The 2012 GOP Presidential Field Is Set

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Nobody is trying to bully you, we’re trying to make you aware of a direct conflict between what the Church’s teachings are and what Pope Benedict and Bishops have said and between the Democrat party and Obama.
To be fair, I could dissect the Republican Party platform with regards to other elements of Church doctrine, but none of them are as essential as the right to life and the sanctity of marriage, which the Republican party has right.
 
No one is trying to bully you into voting Republican. Merely pointing out as a Catholic you can not vote for a pro-abortion canidate. The Church hasn’t gone astray- pro- choice Catholics have
Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger said in July 2004 on the subject of voting for a political candidate who is pro-choice:

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

I and most Catholics who vote for Democratic candidates, do not do so precisely because they support abortion or euthanasia. If you disagree with the candidate regarding pro-life issues, but agree with them with regard to other issues, you can vote for that candidate “in the presence of proportionate reasons.” Now, if Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI had intended to say that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-choice candidate, he had the opportunity to do so.

Some would adopt a less nuanced position and disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger, thinking that no one could ever come up with good enough reasons to vote for President Obama or other Democratic candidates. However, they would be following their own thinking, not that of the Church.

I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election. Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn’t even a close call.
 
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  I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election.  Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn't even a close call.
How do you square your support for a candidate who wants to keep the act of sucking unborn babies out of the womb with a vacuum legal, and the above statement? Do you seriously think that there is a more important issue than protecting the unborn currently? What, school lunches for kids? Please let us know what “proportional reasons” you have for supporting the most pro-abortion president in history.

Ishii
 
How do you square your support for a candidate who wants to keep the act of sucking unborn babies out of the womb with a vacuum legal, and the above statement? Do you seriously think that there is a more important issue than protecting the unborn currently? What, school lunches for kids? Please let us know what “proportional reasons” you have for supporting the most pro-abortion president in history.

Ishii
Shouldn’t it be the case that Catholic women should show the way to others in society with regard to contraception and abortion? However, is it not true that the percentage of Catholic women who either use contraception or who abort is roughly the same as in the population at large?
guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html
speroforum.com/a/19469/Religious-women-more-likely-to-abort-than-not
 
I personally do not go by one particular picture of a candidate and make my decision on that one picture. I look at the honesty of the candidate: Has he been indicted for ethics violations, is he a solid family man (or woman) in actual real life, is he honest enough to refuse to accept huge million dollar compensation from a company who he has been criticising?
“Yet another proof”

So, in one of the debates me and my roommate BOTH agreed that Bachmann’s face looked like it was out of a comic book, while everyone else looked normal.

Furthermore, I can assure you that my opinion stems from at least 5 other pictures. I recall that Newsweek printed her on the cover. And she looked crazy. And they got flak. Then, they produced 4 more pictures that they DIDN’T USE. Those 4 pictures they didn’t use, she looked even worse.

Those were worse than the cover, in which conservatives complained and said the magazine tried to make her look crazy. Well… they exhonerated themselves by proving, “yeah, Michelle Bachmann looks crazy in a lot of her pictures”.
Have a look at the newsweek pictures here if you don’t believe me:
thedailybeast.com/newsweek/galleries/2011/08/08/michelle-bachmann-newsweek-cover-photos.html

Moving over to Newt. He didn’t “accept compensation”. He earned money. I would love to earn money from a company I want to destroy for simply telling them that their business model is awful and they do a horrible job. For that he got $17k a month for several years.

The real fat cats who were behind the terrible business strategy, they got millions per year. So, by the sheer amount alone we know Newt’s word is right. $1.6 million from 2002 to at least 2006?
 
“Yet another proof”

So, in one of the debates me and my roommate BOTH agreed that Bachmann’s face looked like it was out of a comic book, while everyone else looked normal.

Furthermore, I can assure you that my opinion stems from at least 5 other pictures. I recall that Newsweek printed her on the cover. And she looked crazy. And they got flak. Then, they produced 4 more pictures that they DIDN’T USE. Those 4 pictures they didn’t use, she looked even worse.

