The 1,000 year reign

[spauline]

Hi spauline. We must be, and I’m interested in exploring this further.

I’m a little confused on the idea of FULL and PARTIAL allegory, but I’m kind of understanding what you’re saying. Maybe if I respond to a few things, you can further clarify about allegory with a response.
…
Looking forward to your response,

Ryan

Thank you for your gracious response. In order to respond fully, it may take several long responses. Many things to cover, and oh, time, if only I had more!

Let me say that your analysis of what I am suggesting is fairly accurate, in the sense of, a chastisement that temporarily restores humanity.

However, i still see the thousand years as figurative, in the sense that, if there is the great restoration and subsequent peace, the literal duration of the period is not the subject of the revelation, as Christ himself responded to the Apostles just prior to the Ascension, “it is not for you to know times or seasons.”

Secondly, I do not mean to say that the age of peace shall be an absolute utopia. For all of us must still carry the cross. HEnce, I would assume that natural disasters, accidents, disease, and other PHYSICAL evils shall continue as always in that period. hence, these shall make for plenty of crosses, and that, even beside the ordinary cross of modern family life or religious life. What is rather anticipated in the age of peace is that, humanity having been given a spanking of rather epic proportions, and yet emerging still alive, but, more importantly, having been taken in the arms of a Father who, even while still a long way off, does not condemn his poor child, the Gentiles, but says, “slaughter the fatted calf, and put a robe and a ring on the finger of precious one, for he was lost and is now found, was dead and is now alive”, that is, after having experienced the mercy of the Father in such epic proportions, literally, an *eschatological *experience of Confession, so then humanity will be, for the greater part, in a truly spiritual peace with God that shall never be again. In a word, humanity having gotten a terrible taste of the consequences of its errors, and yet reconciled to the Father in much the same way as the Jews did after the exile, they shall embrace the Gospel with such vigor, that there cannot help but be also TEMPORAL peace on earth, despite that problems from physical evil persist.

And yet, given Christ’s quote above coupled with “no one knows the day or the hour”, he also says, “when you see these things, know that he is near.” therefore there needs to be a balance to what will “known” and what will not be known.

…continued below…

 

[spauline]

… continued from above…

herein is really the problem of modern scholarship in this area. The Fundamentalist says, “we’ll know the literal calendar date of when and how temporal calamities will occur in the very end,” and the liberals emphasize, “no one knows the day or hour, therefore we know practically nothing, and probably never will.” As a consequence, the liberal takes the opposite extreme and applies the near totality of apocalyptic stuff to the very beginning of Church history.

Towards this end, let me digress on FULL versus PARTIAL allegory. And as a perfect example, let me discuss the Apocalypses’ clear counterpart, Genesis. In short, liberals would reduce Genesis to nothing more than FULL allegory, that is, a mere parable, when, in point of fact, the Church dogmatically recognizes at least the first three chapters of Genesis to be, effectively, PARTIAL allegory. Allow me to elaborate.

FULL allegory would imply that a text is nothing more than a completely fictitious story that illustrates a moral or spiritual truth, and that it is not, INTRINSICALLY, historical. PARTIAL allegory, on the other hand, would say that a given text is indeed “allegorical” but the very imagery itself speaks towards TRUE HISTORY. That is, it is truly concerning epic historical events, but describing them in FIGURATIVE fashion.

Let me give a more concrete example: it is entirely possible that the book of Jonah, could be, in effect, nothing more than FULL allegory, that is, that, ontologically, there never was a real prophet Jonah, who did all the things with the whale, etc., but that this is just a fictitious story that illustrates, amongst other points, that God even loves the Gentiles, in addition to the Jews.

But the same cannot be said of Genesis 1-3. Now, admittedly, we can see fully allegorical lessons from Genesis, for example, every time we sin, we “take” the fruit as Eve did. But we cannot say that Genesis 1-3 is just a fictitious story that illustrates what humans, both individually and historically, do over and over again. No, in some sense, Genesis 1-3 communicates DOGMATIC history. There are DOGMAS concerning the Creation, and what we must get from it, as well as the Fall. To reduce the Creation and Fall to mere parables and to say they are not history would be heresy, not to mention it would undermine the very foundation of our Catholic Faith. For as the CCC puts it, there cannot be the good news of Redemption without the bad news of the Fall. But, of course, Genesis communicates these epic historical developments in a FIGURATIVE fashion, and, hence, what we have here is PARTIAL allegory.

