The ‘I’m Not Ready to Get Married’ Trap

[EasterJoy]

Great analysis! The idea of keeping options open, and for sure the lack of self-giving love fit right in to what I have seen.

We ought to be quick to point out that someone who is hesitating to marry because they believe their life of self-gift might be to the religious life, the single life, or in marriage to a different person is within the ideal. No one should push themselves into a marriage in order to prove to themselves that they are Christlike.

There is an old Jewish maxim, attributed to Hillel:
If I am not for myself, who is for me?
And when I am for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

This is not a bad saying. The answer to the question of the first line is God, obviously, but even God cannot guide you to your call if you do not do the work to discern it for yourself. If you are making your discernment for yourself only, then you do not belong to God.

I like this quote from Pope St. John Paul II even better, part of his homily on the occasion of the canonization of St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross in 1998:

*The modern world boasts of the enticing door which says: everything is permitted. It ignores the narrow gate of discernment and renunciation. I am speaking especially to you, young Christians, particularly to the many altar servers who have come to Rome these days on pilgrimage: Pay attention! Your life is not an endless series of open doors! Listen to your heart! Do not stay on the surface, but go to the heart of things! And when the time is right, have the courage to decide! The Lord is waiting for you to put your freedom in his good hands.
*

If you are not ready for marriage, then what? The life of service is not to be put off endlessly. When St. Paul advocated that Christians remain as he was, he meant it to free them to serve as radically as he served. If you are not serving anyone, if you are not at the command of the demands of charity, even your virginity isn’t doing anyone any good.

 

[EasterJoy]

I would argue strongly that the majority of Catholics seeking marriage are not actually prepared and ready for marriage. Most people have zero idea of what marriage means in the Catholic Church and what being married entails. We need to bring back reading the exhortation before marriage like in the good ol’ days.

A one-time exhortation is not nearly so useful as to be surrounded by married couples living it. In our times, however, many people have been scarred into toxicity. Having been raised with and surrounded by toxic relationships, they communicate in very harmful ways, they don’t know how to recognize the harm they’ve done, let alone how to attempt to repair it, and so yes, they destroy their own attempts at marriage from the beginning without ever realizing what they’re doing.

I am not the most saddened by the number of people whose marriages are declared null who perhaps don’t deserve so much latitude in the assessment of their situation by outsiders. I am the most saddened by those who deserve all of that and more. I cannot blame someone who looks at a relationship tainted by that kind of toxicity who hesitates to try to repair the toxicity with a commitment to marriage. They are absolutely right. What they do not realize is that the toxicity is in their habitual ways of dealing with conflict and complaints, not in finding “the right person” with whom they will magically never have a conflict.

Alas, I have seen couples who try to cure their relationship problems with a marriage commitment. It just doesn’t work. If they never cure the relationship problem directly, the attempt at marriage is doomed from the beginning.

And yes, I think some people are lulled into believing that toxic speech is not only OK but entertaining by the television shows. There are lots of “zingers” but rarely any admission of what delivering and receiving that kind of talk actually does to a couple or a family in real life. A great deal of “self advocacy” advice falls into the same error.

 

[Sarcelle]

A lot of men do not want to get married. Ever.

There is an acronym floating around for these men called MGTOW. Men Going There Own Way.

They see the deck stacked against them in terms of divorce. In the secular world, women file for divorce far more often then men and when they go to court…they lose absolutely everything.

It’s an epidemic and a lot of men are opting out of it.

Nothing beyond hookup relationships with women. Nothing long term and no moving in together or mixing finances.
They don’t want to give women any indication of wanting to get married.

