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spauline
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thanks, Ryan.well said spauline.
thanks, Ryan.well said spauline.
Hereās a few things cobbled together from Currie that might clear things up. The prophecies in Daniel, in the Transfiguration, in the Olivet Discourse, and in the trial of Jesus before the Sanhedrin all relate to 70 A.D. They all occurred within the generation that Jesus had promised. At the same time, 70 A.D. is also a prophecy of the final eschaton.Is this what Currie teaches? The Son of Man returned to Jerusalem in 70A.D. to bring judgement?
Whoās teaching more than 2 comings of Messiah now?
MORE BITS FROM CURRIEāS āRAPTUREāI am trying to fully fathom the 1,000 year reign(Revelation 20:1-6) being now, and not in the future, but I am stumbling over certain issues.
Verse 4 says, in part, āI saw the spirits of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God, those who had never worshipped the beast or its image nor accepted its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.ā The antichrist(beast), in my understanding, is yet to come. So, how can this thousand year reign be present tense, when people who will be in Heaven with Jesus for the time of this reign seem to be people of the future?
Also, if we are to view the devil as being chained up for a thousand years as being now, on the grounds that the Gospel is being spread, then will there be a time in the future, prior to the Second Coming of Christ, where the devil will be released(verse 3) and the Gospel not be able to spread? Where will the Catholic Church be at that time, if such a time exists? What Scriptures or early Church writings can be used to support the idea of such a time existing on Earth? Will infant Baptism cease to exist at that time? We are guaranteed that the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church(Matthew 16:18.)
There are obvious flaws to the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture, and obvious flaws to the idea of a future 1,000 year reign(āHe will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,ā not to set up an Earthly Kingdom, reign 1,000 years, and THEN judge the living and the dead.) So, no matter how I look at it, Revelation 20:1-6 has me confused. I realize that the Catholic position is that we are in the 1,000 year reign now, but can someone please explain my above questions? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but I just donāt get it. Thanks.
I read Currieās book. He didnāt say the Messiah came in 70 AD. He did note that 70 AD fullfilled Jesus prediction that the temple was destroyed. Since the most of the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah, they suffer greatly at the hands of the Roman soldiers.Is this what Currie teaches? The Son of Man returned to Jerusalem in 70A.D. to bring judgement?
Whoās teaching more than 2 comings of Messiah now?
I think the issue is that Christ promised the Sanhedrin they would see the Son of Man coming on the clouds to judge them. Since Currie points to this judgment as occurring in A.D. 70, in some sense Christ must have come to judge them.I read Currieās book. He didnāt say the Messiah came in 70 AD. He did note that 70 AD fullfilled Jesus prediction that the temple was destroyed. Since the most of the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah, they suffer greatly at the hands of the Roman soldiers.
The Catholic Church affirms that Jesus will come soon. When that happens, only the Father in Heaven knows.
Thanks for the clarification!I read Currieās book. He didnāt say the Messiah came in 70 AD. He did note that 70 AD fullfilled Jesus prediction that the temple was destroyed. Since the most of the Jewish nation rejected their Messiah, they suffer greatly at the hands of the Roman soldiers.
The Catholic Church affirms that Jesus will come soon. When that happens, only the Father in Heaven knows.
Yeah, but thatās one layer of meaning only. This discussion you give would have been more appropriate in the year 1307, rather than 2007. In 1300ās, the Churchās influence is at its peak, the then beast of pagan Rome is dead. But I have to break it to you, Ryan. The beast is back again. Along with the false prophet. Otherwise known as the utterly apostate kingdom of secular messianism and its associated belief that the very foundational morals of human existence (life and sex) can be ignored and that humanity will yet prosper.MORE BITS FROM CURRIEāS āRAPTUREā
First, those for whom thrones had been ācommittedā (20:4) An obvious reference to the Apostles who had been promised this in (Matt 19:28). The other group who rule are those martyrs who died during the battles with the beast, those āwho had not worshiped the beastā (20:4) They were also mentioned in (6:9-10) They petition for justice to be served on their oppressors, but also participate in dispensing it. They are given the opportunity to reign with Christ, alongside the Apostles. They are āsoulsā ruling. The resurection hasnāt occurred yet.
These martyrs are the saints who rejoiced at the defeat of āBabylonā the Temple (18:20) They affect history. The prayers of the martyrs affect events on earth. This isnāt in the future, itās right now. They are called the Church Triumphant. That is why we make requests of the saints in Heaven because they are ruling with Christ. If they take up our cause before Christ, it will more likely be accomplished (James 5:16) The Millennium is a present reality.
Hope that helps.![]()
I think it means that after Jesus comes again (The second coming) there will be 1,000 yearsI am trying to fully fathom the 1,000 year reign(Revelation 20:1-6) being now, and not in the future, but I am stumbling over certain issues.
Verse 4 says, in part, āI saw the spirits of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God, those who had never worshipped the beast or its image nor accepted its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.ā The antichrist(beast), in my understanding, is yet to come. So, how can this thousand year reign be present tense, when people who will be in Heaven with Jesus for the time of this reign seem to be people of the future?
Also, if we are to view the devil as being chained up for a thousand years as being now, on the grounds that the Gospel is being spread, then will there be a time in the future, prior to the Second Coming of Christ, where the devil will be released(verse 3) and the Gospel not be able to spread? Where will the Catholic Church be at that time, if such a time exists? What Scriptures or early Church writings can be used to support the idea of such a time existing on Earth? Will infant Baptism cease to exist at that time? We are guaranteed that the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church(Matthew 16:18.)
