The ‘I’m Not Ready to Get Married’ Trap

[Norseman82]

The context I am getting from reading the link is that there are societal signals today saying that “you are not ready to get married” (whether the reasons be economic, educational, not having a masters degree in Theology of the Body, not having had your own life, not having been through years of therapy for some supposed issue (real or imaginary) you are dealing with, etc.), and the author is simply saying that in times past, these things did not matter. Of course, in the past, most people did not incur a huge amount of college debt that took years to pay off, either.

I also wonder with all this talk of “the Catholic view of marriage” people think marriage is something so lofty and unattainable to all but the “elite”.

 

[Xantippe]

The context I am getting from reading the link is that there are societal signals today saying that “you are not ready to get married” (whether the reasons be economic, educational, not having a masters degree in Theology of the Body, not having had your own life, not having been through years of therapy for some supposed issue (real or imaginary) you are dealing with, etc.), and the author is simply saying that in times past, these things did not matter. Of course, in the past, most people did not incur a huge amount of college debt that took years to pay off, either.

In times past, there were expectations that a couple have the wherewithal to raise a family before they got married–whatever that might be in their particular time, place and station in life. (See for example 19th century novels where the major issue preventing marriage is often the lack of adequate funds on either or both sides.)

It’s actually a bit of a historical novelty to take the position that couples ought to just jump in without considering how they will manage to raise a family together.

Also, the age at first marriage is actually historically much higher than a lot of people assume (at least for men)–see for example here:

census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/MS-2.pdf

Note that in 1890, the median age at first marriage for men was 26. By 26, a guy in 1890 would have had a lot of opportunities for living, especially as an 8th grade education was quite a fine accomplishment at the time–a median young man with an 8th grade education would have had 10+ solid years in the workforce by the time he got married at 26.

Also, people in the past did manage to have bad marriages, often for very predictable reasons. Count Tolstoy, for instance, married when he was 34. His bride was 18.

“The marriage was marked from the outset by sexual passion and emotional insensitivity when Tolstoy, on the eve of their marriage, gave her his diaries detailing his extensive sexual past and the fact that one of the serfs on his estate had borne him a son.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy

Oops.

A little therapy and premarital counseling would have been helpful there, I think. Maybe even some Theology of the Body–but perhaps not a master’s degree!

 

[Norseman82]

In times past, there were expectations that a couple have the wherewithal to raise a family before they got married–whatever that might be in their particular time, place and station in life. (See for example 19th century novels where the major issue preventing marriage is often the lack of adequate funds on either or both sides.)

It’s actually a bit of a historical novelty to take the position that couples ought to just jump in without considering how they will manage to raise a family together.

Also, the age at first marriage is actually historically much higher than a lot of people assume (at least for men)–see for example here:

census.gov/hhes/families/files/graphics/MS-2.pdf

Note that in 1890, the median age at first marriage for men was 26. By 26, a guy in 1890 would have had a lot of opportunities for living, especially as an 8th grade education was quite a fine accomplishment at the time–a median young man with an 8th grade education would have had 10+ solid years in the workforce by the time he got married at 26.

Also, people in the past did manage to have bad marriages, often for very predictable reasons. Count Tolstoy, for instance, married when he was 34. His bride was 18.

“The marriage was marked from the outset by sexual passion and emotional insensitivity when Tolstoy, on the eve of their marriage, gave her his diaries detailing his extensive sexual past and the fact that one of the serfs on his estate had borne him a son.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Tolstoy

Oops.

A little therapy and premarital counseling would have been helpful there, I think. Maybe even some Theology of the Body–but perhaps not a master’s degree!

Is the Tolstoy example you cite the norm or the exception?

The 26-year old probably spent his 10+ years since 8th grade graduation sweating in the factories or fields to help his family at home. Wages may have been lower, so getting started at 14 was a necessary start.

I think what the author is getting at is that there are unnecessary expectations being placed on couples beyond “do you have a job that can support a family”

 

[EasterJoy]

The context I am getting from reading the link is that there are societal signals today saying that “you are not ready to get married” (whether the reasons be economic, educational, not having a masters degree in Theology of the Body, not having had your own life, not having been through years of therapy for some supposed issue (real or imaginary) you are dealing with, etc.), and the author is simply saying that in times past, these things did not matter. Of course, in the past, most people did not incur a huge amount of college debt that took years to pay off, either.