Yes. I have heard about this group. If they don’t want to get married, they should not get married. My own parents have told me that if they had to do it over again, they would not have gotten married.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Eh…I’m really unconvinced by this “movement” that pops up here on CAF every few months. A quick Google shows only 12K ‘likes’ on FB, it’s a small subreddit, and most of their discussions seem to revolve around women - mgtow is the last resort after a lifetime of rejection. They boast about not being successful professionally and complain that women have never given them the time of day. It’s basically an internet subculture devoted to whining. I really don’t believe this is or will impact mainstream society in any way. It seems to come up here disproportionately often given it’s lack of significance.

I don’t think the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement, however big or small it is, is necessarily about impacting mainstream society at all. As the name suggests the movement is simply men making a decision to live life on their terms. To this end they are deciding to opt out of social contracts such as marriage. A psychologist named Dr. Helen Smith wrote a book about this phenomena called Men on Strike. It’s worth a read. Although I myself still hope to find a suitable marriage partner, I can’t honestly say that I don’t have a certain amount of sympathy for men who are part of such a movement. They have come to the conclusion that in a society dominated by feminism, marriage is a game that offers very high risk and very little reward. So they simply decide not to play. Maybe some of the men who identify with this movement are “whiners” but if you are going to play the whine card against MGTOW it is only fair that you to do the same for feminists/SJWs, because they’ve been whining for decades.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I don’t think the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement, however big or small it is, is necessarily about impacting mainstream society at all. As the name suggests the movement is simply men making a decision to live life on their terms. To this end they are deciding to opt out of social contracts such as marriage. A psychologist named Dr. Helen Smith wrote a book about this phenomena called Men on Strike. It’s worth a read. Although I myself still hope to find a suitable marriage partner, I can’t honestly say that I don’t have a certain amount of sympathy for men who are part of such a movement. They have come to the conclusion that in a society dominated by feminism, marriage is a game that offers very high risk and very little reward. So they simply decide not to play. Maybe some of the men who identify with this movement are “whiners” but if you are going to play the whine card against MGTOW it is only fair that you to do the same for feminists/SJWs, because they’ve been whining for decades.

Why? “Feminism” isn’t exactly defined as an online movement centered around a website with relatively little activity dedicated to complaining about the one thing it has sworn off. Not exactly manly or indicative of doing things your way.

I’ve said it before, the kind of guys who join these online groups are not the ones who have any business being married anyway.

 

[HelenRose]

I’m willing to believe that a person that says “I’m not ready to get married” is not ready to get married.

Also, bear in mind that it may be a euphemism for “I don’t want to marry you.”

If someone is not ready for marriage they are not ready for sex either.

 

[Xantippe]

If someone is not ready for marriage they are not ready for sex either.

Who said any different?

With regard to MGTOW, there’s a lot of sour grapes to the “movement”.

With regard to the original post, there are huge numbers of young people living at home right now. They have no independent home to offer a prospective spouse, which is one of the factors putting a damper on their marriage and family hopes.

pewsocialtrends.org/2013/08/01/a-rising-share-of-young-adults-live-in-their-parents-home/

“In 2012, 36% of the nation’s young adults ages 18 to 31—the so-called Millennial generation—were living in their parents’ home, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data. This is the highest share in at least four decades and represents a slow but steady increase over the 32% of their same-aged counterparts who were living at home prior to the Great Recession in 2007 and the 34% doing so when it officially ended in 2009.”

So, the recession really isn’t over for young adults and I think it isn’t fair to criticize people for not getting married when they have very limited means.

(And no, I don’t buy happy talk about multi-rgenerational living–it isn’t something that comes naturally for most Americans and the most dysfunctional living situations are often the involuntary multigenerational ones where mom is ticked off at dad because dad won’t stand up to grandma–or some variation on that formula.)

 

[ShadowBoxer]

“In 2012, 36% of the nation’s young adults ages 18 to 31—the so-called Millennial generation—were living in their parents’ home, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data. This is the highest share in at least four decades and represents a slow but steady increase over the 32% of their same-aged counterparts who were living at home prior to the Great Recession in 2007 and the 34% doing so when it officially ended in 2009.”