There are obvious flaws to the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture, and obvious flaws to the idea of a future 1,000 year reign(āHe will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,ā not to set up an Earthly Kingdom, reign 1,000 years, and THEN judge the living and the dead.) So, no matter how I look at it, Revelation 20:1-6 has me confused. I realize that the Catholic position is that we are in the 1,000 year reign now, but can someone please explain my above questions? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but I just donāt get it. Thanks.
I disagree and agree with you. It is just as important to understand that the eventās of 70 A.D. pertain to a 1,000 year millennium today as it did 700 years ago. I posted earlier that an event (70 A.D.) can be a prophecy of a still-future, final fulfillment.Yeah, but thatās one layer of meaning only. This discussion you give would have been more appropriate in the year 1307, rather than 2007. In 1300ās, the Churchās influence is at its peak, the then beast of pagan Rome is dead. But I have to break it to you, Ryan. The beast is back again. Along with the false prophet. Otherwise known as the utterly apostate kingdom of secular messianism and its associated belief that the very foundational morals of human existence (life and sex) can be ignored and that humanity will yet prosper.
Today, you need to emphasize more that faithful Catholics are the 144,000 who sing harps in the presence of the beast and false prophet, that is, in Revelation 14. For, behold, an even greater victory awaits those who receive not the mark: the SECOND conversion of the Gentiles, one in which Christians are reunited and the near whole of the human race, excepting the Jews, shall embrace the Gospel. That will be an even greater fulfillment of the casting of the beast into the fire than when Christ seized pagan Rome and cast it into the fire.
I canāt answer your first question regarding (Luke 23:34) My bibles footnote says āthis portion of the verse does not occur in the oldest papyrus manuscript and in other Greek oneāsā. Also, Iām speculating but itās hard to say who heās refering to. The people watching, the rulers, the criminals, the soldiers casting lots, or all of them? I donāt know.I have read the majority of David Currieās Rapture. What a wonderful book! I thank all of you on this board for recommending it to me. I find what it says to be highly plausible, and to illuminate various Scriptures and concepts with some history that I was previously unaware of. I am still left with one MAJOR dilemma, however, about these prophesies being about the destruction of the Temple (70A.D.) and the surrounding eventsā¦
How can we reconcile this theology that Christ prophesized that God would judge the Sanhedrin during the lifetime of the current generation with, āFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do?ā Also, what was the reason for this judgment? Is it that they ādid not recognize the time of their visitation?ā Or, is it that they worshipped the beast(Nero) and his image? Is it both? Is it B as a result of A? Can someone please clarify this matter? Thanks.
I guess what Iām talking about is, there are DEGREES of Christās reign, just as there are DEGREES of Christās reign in the individual saint. When the saint is in the purgative phase, he is not as holy as in the dark night of the soul, which is not as holy as martyrdom. In the purgative phase, the saint is suffering much physically. He is NOT resting, neither physically nor spiritually. In the illuminative phase, he is progressively understanding God better, and doesnāt have as much purgation. But his will is not entirely one with Godās. After the saint emerges from the primary dark night of the soul, he enters the unique unitive phase. In the unitive phase, his will is finally one with God, and there is really no more purgation or illumination. He knows God completely (as is possible on earth), and he doesnāt need purgation really becaus he is in the āperfectā stage.The most important thing to see is that Christ was victorious in 70 A.D., IS victoriously reigning in the millenium now, and will be victorious in the final battle. Christ āmust reign until He has put all His enemies under His feetā (1 Cor 15:25)
Glad you found Currieās book useful.I have read the majority of David Currieās Rapture. What a wonderful book! I thank all of you on this board for recommending it to me. I find what it says to be highly plausible, and to illuminate various Scriptures and concepts with some history that I was previously unaware of. I am still left with one MAJOR dilemma, however, about these prophesies being about the destruction of the Temple (70A.D.) and the surrounding eventsā¦
How can we reconcile this theology that Christ prophesized that God would judge the Sanhedrin during the lifetime of the current generation with, āFather, forgive them, for they know not what they do?ā Also, what was the reason for this judgment? Is it that they ādid not recognize the time of their visitation?ā Or, is it that they worshipped the beast(Nero) and his image? Is it both? Is it B as a result of A? Can someone please clarify this matter? Thanks.
You mean St. Ephraems pretrib rapture?Iām not trying to be difficult, and I am TOTALLY against John Darbyās pretribulational rapture, .
Hi spauline. We must be, and Iām interested in exploring this further.In the same way, Christ does not reign in the same DEGREE ON EARTH in the whole Church age. So I think we are talking past one another.
Iām a little confused on the idea of FULL and PARTIAL allegory, but Iām kind of understanding what youāre saying. Maybe if I respond to a few things, you can further clarify about allegory with a response.I think the difference between you and me is that you prefer a FULLY allegorical rendering of the text instead of a PARTIALLY allegorical rendering of the text. Yes, in a FULLY allegorical sense, we can say there has always been a Millennium since Christ Ascended. But not in a PARTIALLY allegorical sense. That is, in a partially allegorical sense, the degree of Christās victories are ever increasing. Yes, Christ reigns in Heaven during Rome, but the dragon is still in the process of being kicked out of heaven. Afterwards, the dragon is on earth, but certainly not chained. Only after the Chastisement that vindicates the dark night of the soul, is NT āidolatryā fully uprooted in Church history.