The 3 Beast of Rev. 13

[spauline]

Thank you for your kind reply. I understand that the book of Revelation has value and any one who has read Scott Hahn’s Lamb’s Supper can attest to it. I also understand that there are deeper questions for the Church to figure out. But who within the Church should be concerned with trying to figure it out? Should I be concerned? I am just an IT technician and a husband and a father. I am not a theologian entrusted by the Cht urch, nor am I a bishop entrusted by the Church. I guess all I am saying is, let the right people worry about the mysteries that still need to be unraveled. I am not saying that the sheep should never focus, I just don’t think we have to focus on it all the time.

If you don’t think Catholics dwell on it, I should just tell you of my in-laws. Two of my wife’s aunts had a family meeting to discuss somebody’s private revalation of the things that need to come. Alot of it was about some “locutionist” named John Leary who although appears to be a devout traditionalist actually has been censured by the Church. And why - because he preached millenialism and claimed that Jesus said the next pope would be a heretic and not to listen to him.

I guess the whole point of my post would be - we should all know our place. Until by some divine intervention, I become a theologian or until some mega ultra divine intervention comes around and I become a priest and then a bishop or a pope himself, I won’t focus on it - as much.

Actually, I think you are right. It is not given to everyone to look into questions of unresolved theology. There is One Spirit, but different gifts. So please forgive me, Prime, I understand that each of us has been called in a unique way to serve the faithful, and so, admittedly, everyone cannot be a theologian.

And I would agree that if one is not Catholic, one should really not get into the Book of Revelation, for if it is about the ultimate spiritual Plan for the Redemption of humanity, and since the RCC is now the very vehicle for this, one will never fully understand this Plan if one is not Catholic.

Hence, Protestants can only go so far in understanding it. I don’t know, I guess I’m just one of the apoc nuts ( !) that gets into it.

But, anyway, I agree, to each his own, One Spirit, different gifts.
Bless you, P Prime au 76!

 

[pprimeau1976]

No, No, Bless You!

Your post actually makes me fire some of my neurons!!!

Thanks and have a happy easter!!

 

[spauline]

No, No, Bless You!

Your post actually makes me fire some of my neurons!!!

Thanks and have a happy easter!!

Thank you! And a Happy and Blessed Easter to you as well!

 

[Exalt]

**IMHO, you need to stop viewing the Book of Revelation through the wrong end of the telescope. Flip it around. Stop looking into the big literal lense and start examining the Book through the smaller metaphorical lense. **

shrug

It’s just a book. It was written with a specific purpose, in a specific time, to a specific community. It seems pretty clear that the Biblical Scholars (i.e., the editors of the Catholic Study Bible, for instance) are right on this one. The vast majority of Revelation isn’t talking about the end of the world as we would understand it. It’s talking, in vieled, polyvalent language, rich in references and allusions to the Hebrew Bible, about Rome, Christian believers, the conflict between them, and the Christian faith as a whole. Only the last few chapters talk about the end of the world as we would understand it.

 

[tabcom]

(Revelation is) talking . . . about Rome, Christian believers, the conflict between them, and the Christian faith as a whole.

**The 1st beast did not begin in babylon. It does not end with the Roman Empire. The 1st beast started in the garden. It is a world ruling system that throws out God’s Law by putting in doubt what He said.

Gen 3:1 -
Now the serpent (false teacher or 2nd beast) was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

The 3rd beast started in Gen 11:4:
They (in Babel) said, “Come, let us build for ourselves a city, and a tower whose top {will reach} into heaven, and let us make for ourselves a name, otherwise we will be scattered abroad over the face of the whole earth.”

name - Hebrew: Shem- honor; authority

It, the beast, will remain a part of this world until the end of time.

Recognizing the signs of the end times strengthens my faith in the return of Christ.

Mt 24:27 -
"For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

coming - Greek: parousia (par-oo-see’-ah) - physical arrival.

Exalt . . . I encourage you to keep studying. It has taken me three years of about 1.5 hours a week to get to this point in my study.