Similarly, there is no problem with saying the Apocalypse, as ONE layer of meaning, is a parable of the trials and victories that the Church, and the believer, goes through repeatedly, just as Eve’s taking of the fruit prefigures sin in general. But the apocalypse, like Genesis, CANNOT be relegated to MERELY a parable, for just as Man was in a TRUE state of Original Justice in the beginning of human history, so Man shall be in an INCURABLE manifestation of SIN at the very end. Yes, SIN has manifested itself tons of times in human history, yes, many, as well as in the Church Age. But behold, St. Paul implies in 2 Thess. 2 that God cannot go on drawing greater stages of Redemption from the fallen nature indefinitely. For at some point, the “Holy Spirit” shall be “gotten out of the way” PERMANENTLY, in a manner that the Gentiles will no longer be able to be restored to His Love, that they will be, in effect IRREVOCABLE enemies of God. The “mystery of iniquity“, then, involves the “mystery” of how far God can bring the Redemption before no further good can be drawn.

… continued below…

 

[spauline]

…continued from above…

So, herein is the fault of Currie, and derivatively, the preterists (AND the futurists). Considering these facts, knowing MICRO-TEMPORAL data of either the ending OR beginning of Church history is, at least, intrinsically, useless towards solving this mystery, for, in the end, knowing how the individual Gentile nations shall annihilate one another is useless. What is the entire issue is knowing HOW, … SPIRITUALLY, humanity becomes INCURABLE spiritually. HOW they destroy one another., when this condition is reached, is IRRELEVANT, seeing as they will destroy themselves because of their fallen nature cannot be restored to love of God. Knowing which of the limitless possibilities of political scenarios will occur is not the point. For, regardless, the end is self-destruction.

But so then, the data of preterism is not very much better. For would Salvation history be any different if the number of Roman Emperors in the Early Church had been 23 instead of 7? What does it really matter that 5 Roman Emperors died before St. John wrote? Or that the Parthians were a temporal threat to Rome? Or that the war of the Fall of Jerusalem was FIVE months? Do the five months have intrinsic value? No, for this is just like Hal Lindsay who said non-Jews at the end of the world will be tortured by helicopters for “literally five months.”

Rather then, to unlock the apocalyptic mysteries, the apoc cannot be viewed in merely the light MICRO-temporal orders of any phase of Church history. In the end, the clear path must be to discern the MACRO-SPIRITUAL ages of ALL Salvation, including the Church age. That is, just as Genesis, even though allegorically, describes the great “Ages” of Salvation history from the Creation to Moses, so Revelation, even though allegorically, communicates the remaining SPIRITUAL ages of the Church to the very end of human history, and their relationship and meaning to ALL of Salvation history, as well as WHY they go this way (spiritually and psychologically).

I will try to post more, Ryan. Let me know if this helps. I am not done, will post more, but feel free to ask any q’s as well.

I wish you spiritual blessings!

Scott

 

[pa226p]

there be a time in the future, prior to the Second Coming of Christ, where the devil will be released(verse 3) and the Gospel not be able to spread? Where will the Catholic Church be at that time, if such a time exists? What Scriptures or early Church writings can be used to support the idea of such a time existing on Earth? Will infant Baptism cease to exist at that time? We are guaranteed that the gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church(Matthew 16:18.)
There are obvious flaws to the idea of a pre-tribulational rapture, and obvious flaws to the idea of a future 1,000 year reign(“He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,” not to set up an Earthly Kingdom, reign 1,000 years, and THEN judge the living and the dead.) So, no matter how I look at it, Revelation 20:1-6 has me confused. I realize that the Catholic position is that we are in the 1,000 year reign now, but can someone please explain my above questions? I am not trying to be antagonistic, but I just don’t get it. Thanks.

