The 144,000 anointed ones

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Is there a lost tribe of Isreal today?

If so, then God could resurrect members of the old tribe.

If God is resurrecting that tribe, then it is possible he would resurrect all 144,000 from Jewish tribes who were of those tribes even before the watchtower came into existence in the 1900’s. 1950ish???
 
Is there a lost tribe of Isreal today?

If so, then God could resurrect members of the old tribe.

If God is resurrecting that tribe, then it is possible he would resurrect all 144,000 from Jewish tribes who were of those tribes even before the watchtower came into existence in the 1900’s. 1950ish???
I don’t believe there is a lost tribe of Israel today. But the JWs believe that the original tribe was replaced by them. They are Jehovah’s people now.

The 144,000 are those who lived and served during and after JC’s time, not before that. So none of the ones from the tribes.

(BTW, did you mean late 1800’s?).:confused:
 
Is there a lost tribe of Isreal today?

If so, then God could resurrect members of the old tribe.

If God is resurrecting that tribe, then it is possible he would resurrect all 144,000 from Jewish tribes who were of those tribes even before the watchtower came into existence in the 1900’s. 1950ish???
You might have to go jump onto one of the Morman threads for that answer. 😉
 
I think you’re all having too much fun with this. I haven’t heard anybody give a more reasonable interpretation of this scripture, you’re just poking fun at the JW’s.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God
If you find their interpretation unreasonable, I’d like to see you stick your necks out a little and explain it the proper way. Any takers? Or are you afraid to be mocked like you mocked the JW’s?
 
I think you’re all having too much fun with this. I haven’t heard anybody give a more reasonable interpretation of this scripture, you’re just poking fun at the JW’s. If you find their interpretation unreasonable, I’d like to see you stick your necks out a little and explain it the proper way. Any takers? Or are you afraid to be mocked like you mocked the JW’s?
I think GK Chesterton once said that St. John wrote about some pretty scary creatures in the Book of Revelation but that St. John never met anything as scary as the modern day commentators on the Book of Revelation.

That quote always makes me laugh since I spent most of my life as a JW and JWs base much of their endtimes theology on their rather unique (and scary) interpretations of the Book of Revelation.

Interestingly, the Book of Revelation was not widely accepted in the early church but eventually the Church did accept it as canonical. Most commentators (those less scary than the JWs) say that the book was written to comfort those Christians who were being persecuted at the end of the 1st Century A.D. and into the beginning of the 2nd Century A.D.

The book is full of Jewish symbolism that can be easily misinterpreted and as I am sure Chesterton would agree many of the commentators in his day and our day have really missed the point of this book of the Bible.

In any case, the Catholic understanding of Revelation 14 is as follows:

According to the Navarre Commentary the scene in Revelation 14:1 of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) on Mount Zion (Heaven) with the 144,000 (all Christians who make it to Heaven whatever that number might be) is one of hope and comfort to those Christians who were being persecuted by the Jews and the Romans simultaneously throughout the Roman Empire.

The JWs believe that this scripture teaches that only 144,000 people will get to heaven. However, the number 144,000 is symbolic; it represents 12 (as in the 12 tribes of Israel) X 12 (as in the 12 apostles) X 1000 (signifying a very large and complete number). In other words, the actually number of Christians in Heaven is too large to be counted but is complete as in God will not leave anyone behind. It was common in ancient times to use numbers to send a message and not necessarily to tell someone the exact amount of something. This is known as numerology and you see this quite often in apocalyptic literature.

In addition, the Jews understood the comment in verse 4 about virginity or chastity as referring to idolatry. Throughout Jewish history, the Jewish nation was referred to as Yahweh’s unfaithful spouse whenever the nation would leave Yahweh and begin worshipping idols. Since the Romans were trying to force Christians to worship the Emperor as God Almighty (which is the sin of idolatry), the comment that the 144,000 are virgins or are chaste is saying that only those who reject idolatry (Emperor worship) would make it to heaven.