So, the recession really isn’t over for young adults and I think it isn’t fair to criticize people for not getting married when they have very limited means.

Yes indeed. A very valid point.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Why? “Feminism” isn’t exactly defined as an online movement centered around a website…

Strictly speaking neither is MGTOW, it just happens to have a website. On that note, another Google search will lead you straight to plenty of websites and blogs devoted to feminism, where you can find plenty of articles and resources talking about how women are being neglected and victimized in everything from college campuses to video games to the Emmy Awards. It’s quite the smorgasbord. The point is both camps are trying to “educate” one demographic or another in order to bring about some kind of change. For your information, I found a Women Against Feminism Facebook page that has almost three times the number of likes as the MGTOW Facebook page. Men aren’t the only ones speaking up about the gender double standard.

…with relatively little activity dedicated to complaining about the one thing it has sworn off. Not exactly manly or indicative of doing things your way.

Okay, I am all for men being masculine but I hate when people try to use masculinity as a leash to bring men to heel. Why is that when a woman voices a grievance people nod, tear up, and applaud her for taking a stand, yet whenever a man dares to do the same the best response he can hope for is “man up and shut up?” If the MGTOW movement has turned out to be something of a support group for disgruntled males it might be because they cannot speak their minds anywhere else without being stoned. The need to periodically vent to a sympathetic ear is one felt by all humans and is not reserved for women.

I’ve said it before, the kind of guys who join these online groups are not the ones who have any business being married anyway.

Some, perhaps even many, of them probably are. However, considering that men are still the ones primarily responsible for providing for a family, that women seem to hold all the sexual power both in and outside of marriage, and that the divorce courts heavily favor women can you give me a good reason why any man today would be in a hurry to get married?

 

[HelenRose]

Who said any different?

With regard to MGTOW, there’s a lot of sour grapes to the “movement”.

With regard to the original post, there are huge numbers of young people living at home right now. They have no independent home to offer a prospective spouse, which is one of the factors putting a damper on their marriage and family hopes.

pewsocialtrends.org/2013/08/01/a-rising-share-of-young-adults-live-in-their-parents-home/

“In 2012, 36% of the nation’s young adults ages 18 to 31—the so-called Millennial generation—were living in their parents’ home, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of U.S. Census Bureau data. This is the highest share in at least four decades and represents a slow but steady increase over the 32% of their same-aged counterparts who were living at home prior to the Great Recession in 2007 and the 34% doing so when it officially ended in 2009.”

So, the recession really isn’t over for young adults and I think it isn’t fair to criticize people for not getting married when they have very limited means.

(And no, I don’t buy happy talk about multi-rgenerational living–it isn’t something that comes naturally for most Americans and the most dysfunctional living situations are often the involuntary multigenerational ones where mom is ticked off at dad because dad won’t stand up to grandma–or some variation on that formula.)

If a person is not ready for marriage they have no business being pushed into marriage by anyone. However, “I’m not ready for marriage” is a often used by those who are co-habituating and are “not ready” for a commitment. If a couple can’t not get married because they have limited means they should not be living together either.

Families have always pulled together with two or more generations living in one household during times of difficulty. I am sorry when family members can not get along. Each one of my children have come home from time to time (with their spouses and children) when things were unsettled for them. We survived and still love one another. I was always glad to see them come and very glad to see them go but we cherished the time spent together. But then again, my children’s spouses are very special people.

But don’t get me wrong. I love my grown grand children who have decided that marriage is “just a piece of paper”. I think that they are making a mistake but I still love them to pieces. And to give them credit, they do not whine about their situation either. I respect that. I don’t care to much for whiners.

 

[Xantippe]

If a person is not ready for marriage they have no business being pushed into marriage by anyone. However, “I’m not ready for marriage” is a often used by those who are co-habituating and are “not ready” for a commitment. If a couple can’t not get married because they have limited means they should not be living together either.