Hello,

I am a new Roman Catholic and fairly new to the site. As far as the thousand years is concerned I believe in what the Church has to say. I used to be a Baptist and grew up when the book, Late Great Planet Earth was a big seller. The reason why I mention that is, with authors like Hal Lindsey and the other wac jobs out there, you have no choice but to read Revelation in a wooden literal since…. I believe what the thousand years represents is a time of general peace… of course we have had wars and millions die, but at the same time, we have never had a time in history before Christ where the “truth” would flourish as much as it has. The Catholic Church has over one-billion member’s world wide! What a great thing!

As far as the beast is concerned, I believe it was Rome in the time of the early Church. If you have noticed, the prophecy books on the shelves today all talk about the state of Israel, and how that is the key to our future. It is not, Israel was the whore of Babylon spoken of in the prophecies. Christ discarded the whore and took a new bride, the “Catholic Church,” this is the new covenant. So many people try and get visual pictures for Revelations, you don’t need to, it is very simple to read and understand. The early Christians understood and that is why they were able to flee Jerusalem before Titus destroyed it in AD 70…. Jesus also prophesied this. A lot of the Baptist and Pentecost have some kind of explanation for their view of the end times. They view it as the end of time, when it was meant to mean and end of an age.

A lot of folks say Revelation was written around AD98 or later. I say it was not, if it would have been written that late in time, the author “John” would have mentioned Titus destroying the temple, just as Jesus predicted. Modern day bible thumpers teach us we are waiting on a third temple… and that one will have to be destroyed to fulfill Jesus’ prophecy. Remember when Jesus was being led to the Mt. to be crucified…? A women was weeping for him, Jesus said “do not weep for me women, but for yourself.” Or something like that, I do not remember bible verses. Just remember, Revelation is just that, a revelation! The best thing we can do is not to look in Christian book stores for the answers, stay with what the Holy Church has to say and remember, we are in a new age.

In my personal opinion, most people are buying prophecy books and tapes trying to convince themselves of the truth…. I do not read too much about prophecy, now that I am a Catholic; I read all I can about the Churches history and its saints. As a former Baptist I was missing out. I was always taught it was a sin to pray for my dead grandfather who was Catholic, what a horrible thing, I was just waiting to die and hopefully I would see him again. Now that I am Catholic, I feel like the family never ends. If I pray using a Saints name, I’m not worshiping him, but communication with a brother or sister in Christ!

Ok, I’ll end.

 

[Lev23]

It is not, Israel was the whore of Babylon spoken of in the prophecies. Christ discarded the whore and took a new bride, the “Catholic Church,” this is the new covenant. .

“Discarded the whore?”
Lets see-

Jeremiah 31:31-37
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
declares the LORD,
“will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me.”
This is what the LORD says:
“Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,”
declares the LORD.

Acts 1:6-8
So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."

I see no “whore” rebuke or correction to the Apostles when they asked if the Kingdom will be restored to Israel.

Concerning Israel, there will always be a saved remnant.
Romans 11:1-6
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Verse 11 and 12 concerning the unsaved remnant of Israel-
** Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!**
How is the church making them envious today? Are we calling them “discarded whores” or do we tell them their Messiah has their sins covered and he is calling them to be his bride?

Again, verses 25-31 concerning unsaved Israel-
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, o they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. or God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Just read Romans 11 in its fullness and why not, try reading Hosea, that should fix your problem with this.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Revelations is probably the greatest source of headaches for man.

Revelation no (s)

 

[spauline]

In my personal opinion, most people are buying prophecy books and tapes trying to convince themselves of the truth…. I do not read too much about prophecy, now that I am a Catholic;*** I read all I can about the Churches history and its saints***. As a former Baptist I was missing out.
…
Ok, I’ll end.

but the Church’s history is precisely PART of Salvation history. Hence, a Catholic is absolutely free to believe that the Book of Revelation is not merely about the Early Church, but in fact her WHOLE history, in terms of SPIRITUAL subages. Yes, the Church age is the “final age”, but there are clearly SUBages. Hence, the age of the martyrs, the age of the initial Christological and Trinitarian heresies, the age of Islam, the age of the Great Schism, the Middle Ages, the age of the Protestant Rebellion, the age of the so-called “Enlightenment”, and the modern age, which is a minor apostasy. Spiritually, the world has not been the same over the last 2000 years. There are clearly SUBages. In light of this, I find it difficult to believe that all these developments have nothing to do with the history of Salvation, and that all we will ever know is that “the period between the first and last centuries is just the ‘milllennium’ and nothing more specific than that.”