As with any type of interpretation of scripture one must be familiar with the time period in which the book was written, the historical events that are occurring when the book was written, and the type of literature (as in narrative, poetry, apocalyptic, etc.) that the Book is. One does this so as to understand what the author is trying to say and how he is trying to say it.
The good commentators do this well. However, most cults such as the JWs do not do this at all when interpreting the Bible and this results in the scary things that GK Chesterton and others see and in some cases, like my own, live through.

I hope this helps.

Jeff S.

www.catholicxjw.com
 
I have heard that interpretation before. I think it was part of a Bible commentary program on PBS a long time ago. I thought it sounded pretty secular as it seems to strip the book of its prophetic meaning but I guess its part of the Catholic tradition. I don’t believe in the JW interpretation either but it does sort of hinge on whether or not the numerology was only figurative. I reject it because it does seem to fit any other scripture. It’s “Come unto me”, not “Be part of the first 144,000 that come unto Me.”

Anyway, you did give a reasonable interpretation, thank you!
 
I can do even better than Jeff. I would say that in another layer of meaning, the 144,000 are not merely the elect but those elect who remain faithful the Catholic Church’s Revelation throughout her whole history. For simply because a person is a “Christian”, or even that they make it to heaven, is not an assurance that they are FULLY protected in their INTELLECT (“forehead”) from being “harmed” by false doctrine. For certainly many devout Protestants have likely been saved and will be saved, but they do not have full protection of spiritual harm in their minds because they do not have the fullness of Christ’s Revelation, which can only be had in the RCC.

So, in my intrepretation, the trumpets are symbols not of literalistic physical calamities but of great spiritual disturbances that arise in the RCC history as attacks on the Sources of Divine Truth from Nicae to present, and the sealed ones who are not “harmed” are the faithful Catholics of this age, who are protected because of the infallible ark of the Church, the pillar and “ground” of the truth.

for a fuller synthesis, you could the complete elaboration:

the Seal, the Mark, and Everything in Between.

It’s long as hell, but good (IMHO 😛 ) if you have the patience.

Blessings!
scott
 
I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.
They also have more than 144,000 JW believers, which means there’s not going to be a lot of them getting to heaven. So they invented a second class of people saved, who’ll instead by immortal, but here on earth.
 
The real tragedy of the JWs is that those who convert give up their hope of seeing Jesus face to face (of the beautific vision) for a hope of having a nice house, a nice garden, nice pets, etc. This is the hope that most JWs have. It is a very materialistic hope. Their hope is to live in this paradise forever. They are not really immortal. The JWs are taught the following:
  1. There will be a Great Tribulation that will start shortly where the governments of the world will destroy all religion.
  2. When the governments attempt to destroy the JWs, God will step in and destroy them at the Battle of Armageddon. (These means that all non-JWs will be destroyed by God here according to them.)
  3. The JWs who have the heavenly hope will probably be in heaven not long after Armageddon.
  4. The JWs left behind will spend the next 1000 years working themselves back to perfection as Satan will be bound for this 1000 year period. They will also get to work the earth and make it into a paradise. So they will have to clean up all of the dead bodies of non-JWs left behind after the Battle of Armageddon and the Great Tribulation (Think about this as the world has about 6 Billion people right now and only about 6 million are active JWs).
  5. During this 1000 year period, God will begin resurrecting people who never had an opportunity to be a JW for whatever reason and these will now be brought back to life and taught how to be a JW (and of course they will help with the clean-up.)
  6. When the 1000 years is over, God will release Satan and allow him to test the JWs one last time. The JWs believe that some will still choose to reject the JW teaching at the end of the 1000 years and that these will be killed by God when they fail the test given to them by Satan.
  7. After the final test, those JWs who pass this test will live forever in paradise on earth but they could still die if they ever decided to reject the teachings of the JWs after the final test which the JWs are taught is still a possibility. (Note a popular scripture the JWs like to use is Revelation 21:4 to describe their paradise which says that ‘death will be no more’. The interesting thing is that when you get right down to it, the JW paradise still has death. So, to use this scripture to describe their paradise is really inaccurate.)
So, in reality the JWs who live on earth are not immortal. They do not have ‘life in themselves’. They can still die. Also, they do not appear to live in eternity or outside of time as God does. Plus, the JWs on the earth will never get to see God they will never have the beautific vision. But they will have nice homes, nice food, nice pets etc…

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
 
I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.
We do not decide it, God decides it and his spirit indicates to that person whether they are or not.