Families have always pulled together with two or more generations living in one household during times of difficulty. I am sorry when family members can not get along. Each one of my children have come home from time to time (with their spouses and children) when things were unsettled for them. We survived and still love one another. I was always glad to see them come and very glad to see them go but we cherished the time spent together. But then again, my children’s spouses are very special people.

But don’t get me wrong. I love my grown grand children who have decided that marriage is “just a piece of paper”. I think that they are making a mistake but I still love them to pieces. And to give them credit, they do not whine about their situation either. I respect that. I don’t care to much for whiners.

It’s very hard to get a marriage off the ground, though, when there is no privacy and no independence and no kitchen of one’s own and a different domestic system. It’s a very tough start for a marriage because it makes it difficult to correctly prioritize the marital relationship over the filial relationship–that’s a potentially fatal problem for a young marriage. (How often do we run into to complaints from women about how their husband puts his mom first every single time?) Having a home of one’s own is generally very important to young women (even if it’s a very humble home).

It’s also important to be able to have occasional newlywed fights out of one’s in-laws’ hearing.

I’ve never had to live with my in-laws (thank goodness!) but when we were younger, I found that visiting tends to put a crimp in my communication with my husband.

My dad had us stay with his parents from time to time (in financial hard times) and it was very hard on my mom, as I learned as an adult. But my dad didn’t understand that at the time–because he was perfectly comfy coming back home.

I wouldn’t blame anybody for delaying marriage if it meant living with in-laws and I would strongly discourage our children from living with us while married, particularly as newlyweds.

 

[HouseArrest]

This is based only on the people I know, but usually “I’m not ready to get married” means either:

1. I like giving my girlfriend or boyfriend “X” amount of my life and running the rest as I please, ultimately spending my time and money as I please, and I don’t want to give that up quite yet.
2. I’m in school and cannot be a parent right now, and so I can’t get married yet.
3. I’m hoping I find somebody better to marry than my current boyfriend/girlfriend, but I’m too afraid that I won’t to break up with him/her. I’ll play the wait-and-see for as long as I dare, because even though it isn’t a perfect match I’d rather marry the one I have now than grow old alone or get stuck marrying someone like the losers my friends are dating and marrying.
4. I’m afraid of divorce.

People are very afraid of not marrying well enough and winding up “miserable” in the wrong marriage or else getting divorced out of the blue over something they never saw coming. They do not see themselves as easily contented with a person who is “merely” a good person that they will trust and grow to love more and more as the years pass.

The Pope has said he has run into the same thing in seminarians. They are afraid to sign on to the priesthood for a lifetime, because they don’t think they could stand it if they were to become priests and then start to imagine they might like to try something else.

Afraid of Missing Out is a huge obstacle to both commitment and contentment these days.

#3 - maybe someone thinking along these lines will come to realize that s/he, too, must marry a human…

 

[Xantippe]

Some, perhaps even many, of them probably are. However, considering that men are still the ones primarily responsible for providing for a family, that women seem to hold all the sexual power both in and outside of marriage, and that the divorce courts heavily favor women can you give me a good reason why any man today would be in a hurry to get married?

Men do have sexual power–or at least SOME men do. Just like SOME women have sexual power.

Nobody should be in a hurry to get married.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think the MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) movement, however big or small it is, is necessarily about impacting mainstream society at all. As the name suggests the movement is simply men making a decision to live life on their terms. To this end they are deciding to opt out of social contracts such as marriage. A psychologist named Dr. Helen Smith wrote a book about this phenomena called Men on Strike. It’s worth a read. Although I myself still hope to find a suitable marriage partner, I can’t honestly say that I don’t have a certain amount of sympathy for men who are part of such a movement. They have come to the conclusion that in a society dominated by feminism, marriage is a game that offers very high risk and very little reward. So they simply decide not to play. Maybe some of the men who identify with this movement are “whiners” but if you are going to play the whine card against MGTOW it is only fair that you to do the same for feminists/SJWs, because they’ve been whining for decades.