I also wonder with all this talk of “the Catholic view of marriage” people think marriage is something so lofty and unattainable to all but the “elite”.

I don’t think the people avoiding marriage are afraid of “the Catholic view of marriage.” No, I think that is nothing compared to their fear of no-fault divorce.

For a man, the median age of first marriage is only about 2 years later now than it was in 1890. The median age of first marriage for women has gone up by about four years Considering how much more time women spend getting an education now, it is surprising that it isn’t far more.

Marriage served secular purposes in times past that it does not serve now, such as building desirable family alliances. There was a time, for instance, in which parents had a duty to find the best match for their children, considering their means and social class. That duty was akin to the duty parents now have to provide educational opportunities as their means allow. In both cases, the goal was to hand economic stability down to the next generation.

 

[Xantippe]

Is the Tolstoy example you cite the norm or the exception?

The 26-year old probably spent his 10+ years since 8th grade graduation sweating in the factories or fields to help his family at home. Wages may have been lower, so getting started at 14 was a necessary start.

I think what the author is getting at is that there are unnecessary expectations being placed on couples beyond “do you have a job that can support a family”

The Tolstoys had a particularly rough marriage, but certain features of their marriage (older man with history of wenching marries very young woman) were not at all uncommon in the past. It’s arguable that women marrying a bit later (as we do today) is very helpful with regard to finding emotionally mature and compatible spouses. An 18-year-old is very much a work in progress, so anybody who marries one may find himself married to somebody very different in 10 years (or worse–exactly the same). Slightly older people are more what-you-see-is-what-you-get.

“Do you have a job that can support a family” is more challenging than you give it credit for. Most young adults are doing very well if they are earning enough to support one person (themselves). Many, many young adults are financially dependent on their parents well into their mid-20s. To support 3 or 4 people (let alone 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10) may be entirely out of reach for some time. Also, just having the income isn’t enough–one also needs a lot of virtue (faith, hope and love and also the less glamorous virtues–prudence, temperance, fortitude and justice). Some of that virtue grow with opportunities to exert it as a spouse or parent, but there are also single versions of those virtues that ought to be present before marriage.

Also, newlyweds and young parents ought to have an emergency fund–at least a small one. I recommend $1k per member of the household.

My husband and I got married youngish (22 and 25) and didn’t have our first child for a while (it was four years later) and even so, our first year of life on one income was financially a bit of a disaster. Even in our late 20s and with my husband having just gotten a very promising job in his field, we did not make enough to live in the DC metro area on one income. At the time, I couldn’t for the life of me figure out why I couldn’t make it work, but I now realize that we just didn’t have enough income. Fortunately, we had the good luck of being able to eliminate our housing expenses for the next several years, but if we’d had to pay for housing, it would have been a huge trainwreck and/or we would have to have asked for handouts from the grandmas and grandpas. We weren’t really on an even keel until we left DC and it took us 15 years of marriage before we were able to buy our first house.

My feeling is that we don’t start early enough with getting children to save and teaching them to handle money. For a lot of families, there’s a real concern about getting penalized by college financial aid for saving, but it’s a very bad thing that by the time debt payment and savings become a real, live issue, the young adult is often already 22, a college graduate, at least knee-deep in student loans, starting an entry level job, and barely has a penny to his name. Given that late start, it’s a bit of a miracle that the median American woman manages to marry by 27 and the median American man by 29. I think, given the handicaps, that that’s doing really well.

I’m trying to give my kids a better start with money. The big ones are a teen and a tween and we are having our oldest save for her senior trip and we have started to check in with her every month. If the kids live at home for college, I would like to have them save $200 a month during college as a condition of living at home. We would make every effort to get them through college without student loans. This is all very theoretical, but if they continued to live at home as young adults, I would like them to continue saving at that rate, or better. There are no guarantees, but I like to think that this sort of serious savings program would make young marriage at least a possibility, as well as equipping them better to manage their finances as newlyweds and young parents.