 

[Lev23]

but the Church’s history is precisely PART of Salvation history. Hence, a Catholic is absolutely free to believe that the Book of Revelation is not merely about the Early Church, but in fact her WHOLE history, in terms of SPIRITUAL subages. Yes, the Church age is the “final age”, but there are clearly SUBages. Hence, the age of the martyrs, the age of the initial Christological and Trinitarian heresies, the age of Islam, the age of the Great Schism, the Middle Ages, the age of the Protestant Rebellion, the age of the so-called “Enlightenment”, and the modern age, which is a minor apostasy. Spiritually, the world has not been the same over the last 2000 years. There are clearly SUBages. In light of this, I find it difficult to believe that all these developments have nothing to do with the history of Salvation, and that all we will ever know is that “the period between the first and last centuries is just the ‘milllennium’ and nothing more specific than that.”

You still need to ask yourself- “Why is there a remnant of Israel saved by Grace right now?” Then take into consideration that the rest of Israel who are unsaved have not fallen so far that they cannot recover, but all can be saved, and that in the end, ALL Israel will be saved when Jesus comes from Zion.

Remember, Jesus never rebuked or corrected the Apostles when they ask him when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel.

There was so much Kingdom scripture in the Old Testament. It must of been wonderful for those Jewish Christians who knew their scripture to see that the Kingdom was revealed to be a 1000 years by Jesus in the prophecy book of Revelation.

 

[spauline]

You still need to ask yourself- “Why is there a remnant of Israel saved by Grace right now?” Then take into consideration that the rest of Israel who are unsaved have not fallen so far that they cannot recover, but all can be saved, and that in the end, ALL Israel will be saved when Jesus comes from Zion.

Remember, Jesus never rebuked or corrected the Apostles when they ask him when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel.

There was so much Kingdom scripture in the Old Testament. It must of been wonderful for those Jewish Christians who knew their scripture to see that the Kingdom was revealed to be a 1000 years by Jesus in the prophecy book of Revelation.

well, no I realize that the Jews will eventually convert, at the time of the very end. When I said that humanity will be incurable spiritually at the end, I meant the near whole of the Gentiles, not the Jews, whose eyes will be opened. Although, that will be the Ultimate end of human history. At that point, the Millennium is already past, and the Second Coming will be consummate with the destruction of the world, the Last Judgement, and the Resurrection of all men, both just and unjust.

 

[ryanoneil]

… continued from above…

herein is really the problem of modern scholarship in this area. The Fundamentalist says, “we’ll know the literal calendar date of when and how temporal calamities will occur in the very end,” and the liberals emphasize, “no one knows the day or hour, therefore we know practically nothing, and probably never will.” As a consequence, the liberal takes the opposite extreme and applies the near totality of apocalyptic stuff to the very beginning of Church history.

FULL allegory would imply that a text is nothing more than a completely fictitious story that illustrates a moral or spiritual truth, and that it is not, INTRINSICALLY, historical. PARTIAL allegory, on the other hand, would say that a given text is indeed “allegorical” but the very imagery itself speaks towards TRUE HISTORY. That is, it is truly concerning epic historical events, but describing them in FIGURATIVE fashion.

Hi again. Thanks for the explanation. I’m thinking more and more that we see things the same. Perhaps part of the problem is that I’m not explaining My/Currie’s position well enough. In light of the above quote I would say I do not see the Apocolype as FULL allegory. Just the opposite. The book of Revelation speaks to a specifically real event, that illistrates worldly/physical and Heavenly/spiritual truths, in an apocolyptic style.

Revelation speaks specifically of the Temples destruction and the SUBages you talk about. All these subages fall into the millenium. You are correct! “the period between the first and last centuries IS NOT just the ‘milllennium’ and nothing more specific than that.” As I’ve said before, an event can be a prophecy of a still future event, and we see this time and time again throughout history. The important thing is, Christ is reigning and salvation history continues.

