The ‘I’m Not Ready to Get Married’ Trap

[styrgwillidar]

I think the outgoing accomplished ones who you’ve met may think they have more to lose when they get married and then divorced later on down the road. The risk is just not worth it.

There also seem to be a lot of cynicism and bitterness towards others that seem to have infected modern society. Even Christians are not immune from the influence.

It isn’t that, since we’ve talked about his opinion towards marriage since I chose that path- kids being important to me, and I’ve never been into casual relationships… He’s pretty typical of other guys like him that I know, he’s not anti-woman or afraid of losing a lot in a divorce (they all have or know good lawyers, and they’re all bright). They just seem to enjoy the way their lives are going and aren’t willing to make the significant changes that marriage would require. Or haven’t met the woman that is compatible with them pursuing their lives in the way they want. They date-- but, even if they date long term, they’re not willing to prioritize those relationships over other interests. For example recently it was an interest in wine so he was taking the classes to get some kind of ‘sommelier’ (sp?) certification/accreditation.

Cynical or bitter is not a word I would use to describe them. They view themselves as realists and just take people as they are while being who they want to be. Self-centered would certainly be accurate.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think the outgoing accomplished ones who you’ve met may think they have more to lose when they get married and then divorced later on down the road. The risk is just not worth it.

There also seem to be a lot of cynicism and bitterness towards others that seem to have infected modern society. Even Christians are not immune from the influence.

Well, and even some Christians for some reason do not seem to see that the eternal risk of looking out for yourself and your finances first far outweighs the risk of entering into a carefully-discerned good-faith marriage and losing money because the attempt fails.

The risk in getting into marriage rashly is also eternal; the wrong spouse can make living the Christian life faithfully intensely difficult. The desire to live one’s true call, the desire to see your loved one make an appropriate match (even if it is with someone else), and the desire to live a Christian life more fully ought to be the only reasons to actively avoid marriage. If it is about keeping the number of boats, guns, and wild friends you want, you’re already missing the boat whether you marry or not.

 

[Sarcelle]

Well, and even some Christians for some reason do not seem to see that the eternal risk of looking out for yourself and your finances first far outweighs the risk of entering into a carefully-discerned good-faith marriage and losing money because the attempt fails.

The risk in getting into marriage rashly is also eternal; the wrong spouse can make living the Christian life faithfully intensely difficult. The desire to live one’s true call, the desire to see your loved one make an appropriate match (even if it is with someone else), and the desire to live a Christian life more fully ought to be the only reasons to actively avoid marriage. If it is about keeping the number of boats, guns, and wild friends you want, you’re already missing the boat whether you marry or not.

True

 

[styrgwillidar]

I

…
There also seem to be a lot of cynicism and bitterness towards others that seem to have infected modern society. Even Christians are not immune from the influence.

I’d like to think that they are in the minority, but have been given a disproportionate amount of air time given the ease of access to social media and being able to vent in comment sections. It seems the folks who want to complain have the most time and motivation to do so. I think the vast majority of folks are doing what they’ve always done-- living their lives, finding a job, wanting to find someone to share their lives with, have kids etc.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I think the outgoing accomplished ones who you’ve met may think they have more to lose when they get married and then divorced later on down the road. The risk is just not worth it.

There also seem to be a lot of cynicism and bitterness towards others that seem to have infected modern society. Even Christians are not immune from the influence.

Thank you so much for saying it. Regardless of whether one considers a movement like MGTOW to be good, bad or neutral it’s not irrational. Moreover I don’t think you are going to see the opt-out-of-marriage phenomenon go away anytime soon due to the social and legal reasons you mentioned. The economic reasons previously mentioned in this thread are another big factor.

 

[Xantippe]

I think it’s time we admit that marriage is a crazy idea … that is until you meet the one that you can envision it working with.

Right.

It not infrequently happens that a guy or a gal “isn’t ready” and then meets a different person and marries them right off.