As to your second question: We take the Bible literally when it is meant to be taken literally.
It does not say that the 144,000 are virgin males.
The scripture says “These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.”

Those chosen as part of the 144,000 are not all males, females are included. Married ones also.

Now look at 2 Cor 11:2 "For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ. "

That is referring to their being the bride of Christ. Not literally but spiritually.

So to understand the Bible, one has to know all of it.

jwproclaimers.org
 
As to your second question: We take the Bible literally when it is meant to be taken literally.
It does not say that the 144,000 are virgin males.
The scripture says “These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins.”
Although I disagree with you because I believe it says virgin males, I’d like to know if you take the number (144,000) literally?

What happens to the millions of other JW’s?
 
We take the Bible literally when it is meant to be taken literally
Hi Sklemetti:

What do you mean by taking the Bible “literally”? And how does one know when it is appropriate or inappropriate to take the Bible “literally”?
Not literally but spiritually.
What does the comment above mean? In other words, how are you defining the words “literally” and “spiritually” in the context of your post above?

Thanks,

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
 
Hi Sklemetti:

What do you mean by taking the Bible “literally”? And how does one know when it is appropriate or inappropriate to take the Bible “literally”?
Great questions.

Maybe he thinks the Bible has little flags saying “Next bit to be literal…”
 
Hello sklemetti!!

Welcome to CAF! Thank you for your response. In fact, I knew what you, as a JW, would answer; I am married to one. However, I did want to see more answers since at home I don’t get many (to avoid arguments). After your response, my question is, Why do JWs take parts of the Bible so literally but other parts not?

For example in that same chapter you quoted it says:
Rev. 14: 1 - 5
1 1 Then I looked and there was the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, 2 and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound from heaven like the sound of rushing water or a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth. 4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins 3 and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb. 5 On their lips no deceit 4 has been found; they are unblemished. 6 5 Then I saw another angel flying high overhead, with everlasting good news 6 to announce to those who dwell on earth, to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people.
So, then, why only take the 144,000 literally and not the rest of the verses? ie. verse 4. You only choose to take some parts literally. In fact, these “144,000” then would be Jewish men. Why not take that part literally? Why not take verse 4 literally?

What about Rev 7: 4-9?
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked 4 from every tribe of the Israelites: 5 twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, 5 twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad, 6 twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar, 8 twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin. 9 After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6 in their hands.
Are these the same 144,000 which are mentioned in chapter 14? Why ignore the fact that the Bible mentions all these tribes? What about the great multitude?

Do you personally think that God, or Jehovah, as you call him, would actually let all most of his children die (the ones that are not JWs)? Or be destroyed forever?

Why is hell described and the WBTS ignores it?
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:41, 46)

They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9).

“And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name” (Rev. 14:11)
It’s not annihilation. It’s not the Gehena where bodies were dumped outside Jerusalem.

Why take this literally? It is mentioned more than once. And the words are very specifif, ETERNAL FIRE, ETERNAL DESTRUCTION, ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, FOR EVER AND EVER, NO REST.

If someone is just annihilated, they don’t suffer, they actually rest. The Bible clearly says they will have NO REST.

Do you care to explain that to us?

Hope you come back and explain.
 
I keep on wondering about the way the JWs decide on who is a member of the anointed class.

My DH told me that these people just know the are of the anointed class. So if I wanted, I guess I could say I’m one of the anointed ones and they’d believe me, that is, if I were a JW?

So, how can the JWs take the Bible so “literally” in some ways, and not in others? The Bible does say there are 144,000 who are virgin males… but yet, they JWs don’t seem to care about the virgin male part of the verse.
This is a video seminar about the 144,000 to try and clear up any misconceptions.

mostamazingprophecies.com/portals/6/mapmedia/map_10.asx
 
Out of all the denominations, the JWs scare me the most.
 
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