 

[CatholicGuy31]

nationalreview.com/article/429065/not-ready-get-married-trap

On the other hand, if marriage is, itself, the preparation for marriage then it’s harder to justify many annulments.

I think much of the Church’s concerns come down to two things. Preserving the free will of both spouses and making sure both have a true understanding of catholic marriage before entering into it.

Frank Sinatra explains it well “Love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage”. Putting the cart before the horse usually creates a lot of problems (although sometimes these can sort themselves out).

Frank however missed one very crucial point in his lyrics. A catholic marriage must also have Christ at its centre.

 

[Xantippe]

I think much of the Church’s concerns come down to two things. Preserving the free will of both spouses and making sure both have a true understanding of catholic marriage before entering into it.

Frank Sinatra explains it well “Love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage”. Putting the cart before the horse usually creates a lot of problems (although sometimes these can sort themselves out).

Frank however missed one very crucial point in his lyrics. A catholic marriage must also have Christ at its centre.

There were also a whole bunch of Mrs. Sinatras.

 

[CatholicGuy31]

There were also a whole bunch of Mrs. Sinatras.

Not to mention the few extras on the side. Its a shame he never practised what he preached.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think much of the Church’s concerns come down to two things. Preserving the free will of both spouses and making sure both have a true understanding of catholic marriage before entering into it.

The second objective can be very slippery. What is a “true understanding”? I would argue that a better term would be “sufficient understanding”.

 

[CatholicGuy31]

The second objective can be very slippery. What is a “true understanding”? I would argue that a better term would be “sufficient understanding”.

Fair point. I suppose you only get a “true” understanding after being married 7 years. (I don’t know why but I have heard the 7th year is always the hardest).

 

[PLinz]

Eh…I’m really unconvinced by this “movement” that pops up here on CAF every few months. A quick Google shows only 12K ‘likes’ on FB, it’s a small subreddit, and most of their discussions seem to revolve around women - mgtow is the last resort after a lifetime of rejection. They boast about not being successful professionally and complain that women have never given them the time of day. It’s basically an internet subculture devoted to whining. I really don’t believe this is or will impact mainstream society in any way. It seems to come up here disproportionately often given it’s lack of significance.

Two questions:

1. 
   *]Do you verify claims that you make?
   *]Was your comment meant as a joke?
   
   -PL

 

[PLinz]

I am on a few Catholic Dating sites. From reading the posts in the forums on one of those sites and some of the profiles I have read, I got the impression that a good number of women on that site (not the majority though) would never settle for anything less than a man who makes great money, already has their future children’s college fund started, must absolutely have the money to send their children to Catholic school, already own a house and of course have plenty of play money left over for traveling. They seem to look at things like money is 100% the most important thing to getting married. Though they will never admit that. I worked my way up from sometimes not having a dime to my name to a decent savings and a decent career and I get the impression that these women would think “Still not good enough”. I want to be working my way towards marriage so much but I have nobody willing to do the same with me.

If you look at many Catholic dating advice sites (and blogs, forums), you’ll see a heavy emphasis on those things. People’s expectations are formed in part by the advice they’re given. Where I live, such advice is rare - thus, the average age that women are married at is about 21; for men it is about 23. Strangely, none of them have suffered due to marrying so early (early relative to the US average).

A renewed recession will likely push the US average age down.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Two questions:

1. 
   *]Do you verify claims that you make?
   *]Was your comment meant as a joke?
   
   -PL

1. 
   Nope, just did a quick Google. It’s a small, online group that simultaneously swears off and obsesses about women.
   
   As for whether or not I’m joking, imagine explaining this group to an attractive, successful man who has anything approaching social skills. He would probably cringe, and then laugh. “Joining” and identifying himself with such an acronym is something he would find embarrassing.
   
   And that’s why it will never go mainstream or have an impact on society as a whole - views on women aside. You just aren’t going to convince men that as big strong manly men they need an online support group to feel empowered to do their own thing. At least not the kind of men women were hoping to marry in the first place.
   
   And even if you could, convincing them that long term relationships and/or marriage is antithetical to living their own life would be another uphill battle.