Knowing MICRO-TEMPORAL data of the beginning of Church history is important for two reasons. Revelation has to be seen as fulfilled up to the beginning of the millenium or Christ becomes a liar, and look at all the far out predictions and ideas surrounding the Apocolypse.

First, Jesus promised the coming of the Son of man within a generation by stating, **“They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven with power and great glory. . . Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place” **(Matthew 24:30, 34) If Jesus didn’t live up to His word, this is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. But, Jesus is specifically speaking of His “coming” judgement of the Sanhedrin, as seen in Revelation.

Second, without understanding that we are in the millenium people have been trying to match modern events with individual verses in Revelation, in order to know how close we are to the end. They are saying crazy things like; Before Christ can return the Temple must first be rebuilt, so animal sacrifices can resume, so they can be stopped again, and . . . blah, blah, blah! I think many Protestants fear a current millenium because the only visable sign of it is the Catholic Church.

The fact is we are in the millenium. Much has happed in the Church age and who knows what will happen during the rest. I agree with the last paragraph you addressed to me. What Currie and I are saying is that Revelation up to where we are in the millenum, is in the past, while it can be a prediction of a still future event.

The only guarantee of things yet to come, happens at the end of the spiritual Kingdom over which Christ has ruled. Namely, the final eschaton. (Rev 20:7-10) One final confrontation between good and evil, the final judgement, the new Heaven and earth, and the New Jerusalem.

So, I see us agreeing on most everything. Feel free to comment, because I enjoy the dialog.

Ryan

 

[spauline]

So, I see us agreeing on most everything. Feel free to comment, because I enjoy the dialog.

Ryan

Thank you for your response. I also enjoy the dialogue. Yes, perhpas I need to rephrase. I think it would be better to recognize MULTIPLE LAYERs of meaning. Hence, preterism in entirely valid in its own right, as I suppose futurism might even be, as could mere idealism. And I guess shouldn’t have been as harsh in saying that “preterism is utterly useless.” Let me recant that, as I tend to get frustrated. Hence, instead of me saying, “preterism is useles”, I should state my opinion as “preterism is not as important as spiritual historicism.” For example, the implications for major Salvation history of the fact that the war in the fall of Jerusalem was “five months” is not nearly as important as “the Protestant rebelllion dealt a deadly blow to Christian unity, plunging entire large communities into the loss of FIVE sacraments and unleashing divsion and chaos that clearly served as the beginning of undoing the Christian faith altogether in the civs that intially had it.” Hence, the significance of Protestantism has far greater weight of meaning in Salvation history than that Jerusalem fell in five months. If it had been 23 months, would that alter the course of Salvatoin history? So i shouldn’t have said that the details of the destruction of the temple are utterly useless. what i should have said is, they are far less significant than the greater spiritual ages of the Church, precisely which are tied to ecclesiology, which is one of the central questions of PUBLIC revelation and dogma. Dogma doesn’t state: “Jerusalem fell in five months” nor would I see any reason that the Church would need to declare such a dogma, because, as a piece of temporal data, it’s practically useless. On the other hand, the Chuch defines, "“God gives sufficient grace to all schismatics, heretics, infidels, Jews, and pagans.” She DOGMATICALLY defines matters of ecclesiology. No where does Jesus say in the Gospels that Jerusalem would fall in five months, but he implies ecclesiology, when, in His Eucharistic Prayer, in John 17, he prays that “they may be one.” The CCC no where mentions that Jerusalem fell in five months, but it mentions “Wounds to unity, schism, heresy, scandal”, which are also in Scripture. In the normal Mass prayers, I have never heard the phrase, “and in five months, O Lord, you destroyed the Temple”, but in EVERY SINGLE EUCHARISTIC PRAYER, whether watered down or not but modern lectionaries, there is either an EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT reference to a prayer that CHRISTIAN UNITY increase.

