in Vegas right now, I just drove past the pyramid so that’s why I thought of this thread.. Anyways, I’m finished here… I’m tired of this… I’m tired of believing in things. I don’t know what to believe in anymore. OMG, I feel like Anniken Skywalker.

If you don’t know what to believe, you are at a perfect stage for the Lord to bring you to the next level of understanding.

Remember that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and vice versa. So you first have to break the structure (old wineskins) that is the wisdom of man, and God can fill you with true wisdom, which is knowledge of the secrets of our kingdom. And I’m here to tell you, it’s not for after we’re dead – it’s NOW. Woo Hoo! Partayy!

Alan

 

[thistle]

Because of you, I’m having trouble now. Thanks for nothing.

That’s not very charitable but I will pray for you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If you don’t know what to believe, you are at a perfect stage for the Lord to bring you to the next level of understanding.

Remember that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and vice versa. So you first have to break the structure (old wineskins) that is the wisdom of man, and God can fill you with true wisdom, which is knowledge of the secrets of our kingdom. And I’m here to tell you, it’s not for after we’re dead – it’s NOW. Woo Hoo! Partayy!

Alan

I would like to attach some Scripture to my claims about letting go of what you know. If you think you know something, you don’t know as you ought to know … so when you admit you don’t know anything, you are ready to move to the next step. The next step is pure love, which in turn heals the thinking.

1 Cor 8
1 Now in regard to meat sacrificed to idols: we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up.
2 If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if one loves God, one is known by him.
4 So about the eating of meat sacrificed to idols: we know that “there is no idol in the world,” and that “there is no God but one.”
5 Indeed, even though there are so-called gods in heaven and on earth (there are, to be sure, many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things are and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and through whom we exist.
7 But not all have this knowledge. There are some who have been so used to idolatry up until now that, when they eat meat sacrificed to idols, their conscience, which is weak, is defiled.

Remember what an idol is. It’s something whose significant is entirely imagined. It doesn’t have to be physically real, or even an object. An idol can be a hard-and-fast rule that we follow, rain nor shine, day or night. If the only reason we follow a rule is that the rule is “important” to us, then that rule itself is an idol.

Like “step on a crack, break your mother’s back.” It’s a superstition, but I still catch myself avoiding cracks from time to time. So my flesh is still following the idol, which in this case is founded in superstition. I’m not superstitious, but the effects have left traces of that saying, in my behavior. I wonder if there was a time when I was little, that I thought it might be true – and thus it took on a sort of permanent importance in my mind?

Alan

 

[TEPO]

If you don’t know what to believe, you are at a perfect stage for the Lord to bring you to the next level of understanding.

Remember that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and vice versa. So you first have to break the structure (old wineskins) that is the wisdom of man, and God can fill you with true wisdom, which is knowledge of the secrets of our kingdom. And I’m here to tell you, it’s not for after we’re dead – it’s NOW. Woo Hoo! Partayy!

Alan

THIS

(I like your style)

 

[thistle]

If you don’t know what to believe, you are at a perfect stage for the Lord to bring you to the next level of understanding.

Remember that the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and vice versa. So you first have to break the structure (old wineskins) that is the wisdom of man, and God can fill you with true wisdom, which is knowledge of the secrets of our kingdom. And I’m here to tell you, it’s not for after we’re dead – it’s NOW. Woo Hoo! Partayy!

Alan

If you don’t know what to believe then the perfect place to start is to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contains the teachings of the Church which are the teachings of Christ. The CCC has footnotes to Scripture and other Church documents which underpin the teachings. Anything that you don’t understand in the CCC and related documents you can talk to a priest or come to these forums and pitch a question.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

If you don’t know what to believe then the perfect place to start is to read the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contains the teachings of the Church which are the teachings of Christ. The CCC has footnotes to Scripture and other Church documents which underpin the teachings. Anything that you don’t understand in the CCC and related documents you can talk to a priest or come to these forums and pitch a question.

I’m talking about moving into the next part of spiritual life. Many people experience this sort of a down before such a transition.

Alan

 

[thistle]

I’m talking about moving into the next part of spiritual life. Many people experience this sort of a down before such a transition.

Alan

How is that a belief? The Church teaches what must be believed. Its in the CCC.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

How is that a belief? The Church teaches what must be believed. Its in the CCC.