 

[Xantippe]

If you look at many Catholic dating advice sites (and blogs, forums), you’ll see a heavy emphasis on those things. People’s expectations are formed in part by the advice they’re given. Where I live, such advice is rare - thus, the average age that women are married at is about 21; for men it is about 23. Strangely, none of them have suffered due to marrying so early (early relative to the US average).

A renewed recession will likely push the US average age down.

Is this the US? I looked here and couldn’t find any state with an average of first marriage that resemble the 21/23 you mention.

mic.com/articles/92361/the-median-age-of-marriage-in-every-state-in-the-u-s-in-two-maps#.nCWiI2HIe

Even Utah has 23.5 as the low for women and 25.6 as the low for men for men.

Furthermore, it isn’t true that Utah is unscathed.

It’s easy find articles online about Utah’s high rate of bankruptcy (#5 in the country recently, #1 in a number of previous years).

archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/money/55626173-79/bankruptcy-filings-utah-2012.html.csp

It is genuinely financially difficult to immediately start having a family.

Also, the low-age-of-marriage states in the US are often the high-rate-of-divorce states. Not coincidentally.

What makes you think that recession makes people marry younger? That’s ridiculous.

 

[Sarcelle]

You will have to keep in mind the difficulties of getting married in the first place. Finding a spouse that has views faithful to Catholic teachings on marriage and family is hard enough as it is in an increasingly secular world. Even in Catholic dating sites. Add to that people who have not seen a good marriage modeled to them in the first place. Add on top of that the lack of good job, where even the most menial requires a degree.

When one does find a good spouse and a good job, try raising an increasing number of kids with very little social support. The extended family at least in the US is gone.

It is easy to spout off platitudes when others tell of their difficulties but it really does not help things.

 

[3DOCTORS]

Jumping in late, and with a warning – big long rambling post, there is so much to this – sorry

This trend of waiting excessively long to marry is not new. As a young woman in college I was dedicated to my studies, yet also hopeful of perhaps meeting Mr. Right at some point. I spent a fair amount of time in the campus Newman Center to increase the odds of Mr. Right being Catholic.

What I discovered was that the 80s “Me Generation” mentality had infiltrated the minds of many eligible men in the general campus population. That was to be expected in those times. We ladies too were confused, at least I’ll speak for myself and say I certainly was, by the whole “do I want to try to ‘have it all,’ a career and a marriage and kids, or be ‘just a housewife’?”(as the feminist movement had been painting in drab and depressing colors beginning in our childhood and throughout our teenage years).

The rise in acceptance of cohabitation throughout the eighties and nineties to the present day, and the even more permissive “hookup culture” pretty much guaranteed that marriage would be seen as a burden rather than a blessing. Also, by this time, more and more men and women coming of age were products of families broken by divorce, and thus traumatized and gun-shy about any relationship commitment, let alone marriage.

But what puzzled me more was the proportion of young male Catholics who didn’t necessarily fit the hedonistic profile, yet were quite content to remain indefinitely single. (Maybe they were a bit intimidated by the fact that they were outnumbered by us females who probably gave off subtle and not-so-subtle husband-hunting vibes . . . and there were a few guys discerning priesthood.) This is finally being talked about more but it wasn’t in my day. See links such as these; a Google search for “Catholic men not marrying” will turn up even more.

uscatholic.org/dontwait

catholicgentleman.net/2013/12/get-married-young-man-dating-to-marry/

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2278/should_we_bring_back_young_marriage.aspx

catholicnewsagency.com/column/confirmed-bachelor-why-good-men-stay-single-1620/

Flash forward to the present . . .

Perpetual adolescence is a perennial problem, made worse now by the economic downturn of the aughts, which may serve to keep a young adult home with Mom and Dad. Even if living alone, the person is tempted to fritter away time in pursuit of entertainment and pleasure seeking. The easy availability of student loans can encourage some indecisive people to become “professional students” and then if and when they ever do emerge into the workforce they have tons of debt. Even the middle class view that young people must go to college and get established in a lucrative career before marrying and having a family is a well-intentioned idea that has been carried to an extreme that it shouldn’t have been if it’s causing people to want unrealistic perfection instead of being willing to grow through sharing the struggles of launching into adulthood and growing together as a result.