So, here’s what I’m saying, Ryan. The TEMPORAL details of the Early Church may have had SOME MINOR significance for the Early Christians, but, in the grander scheme of things, they are NOT that important. Jerusalem FELL, and the NT age was born. Yes, THAT is monumental. But knowing TEMPORAL specifics of this? Is that really all that important? If you are orthodox, you cannot say these minor TEMPORAL details have the same implication toward the meaning of human history as ECCLESIOLOGY. Ecclesiology is of far more sweeping and mega implications for the salvation of the world.

So, I apologize for saying preterism is “useless.” But, an person who truly understands the Gospel in its core essence would never be content with preterism. A person with true wisdom in this area knows that there must be more, FAR more to this book, than that.

I will respond to your statement, “how much Church history remains, who knows?” later, as that seems to imply that I have not explained things well enough for you to understand what I am saying. In effect, this one statement for you, which reflects Hahn’s comment in the intro, betrays that you still do understand where I’m coming from.

 

[spauline]

About the second matter above, here’s why I don’t understand your statement, of “what remains in Church history, who knows?”

Therein is precisely where i get royally po’d at Hahn and Currie. Yes, currently, we do not know for sure what remains for Church history. But the phrase, “who knows?”, implies, don’t even bother to investigate.

allow me to elaborate, because I don’t think I’m explaining things right. Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that there will be a minor chastisement and that the world will be restored to faith. OK, fine. But then let’s suppose that 17 more of these apostasies followed by restorations will occur, and then, in the 18th time, say, just for example., that will be the final apostasy. Herein is where I think that the typical Catholic scholars dont’ think long enough about this, or look deeper.

The revealilng of the mystery of iniquity in the CCC and scripture implies that the Church will understand, at the time of the final apostasy, that it really IS the final apostasy. So, herein consider, if the 18th time of the apostasy is the final one, as per example, then the Church would somehow be able to recognize that the 18th is the last. And she will know this only from PUBLIC revelation, that is, Scripture and Tradition. that is, somehow, although not yet solved, the Scriptures and Tradition themselves must somehow, even if yet veiled, contain the key to understanding that mystery. From which, we can only conclude that, there must be a spiritual structure that delineates the ages of the Church from a theological perspective, in their totality, and not simply, there is a pattern that is repeated indefinitely, and only at some unknown point, there is final incurable manifestation.

In other words, what I’m proposing is, then, the spiritual structure of all salvation history, including the age of church, follows an order that is not merely a parable or a pattern, that is, in effect, the “number of apostasies” is limited, and NOT arbitrary.

and just to get to the point, let me throw this out: I think, through logic and common sense, the debate is between one or two. That is, either the modern age is the only apostasy, and therefore the final one, or else, there remains only one more, in between which lies a great SINGULAR restoration. reason I say this is really common sense. If humanity could be fall away a SECOND time and be brought back again, why not continue ad infinitum? I mean, if humanity can learn their lesson more than once, why not keep going. In that regard, it would then seem that, if there is more than one apostasy cured, would it not be arbitrary? for why would be it apostasy 18? or 23? I don’t think God is arbitrary. If he gives an epic learning lesson, it would seem that it would have to be singular.

But even beside this, do you understand what I’m saying?*** And I apologize for being harsh to you in the last post. I get frustrated, please forgive me, my dear brother.***

But what I’m saying is, what remains for the Church in her history, not in terms of LITERAL times, but of spiritual ages, DOES have importance, and considering that a significant apostate culture reigns, I would say that the Church needs to delve deeper into these questions, because the time is urgent.

And just for the record, I take the optimistic side. I absolutely have faith that God can restore humanity. but, again, my conjecture, after much meditation on PUBLIC Rev, is that this restoratoin will be singular.

But anyway, I apologize again for my harshness, and I pray that we can continue our dialogue.


scott

 

[ryanoneil]

And just for the record, I take the optimistic side. I absolutely have faith that God can restore humanity. but, again, my conjecture, after much meditation on PUBLIC Rev, is that this restoratoin will be singular.

But anyway, I apologize again for my harshness, and I pray that we can continue our dialogue.


scott

Hi scott,

Thank you for the apology, but I took no offense and hope I haven’t offended. I’m guilty of using the “who knows” and didn’t intend to put those words in someone else’s mouth. And I agree whole heartedly with seaching deeper in Scripture for more revelation.