So, take-away lesson–don’t wait around indefinitely for a significant other to grow up.

 

[Xantippe]

Funny, the ones I’ve met are very outgoing and gregarious, the life of the party, own their own businesses and are into a variety of interests. (One owns three businesses, all successful, an exceptional musician, scuba diver and recreational pilot who owns a small helicopter). Typically, they have no trouble attracting women and very active dating lives. Although they won’t adjust/change their lifestyles to suit whomever they happen to be seeing.

But, then, those are just the ones I’ve met vice folks posting on the internet.

Well, that is the problem, isn’t it–the outgoing ones are outgoing. That’s a bit of a tautology, isn’t it?

For comparison, consider the following:

–It’s not true that video gamers are on average anti-social hermits–the ones I meet socially are very outgoing!
–It’s not true that women are on average worse at math–the female mathematicians I meet are very good at math!
–It’s not true that Muslims are intolerant–the Muslims I meet at the college Christian-Muslim dialog group are very tolerant!

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

It was suggested in this thread that there are single female physicians who would like a family. Nothing wrong with that, but the dirty secret that isn’t remarked on is that even today, most educated and working women who want to be married still want to marry someone who is at least equal to them or above them in status. Even today, despite all the advances of women in our society, much of a typical married woman’s status is still tied in her mind to the status of the man she married and feminism has clearly not overridden that trait. As a man whose occupation runs closer to blue collar than white, I’ve run into this often enough that I no longer spend time with women who have advanced degrees leading to advanced incomes (think doctors, lawyers, executives, etc.). I’m not afraid of their status, I can hang with them intellectually; it’s that they don’t want to be seen with mine. In other words, they’re usually not willing to marry down on job/income unless I can show significant status or potential of status in some other way that makes them look good to their circle. I’m not upset, it is what it is, cultures change over time but women have always looked to status since time immemorial and I knew that going in.

Along those lines, the educational system has been favoring women more and more at least since the 1970’s. As of 2008, there was a 43.6-56.4 split favoring women across all public universities in the US; this is worse in private institutions. How many women college grads will compromise if they can’t find a fellow college grad to marry? If the past is any indication, not enough of them will be willing to do so.

 

[EasterJoy]

The Men Going Their Own Way movement is just a group for men who want affirmation of the self-centered “I only need myself” attitude.

As they say themselves, “Why have a wife… when he can have a LIFE? Marriage is for gays.”

Their movement is anti-Christian by its very nature. Period.

 

[Sarcelle]

The Men Going Their Own Way movement is just a group for men who want affirmation of the self-centered “I only need myself” attitude.

As they say themselves, “Why have a wife… when he can have a LIFE? Marriage is for gays.”

Their movement is anti-Christian by its very nature. Period.

It is one thing to discern through the lens of faith that one is not called to marriage and another to avoid marriage as a means of expressing spite towards members of the opposite sex. The MGTOW group seems to be expressing the latter option. I have read members of this group say their decision to forego marriage is to punish women by limiting to women the amount of marriage eligible men. All this resentment is like swallowing poison and wishing for the death of another.

And before the men jump on me saying that women do this too, I say yes. I say resentment and bitterness harms the individual who harbors it more than the intended target. No matter the sex.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

Now that it’s no longer a requirement to marry, or to some extent stay married we have seen some interesting things. Perhaps large numbers of married people in the past did not want to be married?

Think of it this way, once no fault divorce came about the main force holding marriages together was the couple themselves. Thus the famous 50% divorce rate. Now it is closer to 40% but there’s a possible spike of gray divorces from the ones who kept it together for the kids.

Not only is marriage not for everybody, but perhaps it isn’t suitable for most?

 

[pianistclare]

Now that it’s no longer a requirement to marry, or to some extent stay married we have seen some interesting things. Perhaps large numbers of married people in the past did not want to be married?