Many of today’s young women also appear to have picked up the drifting mode. Or they prefer to have babies whether to copy their friends having babies, to have something to love, from biological urges, many reasons. Being a single mom is difficult, and they surely have heard the birth control propaganda from schools, parents, and/or peers, but they set themselves up to get pregnant anyway (I’m not advocating they or anyone else use birth control, I’m advocating abstinence, just to be clear).

On EWTN and from my own pastor, I’ve begun to hear the message that the goal of marriage is getting one’s spouse and children to heaven. I love that. Wish it had been talked about when I was younger; lots of things would’ve made more sense if it had.

 

[Sarcelle]

Jumping in late, and with a warning – big long rambling post, there is so much to this – sorry

This trend of waiting excessively long to marry is not new. As a young woman in college I was dedicated to my studies, yet also hopeful of perhaps meeting Mr. Right at some point. I spent a fair amount of time in the campus Newman Center to increase the odds of Mr. Right being Catholic.

What I discovered was that the 80s “Me Generation” mentality had infiltrated the minds of many eligible men in the general campus population. That was to be expected in those times. We ladies too were confused, at least I’ll speak for myself and say I certainly was, by the whole “do I want to try to ‘have it all,’ a career and a marriage and kids, or be ‘just a housewife’?”(as the feminist movement had been painting in drab and depressing colors beginning in our childhood and throughout our teenage years).

The rise in acceptance of cohabitation throughout the eighties and nineties to the present day, and the even more permissive “hookup culture” pretty much guaranteed that marriage would be seen as a burden rather than a blessing. Also, by this time, more and more men and women coming of age were products of families broken by divorce, and thus traumatized and gun-shy about any relationship commitment, let alone marriage.

But what puzzled me more was the proportion of young male Catholics who didn’t necessarily fit the hedonistic profile, yet were quite content to remain indefinitely single. (Maybe they were a bit intimidated by the fact that they were outnumbered by us females who probably gave off subtle and not-so-subtle husband-hunting vibes . . . and there were a few guys discerning priesthood.) This is finally being talked about more but it wasn’t in my day. See links such as these; a Google search for “Catholic men not marrying” will turn up even more.

uscatholic.org/dontwait

catholicgentleman.net/2013/12/get-married-young-man-dating-to-marry/

catholicworldreport.com/Item/2278/should_we_bring_back_young_marriage.aspx

catholicnewsagency.com/column/confirmed-bachelor-why-good-men-stay-single-1620/

Flash forward to the present . . .

Perpetual adolescence is a perennial problem, made worse now by the economic downturn of the aughts, which may serve to keep a young adult home with Mom and Dad. Even if living alone, the person is tempted to fritter away time in pursuit of entertainment and pleasure seeking. The easy availability of student loans can encourage some indecisive people to become “professional students” and then if and when they ever do emerge into the workforce they have tons of debt. Even the middle class view that young people must go to college and get established in a lucrative career before marrying and having a family is a well-intentioned idea that has been carried to an extreme that it shouldn’t have been if it’s causing people to want unrealistic perfection instead of being willing to grow through sharing the struggles of launching into adulthood and growing together as a result.

Many of today’s young women also appear to have picked up the drifting mode. Or they prefer to have babies whether to copy their friends having babies, to have something to love, from biological urges, many reasons. Being a single mom is difficult, and they surely have heard the birth control propaganda from schools, parents, and/or peers, but they set themselves up to get pregnant anyway (I’m not advocating they or anyone else use birth control, I’m advocating abstinence, just to be clear).

On EWTN and from my own pastor, I’ve begun to hear the message that the goal of marriage is getting one’s spouse and children to heaven. I love that. Wish it had been talked about when I was younger; lots of things would’ve made more sense if it had.

Early marriage does not cure perpetual adolescence nor does extended singleness cause perpetual adolescence. I personally know professional singles in my extended family that have spent providing free medical and dental care to poor people both here in the US and abroad. That is not what perpetual adolescents do.

I know of a couple that have spent entire nights playing video games together. They have deliberately avoided kids because the kids might impair the lifestyle they’ve been accustomed to. They are not Catholic by the way.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Early marriage does not cure perpetual adolescence nor does extended singleness cause perpetual adolescence. I personally know professional singles in my extended family that have spent providing free medical and dental care to poor people both here in the US and abroad. That is not what perpetual adolescents do.