I’ve seen a number of comments from MGTOWers over the last couple years. My take is that some or all of these things apply to them:

1. They don’t have a lot of social skills and/or a flourishing co-ed social life (I think we’ve all seen quite a few of those on CAF)
2. They have a small income that is just enough to afford the basics of life for one plus “guy stuff,” but not the basics of life for a family plus “guy stuff”
3. They do have at least a median income, but they are aware that having a wife and kids would involve a) having to answer to another human being for the way they spend their time and their money and b) they realize that wives spend a lot of money but are strangely unaware that the bulk of that is on stuff called “mortgages,” “property taxes,” “diapers,” “water,” “food,” “shoes for growing children,” “dental copays,” “car big enough to fit four kids,” etc. They believe that a wife would spend their entire income (and more) on bon bons and manicures and purses.

To the first category, I’d say, “Hey, get some social skills!” To the second, I’d say, “There are a lot of single female doctors and single female physician’s assistants, you know!” These days, there are lots of women that make a nice income and would also like a family. If you polish up your social and domestic skills, you might land one.

The third category is a little tricky, because they hold a combination of true and false beliefs. They are quite correct that marrying and having children with a SAHM (or even with a working wife) will probably cause a collapse in discretionary income. But here is where they go wrong: a) they don’t notice that it also often causes a collapse in discretionary income for the wife and b) they blame the collapse in discretionary income on having a wife, rather than realizing that it’s inherent in going from having one income supporting 1 person to one income supporting 4+ people (or even two incomes going from supporting 2 people to supporting 4+ people). As I try to mention on CAF, having children means having to expect 90% less free time and 90% less discretionary income.

By the way, I think we really don’t talk enough about the stuff in my last paragraph in conservative religious circles. Starting a family really does often represent a total collapse in discretionary income and free time for young parents. You will hear that fact stated in secular conversations, but in conservative religious circles, it’s treated as bad taste to mention it, and there’s generally a lot of happy talk and hand-waving. One of the problems with not talking frankly about it is that people like the MGTOWs wind up blaming women for what is a basic fact of family life.

 

[Kelfa28]

I’m not sure of the numbers (I don’t think there are any, of course) but I was under the impression that many MGTOWs were divorced men who were totally burned by the system once and are not about to make the same mistake twice.

There income was okay, even good, until they got divorced. Now they have child support, maybe spousal support, debt from the marriage and on and on.

Xantippe is also right about gross misunderstandings about married life.

Kids cost time and money. Lots and lots of time and money.

That is undeniable. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is delusional.

That is why so many people are trying and struggling to get their acts together and questioning their readiness for marriage.

It doesn’t help a twenty-something who recently graduated college, has student loan debt and is struggling to get a job that pays more then $10-12 an hour.

Hubby and are were lucky. We don’t have loan debt. My husband and I bought our house in our twenties…which is almost unheard of today.
My husband makes an above average salary while I finish school but we struggle.

Having very young children has zapped our time and surplus income.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

A lot of people who wish to avoid the issues with discretionary income disappearing, time, or do not want children can and do marry but simply avoid children for the duration of the marriage. There’s a number of married couples I know who intend to not have children even though they both make a good account of money. Also quite a few “one and done” couples.

I think it’s time we admit that marriage is a crazy idea … that is until you meet the one that you can envision it working with.

 

[pianistclare]

:bowdown:

I’ve seen a number of comments from MGTOWers over the last couple years. My take is that some or all of these things apply to them:

1. They don’t have a lot of social skills and/or a flourishing co-ed social life (I think we’ve all seen quite a few of those on CAF)
2. They have a small income that is just enough to afford the basics of life for one plus “guy stuff,” but not the basics of life for a family plus “guy stuff”
3. They do have at least a median income, but they are aware that having a wife and kids would involve a) having to answer to another human being for the way they spend their time and their money and b) they realize that wives spend a lot of money but are strangely unaware that the bulk of that is on stuff called “mortgages,” “property taxes,” “diapers,” “water,” “food,” “shoes for growing children,” “dental copays,” “car big enough to fit four kids,” etc. They believe that a wife would spend their entire income (and more) on bon bons and manicures and purses.