Those were worse than the cover, in which conservatives complained and said the magazine tried to make her look crazy. Well… they exhonerated themselves by proving, “yeah, Michelle Bachmann looks crazy in a lot of her pictures”.
Have a look at the newsweek pictures here if you don’t believe me:
thedailybeast.com/newsweek/galleries/2011/08/08/michelle-bachmann-newsweek-cover-photos.html

Moving over to Newt. He didn’t “accept compensation”. He earned money. I would love to earn money from a company I want to destroy for simply telling them that their business model is awful and they do a horrible job. For that he got $17k a month for several years.

The real fat cats who were behind the terrible business strategy, they got millions per year. So, by the sheer amount alone we know Newt’s word is right. $1.6 million from 2002 to at least 2006?
It is curious that some of those who support Gingrich accept the way that the media is portraying Michelle Bachmann in unflattering photos which they say make her look bad. I don;t think she looks bad at all. I would say she looks great next to some of the other candidates.
 
It is curious that some of those who support Gingrich accept the way that the media is portraying Michelle Bachmann in unflattering photos which they say make her look bad. I don;t think she looks bad at all. I would say she looks great next to some of the other candidates.
  1. My support of Newt Gingrich has nothing to do with my opinion that I find Michele Bachmann to be crazy. And, I take issue with you saying the media makes me think this. Michele Bachmann surged back in June and July. I’ve watched probably all of the Republican debates give or take 2 or 3. I’ve seen her, and the rest of the candidates “un-edited” as Newt would say. I liked Newt the best. And, honestly, I would vote for Bachmann as my 6th favorite (ahead of the 2 mormons). I’ve made up my mind, with my own eyes, that she is crazy.
  2. While I have had months to make my mind up about Bachmann being crazy. The whole story about Gingrich working for Freddie Mac has been widely covered for 2 days. And, it’s been out there (in a small way) since the CNBC debate… so it’s been out there for maybe a week.
So, between you and me, who’s buying what the medias selling? I think, in fairness, you’d have to agree that Bachmann was vetted 6 months ago. Gingrich is being vetted now.

So, between X opinion on Bachmann or Y opinion on Gingrich, which one would be more influenced by the 24-hour-news-cycle? I would like that question answered.
 
I
Democrat Party vs Republican party platform:
It’s true that the Republican Party Platform on those vital moral issues is better. Unfortunately, I do not believe any of the mainstream candidates really believe in the platform or have gone out on a limb to advocate those issues in a substantive way. They simply pay lip service. So you’re left with a directly morally evil party, democrats, or a deceptive evil party, republicans. No thanks.

However, Mitt Romney’s hair should get an honorable mention. I suspect it will give him 5 percentage points alone in the general election. On the other hand, it wasn’t enough to save John Edwards…
 
Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger said in July 2004 on the subject of voting for a political candidate who is pro-choice:

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

I and most Catholics who vote for Democratic candidates, do not do so precisely because they support abortion or euthanasia. If you disagree with the candidate regarding pro-life issues, but agree with them with regard to other issues, you can vote for that candidate “in the presence of proportionate reasons.” Now, if Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI had intended to say that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-choice candidate, he had the opportunity to do so.

Some would adopt a less nuanced position and disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger, thinking that no one could ever come up with good enough reasons to vote for President Obama or other Democratic candidates. However, they would be following their own thinking, not that of the Church.

I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election. Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn’t even a close call.
You can not use that quote from Pope Benedict as an excuse for you or other Catholics to vote for Obama, because the definition of reasons specified as “proportionate reasons” are not given.

Bishop Emeritus Rene Henry Gracida of Corpus Christi, Texas, issued a statement explaining “proportionate reasons”:

*When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons strictly defined.
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Since abortion and euthanasia have been defined by the Church as the most serious sins prevalent in our society, what kind of reasons could possibly be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion? None of the reasons commonly suggested could even begin to be proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for such a candidate. Reasons such as the candidate’s position on war, or taxes, or the death penalty, or immigration, or a national health plan, or social security, or aids, or homosexuality, or marriage, or any similar burning societal issues of our time are simply lacking in proportionality.

There is only one thing that could be considered proportionate enough to justify a Catholic voting for a candidate who is known to be pro-abortion, and that is the protection of innocent human life. That may seem to be contradictory, but it is not.

Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: Candidate A, who is completely for abortion-on-demand, Candidate B, who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion, and Candidate C, a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable. The Catholic voter cannot vote for Candidate A because that would be formal cooperation in the sin of abortion if that candidate were to be elected and assist in passing legislation which would remove restrictions on abortion-on-demand. The Catholic can vote for Candidate C but that will probably only help ensure the election of Candidate A. Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for Candidate B, since his vote may help to ensure the defeat of Candidate A and may result in the saving of some innocent human lives if Candidate B is elected and votes for legislation restricting abortion-on-demand. In such a case the Catholic voter would have chosen the lesser of two evils which is morally permissible under these circumstances*.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6159

Candidate A is Barack Obama and thus a Catholic voter cannot vote for Barack Obama. If a Catholic votes for Obama, in the Bishops words you are ‘‘cooperating in the sin of abortion,’’ because none of the GOP candidates are as pro abortion as him and they have pro life records.
 
Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger said in July 2004 on the subject of voting for a political candidate who is pro-choice:

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

I and most Catholics who vote for Democratic candidates, do not do so precisely because they support abortion or euthanasia. If you disagree with the candidate regarding pro-life issues, but agree with them with regard to other issues, you can vote for that candidate “in the presence of proportionate reasons.” Now, if Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI had intended to say that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-choice candidate, he had the opportunity to do so.

Some would adopt a less nuanced position and disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger, thinking that no one could ever come up with good enough reasons to vote for President Obama or other Democratic candidates. However, they would be following their own thinking, not that of the Church.

I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election. Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn’t even a close call.
Proportionate rEason has been explained repeatedly by the Church as a candidates opponent being more pro- abortion than they are. If you can fin one single member of the Magestruim that supports you definition please Do so. As usual in these discussions one side posts voluminous documentation of Chirch teaching while the other side posts opinions and out of context snippets that they demand we accept their personal interpretation of.
 
Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger said in July 2004 on the subject of voting for a political candidate who is pro-choice:

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons,** it is considered remote material cooperation**, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

I and most Catholics who vote for Democratic candidates, do not do so precisely because they support abortion or euthanasia. If you disagree with the candidate regarding pro-life issues, but agree with them with regard to other issues, you can vote for that candidate “in the presence of proportionate reasons.” Now, if Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI had intended to say that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-choice candidate, he had the opportunity to do so.

Some would adopt a less nuanced position and disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger, thinking that no one could ever come up with good enough reasons to vote for President Obama or other Democratic candidates. However, they would be following their own thinking, not that of the Church.

I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election. Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn’t even a close call.
You are still guilty of material cooperation in the continuation of abortion. I hope that sits well with you. So, like I said, which of the other reasons makes the Democrats more appealing, in light of their glowing support of the right to kill the unborn? Same Sex Marriage? Disregard of personal property rights? Embryonic Stem Cell research?
 
Here’s what Cardinal Ratzinger said in July 2004 on the subject of voting for a political candidate who is pro-choice:

“A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s stand in favour of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”

I and most Catholics who vote for Democratic candidates, do not do so precisely because they support abortion or euthanasia. If you disagree with the candidate regarding pro-life issues, but agree with them with regard to other issues, you can vote for that candidate “in the presence of proportionate reasons.” Now, if Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI had intended to say that there are no proportionate reasons to vote for a pro-choice candidate, he had the opportunity to do so.

Some would adopt a less nuanced position and disagree with Cardinal Ratzinger, thinking that no one could ever come up with good enough reasons to vote for President Obama or other Democratic candidates. However, they would be following their own thinking, not that of the Church.

I a pro-life, but I am also a Democrat and I will vote for Obama in the upcoming Presidential election. Compared with the Republican candidates, that isn’t even a close call.
Alan, thank you for explaining voting so well in your recent posts. And for then Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement.

From the USCCB “Faithful Citizenship” guide: “It does not offer a voters guide, scorecard of issues, or direction on how to vote”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=604259
 
Newt Gingrich: MSNBC “Essentially The Obama Re-Election Team”

realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/17/newt_gingrich_msnbc_essentially_the_obama_re-election_team.html

Romney: “I Am Not Going To Walk Away From” RomneyCare

“If it hurts me politically, it’s a consequence of the truth. I am not going to walk away from that. It’s right for states to come up with their own solutions. I doubt other people are going try and follow the one we put together. Maybe learn from our experience. Maybe come up with something better. But the wrong course is to have the federal government impose its will on the entire nation,” Mitt Romney said about RomneyCare on FOX News this afternoon.

realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/17/romney_i_am_not_going_to_walk_away_from_romneycare.html
 
Man I’m really liking this guy. 👍
Romney: “I Am Not Going To Walk Away From” RomneyCare
“If it hurts me politically, it’s a consequence of the truth. I am not going to walk away from that. It’s right for states to come up with their own solutions. I doubt other people are going try and follow the one we put together. Maybe learn from our experience. Maybe come up with something better**. But the wrong course is to have the federal government impose its will on the entire nation,” **Mitt Romney said about RomneyCare on FOX News this afternoon.
👍 Good for him. 👍
 
Romney: “I Am Not Going To Walk Away From” RomneyCare

“If it hurts me politically, it’s a consequence of the truth. I am not going to walk away from that. It’s right for states to come up with their own solutions. I doubt other people are going try and follow the one we put together. Maybe learn from our experience. Maybe come up with something better. But the wrong course is to have the federal government impose its will on the entire nation,” Mitt Romney said about RomneyCare on FOX News this afternoon.

realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/17/romney_i_am_not_going_to_walk_away_from_romneycare.html
This isn’t the first time that Romney has articulated this position, and I agree with him 100%. There is nothing inconsistent about supporting a state solution but opposing the same solution at the federal level. It is an example of the principle of subsidiarity.

I always ask my liberal friends if they are in favor of health care mandates from the UN? An international healthcare system? Why not, right? I mean if Canada’s system is so fantastic, they should just make an international version and force all the countries to adhere to it. 🤷
 
Anybody who is using this quote from Pope Benedict to justify voting for Obama or a pro abortion candidate does not understand what ‘‘proportionate reasons’’ mean.

Here are explanations for what ‘‘proportionate reasons’’ are in Catholic moral theology.

Bishop Rene Henry Gracida, of Corpus Christi Texas, explained in September 2004

Consider the case of a Catholic voter who must choose between three candidates: Kerry, who is completely for abortion on demand, Bush, who is in favor of very limited abortion, i.e., in favor of greatly restricting abortion and Peroutka, a candidate who is completely against abortion but who is universally recognized as being unelectable. The Catholic can vote for Peroutka, but that will probably only help ensure the election of Kerry. Therefore the Catholic voter has a proportionate reason to vote for Bush, since his vote might help to ensure the defeat of Kerry and might result in the saving of some innocent human lives.”

Bishop Robert J. Carson
If one had a properly formed conscience admitting the grave evil of abortion and euthanasia, as the Church teaches, and does not share a candidate’s stand in favor of abortion and euthanasia, but votes for the candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation which can be permitted, Cardinal Ratzinger states, if proportionate reasons are present, e.g.,* the candidate would limit abortions**.*
Bishop Joseph A. Galante
Note that "proportionate reasons’] does not mean simply weighing a wide range of issues against abortion and euthanasia and concluding that they cumulatively outweigh the evil of taking an innocent life. Rather, for there to be proportionate reasons, the voter would have to be convinced that the candidate who supports abortion rights would actually do more than the opposing candidate to limit the harm of abortion or to reduce the number of abortions.

Fr. Stephen S. Torraco, PHD

“Proportionate reasons” has a very specific meaning in Catholic moral teaching. A proportionate reason [to vote for pro-abortion candidates] would be the desire to avoid supporting an equally grave or graver intrinsic evil, and not just for any reason at all. An intrinsic evil is an evil that cannot be morally justified for any reason or set of circumstances. So, for example, capital punishment is not a proportionate reason. A candidate’s stand on economic issues is not a proportionate reason.

Arthur Hippler, PHD
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*This could not mean . . . that support for a pro-abortion . . . candidate could be justified by his support for economic proposals, whether of a ‘conservative’ or ‘liberal’ character. The protection of life is greater than the protection or redistribution of wealth [CCC #2197-2198]. **Cardinal Ratzinger had already affirmed the priority of protecting innocent life when he stated that ‘not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia**.

**Cardinal Ratzinger’s remark would have to mean that support for a pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia candidate could only be licit where the alternative was more detrimental to the defense of innocent life**. A candidate who supports legal abortion with a number of restrictions would be proportionately better than a candidate who supports abortion “on demand.”*
 
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