Think of it this way, once no fault divorce came about the main force holding marriages together was the couple themselves. Thus the famous 50% divorce rate. Now it is closer to 40% but there’s a possible spike of gray divorces from the ones who kept it together for the kids.

Not only is marriage not for everybody, but perhaps it isn’t suitable for most?

There’s not good reason why marriage shouldn’t be for everybody.
Take selfishness out of the equation and people could marry and be blissfully happy.

God intended this well. It’s people who have messed it all up.

 

[HouseArrest]

I’ve seen a number of comments from MGTOWers over the last couple years. My take is that some or all of these things apply to them:

1. They don’t have a lot of social skills and/or a flourishing co-ed social life (I think we’ve all seen quite a few of those on CAF)
2. They have a small income that is just enough to afford the basics of life for one plus “guy stuff,” but not the basics of life for a family plus “guy stuff”
3. They do have at least a median income, but they are aware that having a wife and kids would involve a) having to answer to another human being for the way they spend their time and their money and b) they realize that wives spend a lot of money but are strangely unaware that the bulk of that is on stuff called “mortgages,” “property taxes,” “diapers,” “water,” “food,” “shoes for growing children,” “dental copays,” “car big enough to fit four kids,” etc. They believe that a wife would spend their entire income (and more) on bon bons and manicures and purses.

To the first category, I’d say, “Hey, get some social skills!” To the second, I’d say, “There are a lot of single female doctors and single female physician’s assistants, you know!” These days, there are lots of women that make a nice income and would also like a family. If you polish up your social and domestic skills, you might land one.

The third category is a little tricky, because they hold a combination of true and false beliefs. They are quite correct that marrying and having children with a SAHM (or even with a working wife) will probably cause a collapse in discretionary income. But here is where they go wrong: a) they don’t notice that it also often causes a collapse in discretionary income for the wife and b) they blame the collapse in discretionary income on having a wife, rather than realizing that it’s inherent in going from having one income supporting 1 person to one income supporting 4+ people (or even two incomes going from supporting 2 people to supporting 4+ people). As I try to mention on CAF, having children means having to expect 90% less free time and 90% less discretionary income.

By the way, I think we really don’t talk enough about the stuff in my last paragraph in conservative religious circles. Starting a family really does often represent a total collapse in discretionary income and free time for young parents. You will hear that fact stated in secular conversations, but in conservative religious circles, it’s treated as bad taste to mention it, and there’s generally a lot of happy talk and hand-waving. One of the problems with not talking frankly about it is that people like the MGTOWs wind up blaming women for what is a basic fact of family life.

I wonder how #1 is going to pull off the casual relationships with women.

 

[HerCrazierHalf]

There’s not good reason why marriage shouldn’t be for everybody.
Take selfishness out of the equation and people could marry and be blissfully happy.

God intended this well. It’s people who have messed it all up.

Take selfishness out and most problems are solved.

If you don’t mind, what age did you get married? Now think back 10 or 15 years before that. Do you believe you were ready back then?

 

[Xantippe]

It was suggested in this thread that there are single female physicians who would like a family. Nothing wrong with that, but the dirty secret that isn’t remarked on is that even today, most educated and working women who want to be married still want to marry someone who is at least equal to them or above them in status. Even today, despite all the advances of women in our society, much of a typical married woman’s status is still tied in her mind to the status of the man she married and feminism has clearly not overridden that trait. As a man whose occupation runs closer to blue collar than white, I’ve run into this often enough that I no longer spend time with women who have advanced degrees leading to advanced incomes (think doctors, lawyers, executives, etc.). I’m not afraid of their status, I can hang with them intellectually; it’s that they don’t want to be seen with mine. In other words, they’re usually not willing to marry down on job/income unless I can show significant status or potential of status in some other way that makes them look good to their circle. I’m not upset, it is what it is, cultures change over time but women have always looked to status since time immemorial and I knew that going in.