Respectfully submitted, tabcom

**

 

[tabcom]

**To review . . .

the 1st beast is an ‘it’, not a ‘him’; and that ‘it’ is the worshiping of self above God. The 2nd beast is false teachers that preach the message of fulfill self and that God loves everyone and that you don’t have to do anything to accept Christ.

Turning to the 3rd beast of Rev. 13 . . . .

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech – they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name

* language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.
* speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment

city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (called a mountain)

* name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

Genesis 3:1,5 – The serpent was more subtil than any beast – (the serpent said) in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and “ye shalt be as gods” –

The sin of the harlot (self-worship) started with Eve and the original beast (the serpent). He ruled Eve and Adam by causing them to move the boundary of God (thou shalt) taking in forbidden boundary (thou shalt not). This established a new law of self-esteem (pride). Eve, the original harlot (idolator), rode upon the beast (serpent), polluting the people (Adam). After the flood, Nimrod reinstituted, at Babel (Babylon), the rebellion of Eden, setting up a new boundary (city and tower), and a new commandment (name or authority). Pride (let us make a name) is the foundation of “all” idolatry (spiritual harlotry) that has polluted the world for all time. It is the system of self-worship. (Repent means to turn from self to God). Babel began a series of “world order” beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). America has dispensed with icon (statue) worship and retained the “self-esteem” (pride) system of Rome/Babylon and is polluting the world with it. Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of “self-esteem” and “pride”. (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2). **

 

[Lev23]

shrug

It’s just a book. It was written with a specific purpose, in a specific time, to a specific community. It seems pretty clear that the Biblical Scholars (i.e., the editors of the Catholic Study Bible, for instance) are right on this one. The vast majority of Revelation isn’t talking about the end of the world as we would understand it. It’s talking, in vieled, polyvalent language, rich in references and allusions to the Hebrew Bible, about Rome, Christian believers, the conflict between them, and the Christian faith as a whole. Only the last few chapters talk about the end of the world as we would understand it.

John calls his book a “…book of prophecy…”(Rev22:19). Prophecy that he claims comes from Jesus himself, and was intsructed to “write down”.(Rev1:19)

When was it, who, and how was it decided that Revelations was to be understood as a “keep your chin up” newsletter?

 

[NotWorthy]

John calls his book a “…book of prophecy…”(Rev22:19). Prophecy that he claims comes from Jesus himself, and was intsructed to “write down”.(Rev1:19)

When was it, who, and how was it decided that Revelations was to be understood as a “keep your chin up” newsletter?

Couldn’t the prophecies be meant to teach you to persevere? What’s wrong with that?

 

[Lev23]

Actually, I think you are right. It is not given to everyone to look into questions of unresolved theology. There is One Spirit, but different gifts. So please forgive me, Prime, I understand that each of us has been called in a unique way to serve the faithful, and so, admittedly, everyone cannot be a theologian.

And I would agree that if one is not Catholic, one should really not get into the Book of Revelation, for if it is about the ultimate spiritual Plan for the Redemption of humanity, and since the RCC is now the very vehicle for this, one will never fully understand this Plan if one is not Catholic.

Hence, Protestants can only go so far in understanding it. I don’t know, I guess I’m just one of the apoc nuts ( !) that gets into it.

But, anyway, I agree, to each his own, One Spirit, different gifts.
Bless you, P Prime au 76!

Yeah, ok sure. Try looking at Revelations like it is real prophecy. Then match it up to our lords prophecies spoken through his prophets in the Old Testament.

For example, the Rider and the white horse in Rev19:11-21 and the 1000 year reign spoken of in Rev20. Then look at Zecariah 14, or Joel 3.

 

[Lev23]

Couldn’t the prophecies be meant to teach you to persevere? What’s wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, your absolutely right.

 

[SFLCatholic]

What I never understood about all these people that study Rapture, End of the World, Revelation prophecy, etc., is why? It’s speculation.

Why not concentrate on applying the legacy Jesus left us with. On the concrete testimony of His life. If we did that, we wouldn’t have to worry about the world ending.