I think the reason I’m so fascinated with the preterist aspect is, up till a short while ago I knew nothing about it. Then to see the prophecies in Daniel, Zechariah, (which I was also unaware of) and Jesus’ own words fulfilled in Revelation, absolutely floored me. I’m recently back to the Church after decade or so, and didn’t have great formation in the first place. So, I’ve gone from leaving as an adolecent to, returning as an adult. And let me tell you, I had no idea how much the Church has to offer.

So, I’m all about seeing how the Old Testament points to the New Testament, and how it all points to the present and future. The preterist understanding has truly been a personal revelation and proof that there is more to be discovered in Scripture. And I agree that more will be revealed as salvation history continues.

I need to formulate my thoughts and don’t have the time to do it now, but I want to say something, so I don’t loose my train of thought and have something to jog my memory.

Worlds in history have ended and continue to end, as will our American one. Isn’t it funny that all the Catholic lost to Protestantism during the reformation were regained in the Americas shortly there after. What about China?
The Temples destruction is more a type and I agree apostasies can’t go on forever. We see the battle plan of the lamb in Revelation and it is the Eucharist. Perhaps knowing the particulars of the Temples destruction will let us understand the particular spiritual structure that delineates the ages of the Church. It is amazing that the weeks of Daniel prophecy fit exactly with the event up through the Temples destruction. ix 415

Sorry about that mess. Hopefully I’ll have more time later.

Ryan

 

[spauline]

Hi scott,

Thank you for the apology, but I took no offense and hope I haven’t offended. I’m guilty of using the “who knows” and didn’t intend to put those words in someone else’s mouth. And I agree whole heartedly with seaching deeper in Scripture for more revelation.

Sorry about that mess. Hopefully I’ll have more time later.

Ryan

Dear Ryan,

thank you for accepting my apology, and for giving some background on you. I agree that in many ways, we see things the same. Yes, I agree that there are open questions, and we keep searching. I praise God that you are now back in the Church.

Welcome back and welcome home!

I look forward to continuing dialogue.

In Her Love,
Scott

 

[ryanoneil]

Dear Ryan,

thank you for accepting my apology, and for giving some background on you. I agree that in many ways, we see things the same. Yes, I agree that there are open questions, and we keep searching. I praise God that you are now back in the Church.

Welcome back and welcome home!

I look forward to continuing dialogue.

In Her Love,
Scott

Thank You Scott.

I don’t know how this all fits together, but the Israelites were enslaved to the Babylonians and Egyptians. God used their chastisement as an occasion to spread the knowledge of Himself and spread out His people. The Babylonian world and Pharaoh’s world came to and end. The Israelite world came to an end, as did the world of the Second Temple Jews. Was the Father destroying the God’s (or should I say demons) of these first two civilizations when the Jews brought Him with them? Which resulted in the civilizations down fall. I don’t know, so maybe someone could comment.

The same pattern appears to continue on into the New Testament age. The Roman world, the Byzantine world, and the North African world, came to an end. Considering the Temple was a piece of sacramental architecture that embodied the world as a microcosm, when I say the Temple’s destruction is a type for Human history itself coming to and end, it seems God is ending worlds on the installment plan. History was seen in covenantal terms, and God was consistant in dealing with His people in every age. He blesses us if we obey the commandments and curses us if we do not.

I mentioned the Native American’s world coming to an end, which was replaced by Christianity. (Did you ever see the movie Apocolypto?) The Soviet Union tried to stomp out all religion, and God destroyed it. So, it seems to me Christianity will continue to spread until all Humanity has had the chance to hear the Good News. It’s funny how all the new denominations that spring up and all the Catholics who leave for them, are replaced by Protestant who see the truth and want the fullness of the Church.