I know of a couple that have spent entire nights playing video games together. They have deliberately avoided kids because the kids might impair the lifestyle they’ve been accustomed to. They are not Catholic by the .

That’s absolutely true. Hubby and I are in many ways living an extended adolescence, as are many of our couple friends. We make no apologies for that. But doing it as a young married couple has really benefited us personally and financially, it will be to the benefit of our future children, and it has already allowed us to help our aging parents out in ways we probably wouldn’t have been able to as singles. That’s one of the reasons marriage is good for society.

As beneficial as it may be, I’m not sure we’re going go back to stark, boring, early adulthood with heavy responsibility at age 18 or 21. It’s a hard sell to go back once people see it can be put off indefinitely. But encouraging people to be open to early marriage (21-25) even if they still have a lot of growing up to do would be a step towards solving some of the economic and and personal struggles (loneliness, isolation, moving to a new city, etc) that so many millennials are dealing with and put them in a good position to buy a house or have kids when they finally are ready, rather than scrambling to find someone.

Before anyone panics, I’m not suggesting that “man children” and flighty, aimless young women get married to explore life together with no idea who they are or what they want. I’m just saying that the 24 year old med student and 21 year old nurse can get married without feeling pressure for a big apartment, 2 cars, and a kid right away. They can still live the lives they were going to anyway while pooling their resources, attacking debt, and saving. Or a 23 year old pipefitter apprentice and a 22 year old finishing up her education degree. You get the idea - people who are pointed in the right direction, but not necessarily established or hoping to be right away.

But women have been told that getting married will “hold them back” and men have been told they’ll only be “ready” for marriage upon “XYZ”.

 

[Sarcelle]

That’s absolutely true. Hubby and I are in many ways living an extended adolescence, as are many of our couple friends. We make no apologies for that. But doing it as a young married couple has really benefited us personally and financially, it will be to the benefit of our future children, and it has already allowed us to help our aging parents out in ways we probably wouldn’t have been able to as singles. That’s one of the reasons marriage is good for society.

As beneficial as it may be, I’m not sure we’re going go back to stark, boring, early adulthood with heavy responsibility at age 18 or 21. It’s a hard sell to go back once people see it can be put off indefinitely. But encouraging people to be open to early marriage (21-25) even if they still have a lot of growing up to do would be a step towards solving some of the economic and and personal struggles (loneliness, isolation, moving to a new city, etc) that so many millennials are dealing with and put them in a good position to buy a house or have kids when they finally are ready, rather than scrambling to find someone.

Before anyone panics, I’m not suggesting that “man children” and flighty, aimless young women get married to explore life together with no idea who they are or what they want. I’m just saying that the 24 year old med student and 21 year old nurse can get married without feeling pressure for a big apartment, 2 cars, and a kid right away. They can still live the lives they were going to anyway while pooling their resources, attacking debt, and saving. Or a 23 year old pipefitter apprentice and a 22 year old finishing up her education degree. You get the idea - people who are pointed in the right direction, but not necessarily established or hoping to be right away.

But women have been told that getting married will “hold them back” and men have been told they’ll only be “ready” for marriage upon “XYZ”.

But why marriage as a cure for isolation and loneliness? Friendships can also work.

Personally I do not want to go back to good old days where singles are shamed for being single.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

But why marriage as a cure for isolation and loneliness? Friendships can also work.

Personally I do not want to go back to good old days where singles are shamed for being single.

Totally not saying anyone should be shamed at all. I don’t believe that most people should ever marry. One of the best ways to lower divorce rates is for certain people to self identify as not good future spouses. Let’s face it, some people are just too selfish, quirky, or devoted to other passions or pursuits to give what marriage requires. No big deal and there should never be any shame in saying that marriage just isn’t for you.

But a lot of marriage minded people, religious and atheist alike, are told to wait, and wait, and wait, because marriage is “throwing your life away” (as I was told more than once) or “there’s so much else out there” (as though marriage = prison). And there’s really no need for this. Marriage and youth do not have to be either/or.