The CCC must clearly advocate being born of the spirit, or it will be at odds with the gospel of John. This is one of Jesus’s terms for the transition. For some reason Catholics don’t think being “born again” is much to talk about, although Jesus said very clearly, that this IS an imperative.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ "

One primary mechanism for my getting to and making the transition, under guidance from SDs, has been contemplative prayer. If you do not engage in contemplative prayer then are going against the advice of a CCC that prayer life SHOULD involve unitive, or contemplative, prayer. So if you don’t do it, then you are not in line with the CCC yourself.

And if you haven’t read the Cloud of the Unknowing, or anything by the doctors of the Church talking about mysticism such as St. Teresa of Avila or St. John-of-the-Cross, then you have no basis on which to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

This is not like other theology. You don’t learn this in a classroom sitting up and paying attention or reading books or arguing or figuring things out. You learn it by shutting your mouth, allowing your overactive brain to become quiet, and allowing God to change you. Over time, if God sees fit, He will give you contemplation, and you will be renewed. When you start understanding all of this, then come back and we’ll have a discussion about how to become born again – and thus enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those who think that maybe they’ll be happy in heaven because they die well, have missed the whole point of Jesus’s teachings about the kingdom, and IMO are hampered in their spiritual growth by exceedingly Low Expectations.

Basically if you are a part of the Body of Christ that doesn’t get involved in mystical study and growth, then I thank you for being the one who sacrifices your earthly life to be that part, because now that I’ve tasted and seen the goodness of the Lord, my faith is turning to sight and things make more sense now. I feel sorry for people who don’t know they are receiving Christ in the Eucharist, except by theology and only in their head. I guess I have to accept that not everyone wants to be holy – sometimes they want to be workers behind the scenes and let everyone else enjoy themselves.

And as far as what we MUST believe, those who chase after that without doing the mystical part have a problem in that:

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So you can focus on worrying about what we’re All Supposed To Believe, while I’m working on how to love. Deal?

Alan

 

[thistle]

The CCC must clearly advocate being born of the spirit, or it will be at odds with the gospel of John. This is one of Jesus’s terms for the transition. For some reason Catholics don’t think being “born again” is much to talk about, although Jesus said very clearly, that this IS an imperative.

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”
4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother’s womb and be born again, can he?”
5 Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
6 What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
7 Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’ "

One primary mechanism for my getting to and making the transition, under guidance from SDs, has been contemplative prayer. If you do not engage in contemplative prayer then are going against the advice of a CCC that prayer life SHOULD involve unitive, or contemplative, prayer. So if you don’t do it, then you are not in line with the CCC yourself.

And if you haven’t read the Cloud of the Unknowing, or anything by the doctors of the Church talking about mysticism such as St. Teresa of Avila or St. John-of-the-Cross, then you have no basis on which to tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about.

This is not like other theology. You don’t learn this in a classroom sitting up and paying attention or reading books or arguing or figuring things out. You learn it by shutting your mouth, allowing your overactive brain to become quiet, and allowing God to change you. Over time, if God sees fit, He will give you contemplation, and you will be renewed. When you start understanding all of this, then come back and we’ll have a discussion about how to become born again – and thus enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those who think that maybe they’ll be happy in heaven because they die well, have missed the whole point of Jesus’s teachings about the kingdom, and IMO are hampered in their spiritual growth by exceedingly Low Expectations.

Basically if you are a part of the Body of Christ that doesn’t get involved in mystical study and growth, then I thank you for being the one who sacrifices your earthly life to be that part, because now that I’ve tasted and seen the goodness of the Lord, my faith is turning to sight and things make more sense now. I feel sorry for people who don’t know they are receiving Christ in the Eucharist, except by theology and only in their head. I guess I have to accept that not everyone wants to be holy – sometimes they want to be workers behind the scenes and let everyone else enjoy themselves.

And as far as what we MUST believe, those who chase after that without doing the mystical part have a problem in that:

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So you can focus on worrying about what we’re All Supposed To Believe, while I’m working on how to love. Deal?

Alan

“Born again” means being baptised with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[TEPO]

I think Allen might be suggesting that there is a type of spiritual transformation involving Grace, where as thistle is stressing obedience through the law… This is interesting.