Jesus was a man of works. He spoke as a man having authority. So, when he tells us that no man knows the day or the hour of His return, why not apply that and believe it?

Instead I hear idiotic interpretations that Jesus said only day and hour cannot be know. This does not include the year. So, we can know the year. That’s absurd.

Why waste your time on this ridiculous banter? Why not use the time in applying His teachings? In acting as He did? Fight abortion. Help the poor. Do works, just as he did.

He gave us many examples to follow. And not one of them included speculating on His return.

It seems to me that following Jesus’ reaction in the temple regarding the money changers, would be applicable to the doomsdayer cults, i.e. Rapture followers, Revelation speculators, etc. In that, He would be angry that His word and His life has been so grossly misinterpreted.

 

[jacobaer]

Hi all,

I just looked at tabcom’s last post. It was on April 12th. And the thread seems to have ended there, until today, when the next group of posts were added. But none from tabcom. Why did this thread end so abruptly?

Peace,
Jacobaer

 

[spauline]

What I never understood about all these people that study Rapture, End of the World, Revelation prophecy, etc., is why? It’s speculation.

Why not concentrate on applying the legacy Jesus left us with. On the concrete testimony of His life. If we did that, we wouldn’t have to worry about the world ending.

Jesus was a man of works. He spoke as a man having authority. So, when he tells us that no man knows the day or the hour of His return, why not apply that and believe it?

Instead I hear idiotic interpretations that Jesus said only day and hour cannot be know. This does not include the year. So, we can know the year. That’s absurd.

Why waste your time on this ridiculous banter? Why not use the time in applying His teachings? In acting as He did? Fight abortion. Help the poor. Do works, just as he did.

He gave us many examples to follow. And not one of them included speculating on His return.

It seems to me that following Jesus’ reaction in the temple regarding the money changers, would be applicable to the doomsdayer cults, i.e. Rapture followers, Revelation speculators, etc. In that, He would be angry that His word and His life has been so grossly misinterpreted.

Um, I don’t speculate on “when Jesus is returning.” You have been impacted by Fundamentalist stigma. As I have said, and continue to inform people on this site, who are largely ignorant, there ARE legitimate apocalyptic questions. Right, they are not “when will Jesus return in terms of dates” and they are not “which nations will blow who else up at the end”.

But there are legit Q’s, Q’s that are yet unresolved in the Church, but that will be dogmatically resolved at some point before the end of human history. One such Q is , “What will the fullness of the Gentiles consist in, so that we understand what degree of REdemption humanity will experience before they rebel irrevocably.” Hence, we have pessimistic augustinians and we have those who have more hope for a great restoration based on private rev.

So I don’t agree with you, and i think formally the Church doesn’t agree with you. If the apoc is UTTERLY irrelevant to Church teaching, why is it in Scripture and the CCC?

 

[spauline]

I should clarify above, SFL:

I PARTIALLY agree with you in that Fundamentalists are obsessed about questions that are not relevant. But where i DISagree with you is the idea that the apoc is completely a waste of time and not meant to be looked into in any sense other than liberal preterism, for as I have said, there is spiritual meaning to salvation history, including the Church age. hence, asking questions about ecclesiological history and what ultimate spiritual fruits can be wrought in the world before the final, irrevocable apostasy ARE legitimate questions that have more importance than you may care to realize.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Um, I don’t speculate on “when Jesus is returning.”

What makes you so important to think I was talking about you specifically?

As I have said, and continue to inform people on this site, who are largely ignorant,

Excuse me? Pride cometh before a fall?

If the apoc is UTTERLY irrelevant to Church teaching, why is it in Scripture and the CCC?

Where did I ever claim “apoc” was irrelevant?

I think your myopic vision has caused you to misconstrue what I wrote.

 

[spauline]

What makes you so important to think I was talking about you specifically?
.

OK, well, look, I guess I assumed you were referring to me. I’m sorry about that. Will you forgive me?

Excuse me? Pride cometh before a fall?