It has to be because of the Eucharist. It is Christ present in the world, body blood soul and divinity. It’s the new and everlasting covenant predicted in (Isaiah 55:3),(Ezekiel 37:26), and (Jeremiah 31:31, 33) Rember the strategy of the dragon was to promise earthly success to its allies through deceit and earthly power. Jesus counters with the Eucharist wich not only preaches the Truth, but supernaturally empowers us to adopt the mindset of the Lamb. And, this joins our hearts and souls in worship to the Church Triumphant as they celebrate the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Christianity keeps spreading because it’s the truth, even though some denominations are flat out lies. Catholicism containing the fullness of the Truth, is using the slippery slope effect, recieving Protestant converts as they continue spreading through out the world. I’m still working on how this all relates to the future. I’ve been wrestling with an idea that relates to the rapid spread of Islam and Mormonism, but I’m not ready to commint to it. So, that’s all I have for now. I’m going to mention the weeds growing with the wheat (Matthew 13) as a reminder for later. Talk to you soon.

Ryan

 

[spauline]

Dear Ryan,

thank you for the response. In effect, I largely agree. But even consider this: the way of the Jews is modeled after the way of the Catholic saint, which could then model the way of the Church historically.

Hence, the three ages of the Jews, as testified to by Augustine, seem modeled after the saint, and hence can be a type of the Church. The parallels are striking.

Languages Confounded at Babel, Languages Reunited at Pentecost

The purgation: Egypt, Pagan Rome

The Illumination and Kingdom: Israel and the Prophets, Catholic Christendom and her Magisterium’s doctrinal Development (The Big Split: North takes most of 12 tribes, true kingship remains in South in Judah. East takes most Apostolic Sees, true King remains in the West (Rome))

The Dark Night of the Soul : Pre-exile Jewish Apostasy, Modern Minor Apostasy

The Unitive, vindication of the Illumination: the Babylonian Exile and great restoration, the mystics’ Minor Chastisement and Glorious Catholic Renewal (yet future)

Martyrdom: OT antichrist Antiochus, NT Antichist and Great Apostasy

Crossing the threshold into heaven, the next age: the First Coming of Christ, the Second Coming of Christ

Yes, salvation history also goes on the path of the days of Creation, first darkness then light, then darkness, then light, etc.

Darkness: The Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
Light: The Flood and Cov with Noah

Darkness: Tower of Babel
LIght: Confounding of Languages and Calling of Abraham

Darkness: Egypt Enslaves
Light: The Exodus

Darkness: the pre-Exile unfaithfulness of Jews
Light: The Exile and Restoration of Old Cov

Darkness: OT Antichrist Antiochus
Light: Christ Comes the First Time

These are five “days”, even as some Fathers discern five ages of the Old Law (Augustine, Methodius). Three days remain for the NT, making a total of eight, just as the days of creation are extended to eight in tradition, and as the seven “kings” of the beast are extended to eight in Rev. 17.

I have all kinds of stuff on my blog and website, if you are interested in more, Ryan.

I pray that God continue to bless us as we search for meaning and mystery in God’s Word.

Scott

 

[look3467]

Ryan

You are getting there. I mean, you are getting out of the traditional thinking (Darkness ) to that of newer understanding.(light)

You will began to see a beautiful picture unfold as you continue on this path.

There is no need to worry, as you search God is with you all the way, your soul is well kept.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[ryanoneil]

Thank you AJ for the kind response. Thank You Scott for your post. After reading it once I’m intrigued. I’ll have to give it a few good reads to understand it better. I’m also going to go back to your website, when I get some more time, thinking that you cover alot of the same things there. I just read your reversion story, and it is very touching. Also, I saw your other post. Do you think we should “move the conversation there”?

talk to you later,

Ryan

 

[spauline]

Thank you AJ for the kind response. Thank You Scott for your post. After reading it once I’m intrigued. I’ll have to give it a few good reads to understand it better. I’m also going to go back to your website, when I get some more time, thinking that you cover alot of the same things there. I just read your reversion story, and it is very touching. Also, I saw your other post. Do you think we should “move the conversation there”?

talk to you later,

Ryan

Thank you for your kind response, Ryan. Yes, i suppose it might be better to move the convresation to the “preterism can’t be full implications” thread, as we are now diverging somewhat from this post’s initial subject, even though, alot of it is connected. If you’d like to do that, that would be fine.

I pray Blessings for you!

Scott

 

[look3467]

My blessings!

Peace>>>AJ