To the first category, I’d say, “Hey, get some social skills!” To the second, I’d say, “There are a lot of single female doctors and single female physician’s assistants, you know!” These days, there are lots of women that make a nice income and would also like a family. If you polish up your social and domestic skills, you might land one.

The third category is a little tricky, because they hold a combination of true and false beliefs. They are quite correct that marrying and having children with a SAHM (or even with a working wife) will probably cause a collapse in discretionary income. But here is where they go wrong: a) they don’t notice that it also often causes a collapse in discretionary income for the wife and b) they blame the collapse in discretionary income on having a wife, rather than realizing that it’s inherent in going from having one income supporting 1 person to one income supporting 4+ people (or even two incomes going from supporting 2 people to supporting 4+ people). As I try to mention on CAF, having children means having to expect 90% less free time and 90% less discretionary income.

By the way, I think we really don’t talk enough about the stuff in my last paragraph in conservative religious circles. Starting a family really does often represent a total collapse in discretionary income and free time for young parents. You will hear that fact stated in secular conversations, but in conservative religious circles, it’s treated as bad taste to mention it, and there’s generally a lot of happy talk and hand-waving. One of the problems with not talking frankly about it is that people like the MGTOWs wind up blaming women for what is a basic fact of family life.

Spot on. Print it out. Glue it to the bathroom mirror.

 

[EasterJoy]

I’ve seen a number of comments from MGTOWers over the last couple years. My take is that some or all of these things apply to them:

1. They don’t have a lot of social skills and/or a flourishing co-ed social life (I think we’ve all seen quite a few of those on CAF)
2. They have a small income that is just enough to afford the basics of life for one plus “guy stuff,” but not the basics of life for a family plus “guy stuff”
3. They do have at least a median income, but they are aware that having a wife and kids would involve a) having to answer to another human being for the way they spend their time and their money and b) they realize that wives spend a lot of money but are strangely unaware that the bulk of that is on stuff called “mortgages,” “property taxes,” “diapers,” “water,” “food,” “shoes for growing children,” “dental copays,” “car big enough to fit four kids,” etc. They believe that a wife would spend their entire income (and more) on bon bons and manicures and purses.

To the first category, I’d say, “Hey, get some social skills!” To the second, I’d say, “There are a lot of single female doctors and single female physician’s assistants, you know!” These days, there are lots of women that make a nice income and would also like a family. If you polish up your social and domestic skills, you might land one.

The third category is a little tricky, because they hold a combination of true and false beliefs. They are quite correct that marrying and having children with a SAHM (or even with a working wife) will probably cause a collapse in discretionary income. But here is where they go wrong: a) they don’t notice that it also often causes a collapse in discretionary income for the wife and b) they blame the collapse in discretionary income on having a wife, rather than realizing that it’s inherent in going from having one income supporting 1 person to one income supporting 4+ people (or even two incomes going from supporting 2 people to supporting 4+ people). As I try to mention on CAF, having children means having to expect 90% less free time and 90% less discretionary income.

By the way, I think we really don’t talk enough about the stuff in my last paragraph in conservative religious circles. Starting a family really does often represent a total collapse in discretionary income and free time for young parents. You will hear that fact stated in secular conversations, but in conservative religious circles, it’s treated as bad taste to mention it, and there’s generally a lot of happy talk and hand-waving. One of the problems with not talking frankly about it is that people like the MGTOWs wind up blaming women for what is a basic fact of family life.