Well, look, I didn’t mean ignorance in the sense of “lack of intelligence”, but in the sense of they are “innocently unaware of the whole picture”. Admittedly, I should not trumpet my own awareness, for “to whom much is given, much is excepted.” I humbly beg forgiveness if I come across as arrogant. I think it’s more I am frustrated with what appears to me to be a too casual dismissal of the subject. … …

Where did I ever claim “apoc” was irrelevant?
I think your myopic vision has caused you to misconstrue what I wrote

OK, I’m sorry for misconstruing your statements. I pray that God Bless you.

 

[kleary]

Hi all,

I just looked at tabcom’s last post. It was on April 12th. And the thread seems to have ended there, until today, when the next group of posts were added. But none from tabcom. Why did this thread end so abruptly?

Peace,
Jacobaer

I think Tabcom sae that he cannot win here. That usually is the case with Fundamentalists. When they see they cannot answer they up and quit. The thread was “re-started” yesterday by someone else who came in with an answer to a previous post.

Ken

 

[SFLCatholic]

OK, well, look, I guess I assumed you were referring to me. I’m sorry about that. Will you forgive me?

Well, look, I didn’t mean ignorance in the sense of “lack of intelligence”, but in the sense of they are “innocently unaware of the whole picture”. Admittedly, I should not trumpet my own awareness, for “to whom much is given, much is excepted.” I humbly beg forgiveness if I come across as arrogant. I think it’s more I am frustrated with what appears to me to be a too casual dismissal of the subject. … …

OK, I’m sorry for misconstruing your statements. I pray that God Bless you.

No problems. All is forgiven.

 

[SFLCatholic]

I think Tabcom sae that he cannot win here. That usually is the case with Fundamentalists. When they see they cannot answer they up and quit. The thread was “re-started” yesterday by someone else who came in with an answer to a previous post.

Ken

Yes it seems to be the case alright. They up and leave when forced to face thier own theological shortcomings.

I wish they would stick around long enough to convert to the One True Faith.

 

[tabcom]

Hi all,

I just looked at tabcom’s last post. It was on April 12th. And the thread seems to have ended there, until today (April 25th), when the next group of posts were added. But none from tabcom. Why did this thread end so abruptly?

Peace,
Jacobaer

**

Jacobaer . . .et. al. . . .

My absence has been due, in part, to the last of the snows melting here in Indiana back in mid-April. My wife and I have been busy with home remodeling and lawn work. Now that I feel like we’re catching up on those task, I would like to rejoin the forum.

To review . . .

the 1st beast is an ‘it’, not a ‘him’; and that ‘it’ is the worshiping of self above God. The 2nd beast is false teachers that preach the message of fulfill self and that God loves everyone and that you don’t have to do anything to accept Christ.

Turning to the 3rd beast of Rev. 13 . . . .

Genesis 11:1,4 --The whole earth was of one language and one speech – they said let us build us a city and a tower and let us make us a name

• language - Hebrew: sepheth - lip or- boundary line.
• speech - Hebrew: dabar - arrangement; spoken commandment

city and tower - considered a sovereign kingdom with its own boundary and law (commandment/instruction) (called a mountain)

• name - Hebrew: shem - authority; honor; fame

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

Genesis 3:1,5 – The serpent was more subtil than any beast – (the serpent said) in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and “ye shalt be as gods” –

The sin of the harlot (self-worship) started with Eve and the original beast (the serpent). He ruled Eve and Adam by causing them to move the boundary of God (thou shalt) taking in forbidden boundary (thou shalt not). This established a new law of self-esteem (pride). Eve, the original harlot (idolator), rode upon the beast (serpent), polluting the people (Adam). After the flood, Nimrod reinstituted, at Babel (Babylon), the rebellion of Eden, setting up a new boundary (city and tower), and a new commandment (name or authority). Pride (let us make a name) is the foundation of “all” idolatry (spiritual harlotry) that has polluted the world for all time. It is the system of self-worship. (Repent means to turn from self to God). Babel began a series of “world order” beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). America has dispensed with icon (statue) worship and retained the “self-esteem” (pride) system of Rome/Babylon and is polluting the world with it. Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of “self-esteem” and “pride”. (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2).**