Along those lines, the educational system has been favoring women more and more at least since the 1970’s. As of 2008, there was a 43.6-56.4 split favoring women across all public universities in the US; this is worse in private institutions. How many women college grads will compromise if they can’t find a fellow college grad to marry? If the past is any indication, not enough of them will be willing to do so.

How about physician’s assistants? RNs? Public school teachers?

 

[Xantippe]

I wonder how #1 is going to pull off the casual relationships with women.

There is that.

 

[Xantippe]

It was suggested in this thread that there are single female physicians who would like a family. Nothing wrong with that, but the dirty secret that isn’t remarked on is that even today, most educated and working women who want to be married still want to marry someone who is at least equal to them or above them in status. Even today, despite all the advances of women in our society, much of a typical married woman’s status is still tied in her mind to the status of the man she married and feminism has clearly not overridden that trait. As a man whose occupation runs closer to blue collar than white, I’ve run into this often enough that I no longer spend time with women who have advanced degrees leading to advanced incomes (think doctors, lawyers, executives, etc.). I’m not afraid of their status, I can hang with them intellectually; it’s that they don’t want to be seen with mine. In other words, they’re usually not willing to marry down on job/income unless I can show significant status or potential of status in some other way that makes them look good to their circle. I’m not upset, it is what it is, cultures change over time but women have always looked to status since time immemorial and I knew that going in.

Along those lines, the educational system has been favoring women more and more at least since the 1970’s. As of 2008, there was a 43.6-56.4 split favoring women across all public universities in the US; this is worse in private institutions. How many women college grads will compromise if they can’t find a fellow college grad to marry? If the past is any indication, not enough of them will be willing to do so.

Most colleges are pretty darn unselective.

I just looked it up and UT Austin (which is a very good school) takes nearly 40% of applicants.

Texas A & M (also a good school) takes 69% of applicants.

UT San Antonio takes 60% of applicants.

We’re not talking about Harvard level (6%) acceptance rates here.

If a guy has the brains to get through a 4-year school, he can find a 4-year school that will take him.

Edited to add: I just looked it up, and Harvard is 53% male, 47% female. So, the center of US intellectual liberalism has a pretty darn even gender split.

 

[EasterJoy]

Now that it’s no longer a requirement to marry, or to some extent stay married we have seen some interesting things. Perhaps large numbers of married people in the past did not want to be married?

Think of it this way, once no fault divorce came about the main force holding marriages together was the couple themselves. Thus the famous 50% divorce rate. Now it is closer to 40% but there’s a possible spike of gray divorces from the ones who kept it together for the kids.

Not only is marriage not for everybody, but perhaps it isn’t suitable for most?

*I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction. *
(1 Cor 7:32-35)

It is totally fine to discern you are not cut out for marriage. The current mistake, however, is to believe that the lack of a vocation to marriage, the priesthood, or the religious life implies that you are free to live for yourself alone. That is not a Christian attitude. There is no Christian “vocation” to devote yourself to yourself.

 

[ThePCWife]

There’s not good reason why marriage shouldn’t be for everybody.
Take selfishness out of the equation and people could marry and be blissfully happy.

God intended this well. It’s people who have messed it all up.

No, marriage isn’t for everyone because not everyone will be capable of earning enough to fund a private household and every kind of work shouldn’t be expected to. I’m totally on the “less marriage” train because there is absolutely nothing wrong with a calling to lifelong singleness, or single life in cloister. And I’m not even Catholic (although I wanted to become a nun and was ready to start the process before unexpectedly marrying).

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, marriage isn’t for everyone because not everyone will be capable of earning enough to fund a private household and every kind of work shouldn’t be expected to. I’m totally on the “less marriage” train because there is absolutely nothing wrong with a calling to lifelong singleness, or single life in cloister. And I’m not even Catholic (although I wanted to become a nun and was ready to start the process before unexpectedly marrying).

A number of people have brought up finance but the simple fact is that two people can always live together more cheaply than apart.

Expenses are a more valid concern where children are involved and that, of course, is a big part of marriage.