I think we have all heard the Irina Dunn quote that Gloria Steinem made famous:
A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

Irina Dunn, in her turn, has said that the quip was her twist on this maxim she paraphrased from (unattributed) philosophy reading she had done for an English literature paper:
A man needs God like a fish needs a bicycle.

In a marriage that starts with “I don’t need you, and I don’t need God, either,” the relationship must have “I like you” as its foundation. That means it will last just as long as the affection is felt.

That I-am-for-me attitude gives any reasonable person pause when contemplating marriage. The epidemic is so widespread, it has to! The work of the rest of us is to infuse our fellow Christians with courage and a resolve to commit to fidelity through thick and thin, and to help them to see that devoting ourselves to our ourselves is to build our house on sand.

 

[styrgwillidar]

I’ve seen a number of comments from MGTOWers over the last couple years. My take is that some or all of these things apply to them:

1. They don’t have a lot of social skills and/or a flourishing co-ed social life (I think we’ve all seen quite a few of those on CAF)
2. They have a small income that is just enough to afford the basics of life for one plus “guy stuff,” but not the basics of life for a family plus “guy stuff”
3. They do have at least a median income, but they are aware that having a wife and kids would involve a) having to answer to another human being for the way they spend their time and their money and b) they realize that wives spend a lot of money but are strangely unaware that the bulk of that is on stuff called “mortgages,” “property taxes,” “diapers,” “water,” “food,” “shoes for growing children,” “dental copays,” “car big enough to fit four kids,” etc. They believe that a wife would spend their entire income (and more) on bon bons and manicures and purses.

To the first category, I’d say, “Hey, get some social skills!” To the second, I’d say, “There are a lot of single female doctors and single female physician’s assistants, you know!” These days, there are lots of women that make a nice income and would also like a family. If you polish up your social and domestic skills, you might land one.

The third category is a little tricky, because they hold a combination of true and false beliefs. They are quite correct that marrying and having children with a SAHM (or even with a working wife) will probably cause a collapse in discretionary income. But here is where they go wrong: a) they don’t notice that it also often causes a collapse in discretionary income for the wife and b) they blame the collapse in discretionary income on having a wife, rather than realizing that it’s inherent in going from having one income supporting 1 person to one income supporting 4+ people (or even two incomes going from supporting 2 people to supporting 4+ people). As I try to mention on CAF, having children means having to expect 90% less free time and 90% less discretionary income.

By the way, I think we really don’t talk enough about the stuff in my last paragraph in conservative religious circles. Starting a family really does often represent a total collapse in discretionary income and free time for young parents. You will hear that fact stated in secular conversations, but in conservative religious circles, it’s treated as bad taste to mention it, and there’s generally a lot of happy talk and hand-waving. One of the problems with not talking frankly about it is that people like the MGTOWs wind up blaming women for what is a basic fact of family life.

Funny, the ones I’ve met are very outgoing and gregarious, the life of the party, own their own businesses and are into a variety of interests. (One owns three businesses, all successful, an exceptional musician, scuba diver and recreational pilot who owns a small helicopter). Typically, they have no trouble attracting women and very active dating lives. Although they won’t adjust/change their lifestyles to suit whomever they happen to be seeing.

But, then, those are just the ones I’ve met vice folks posting on the internet.

 

[Sarcelle]

Funny, the ones I’ve met are very outgoing and gregarious, the life of the party, own their own businesses and are into a variety of interests. (One owns three businesses, all successful, an exceptional musician, scuba diver and recreational pilot who owns a small helicopter). Typically, they have no trouble attracting women and very active dating lives. Although they won’t adjust/change their lifestyles to suit whomever they happen to be seeing.

But, then, those are just the ones I’ve met vice folks posting on the internet.

I think the outgoing accomplished ones who you’ve met may think they have more to lose when they get married and then divorced later on down the road. The risk is just not worth it.

There also seem to be a lot of cynicism and bitterness towards others that seem to have infected modern society. Even Christians are not immune from the influence.