The 33,000 denominations LIE

[tobinatorstark]

That perception is the number 1 reason people stay away from the Catholic Faith.

But doesn’t the Bible teach us to pray to God directly as well ask for the intercession of saints. I have found 4 verses already that ask for intercession of saints.

 

[Ruthie]

2.) 33,000 includes 242 catholic 887orthodox,9490 protestant plus cults like JW and mormon and a number of other titles all totaling up less than that amount…They blame SS for this and say it caused that number yet have no source for it.

The source is the World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001). I haven’t read it.

But myfavoritemartin is right, though I wouldn’t exactly call it a lie. “33,000” comes from the way David Barrett defined “denomination.” He restricts it by country, leading to 242 Catholic “denominations.” (In 238 countries…?)

He did the same thing with other international churches. So we can assume, for example, that there are 238 Lutheran churches listed, too, when there should be only one.

So that number of 33,000 is obviously off by a great deal.

I have found that the numbers can be tweaked in several ways. For example, are the various “non-denominational” churches listed separately? If listed as a single denomination, it could change the numbers significantly. Again, there are splits in the mainline Protestant churches, like the different synods of Methodism. Did Barrett count them separately, or together?

Here’s an article, linked to another article with numbers taken from the book - though the Catholic authors don’t seem to have considered what I said above. For instance, they happily accept “226” denominations of JWs, when they, too, are one church with one world headquarters in Bethel, NY.

But if you have the time, you might be able to get closer to the actual numbers by getting out your calculator and going for it. I did something like that several years ago, and came up with a number of around 3000 non-Catholic Christian denominations.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

Hope this sheds some light,

Ruthie

 

[DD2007]

But doesn’t the Bible teach us to pray to God directly as well ask for the intercession of saints. I have found 4 verses already that ask for intercession of saints.

It does ask us to interecede for one another. I just don’t feel comfortable praying to the dead. It does not say we should do that.

But, that is the main problem you guys have to overcome. People are afraid of idolatry because the one consistant condemnation in the bible is against idolatry. Many think the Roman Catholic Church toes a very fine line in this area. So it frightens people enough to keep them away.

 

[tobinatorstark]

It does ask us to interecede for one another. I just don’t feel comfortable praying to the dead. It does not say we should do that.

But, that is the main problem you guys have to overcome. People are afraid of idolatry because the one consistant condemnation in the bible is against idolatry. Many think the Roman Catholic Church toes a very fine line in this area. So it frightens people enough to keep them away.

But it does say that we should pray for the dead in the book of Tobias (Tobit) as well as Machabees (Maccabees), but if we want to continue the discussion of Intercession and such we ought to create a new thread

 

[Soutane]

That perception is the number 1 reason people stay away from the Catholic Faith.

And it’s sad that you are staking your salvation on a perception rather than the truth.But this thread isn’t about US its about thousands and thousands of different protestant sects.

 

[DD2007]

But it does say that we should pray for the dead in the book of Tobias (Tobit) as well as Machabees (Maccabees), but if we want to continue the discussion of Intercession and such we ought to create a new thread

I agree that in those disputed books there is instances of praying for the dead. However nowhere inthe entire bible does it say to pray to anyone other than God. Christ taught us this:

Matt 6:9-13

[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

So that issue is the main thing that keeps people away. Perhaps there wouldn’t be so many denominations if that practice was reformed?

But, yes we are moving off topic.

I say we all know there isn’t 30,000 different denominations.

 

[Soutane]

It does ask us to interecede for one another. I just don’t feel comfortable praying to the dead. It does not say we should do that.

But, that is the main problem you guys have to overcome. People are afraid of idolatry because the one consistant condemnation in the bible is against idolatry. Many think the Roman Catholic Church toes a very fine line in this area. So it frightens people enough to keep them away.

WE don’t have to overcome ANYTHING.Protestants must overcome their errant perceptions.Christ did not change His teaching regarding the True Presence because some of his disciples didn’t “get” it.He let them go because He respected their God given Free Will.As we do yours.We’re not going to change into Protestants to accomodate other disbelieving disciples.

Now shall we get back to the OP?

 

[tobinatorstark]

I agree that in those disputed books there is instances of praying for the dead. However nowhere inthe entire bible does it say to pray to anyone other than God. Christ taught us this:

Matt 6:9-13

[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
[10] Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
[11] Give us this day our daily bread;
[12] And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;
[13] And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.

So that issue is the main thing that keeps people away. Perhaps there wouldn’t be so many denominations if that practice was reformed?

But, yes we are moving off topic.

I say we all know there isn’t 30,000 different denominations.

But those books are part of the Catholic Canon which did produce both the OT and NT canon. Council of Carthage in 397. Luther didn’t accept the canon and it does say so in the Bible besides those 2 books… But still the number of denominations are too many and they are all of men and not of God

 

[tobinatorstark]

WE don’t have to overcome ANYTHING.Protestants must overcome their errant perceptions.Christ did not change His teaching regarding the True Presence because some of his disciples didn’t “get” it.He let them go because He respected their God given Free Will.As we do yours.We’re not going to change into Protestants to accomodate other disbelieving disciples.

Now shall we get back to the OP?

True. Although some seem to challenge Rome and form their own belief, but it doesn’t mean all Catholics are going to change into Protestants because one believes in evolution and another doesn’t and issues of such forth

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree. Whether the number is 33000, 3300, 330, 33 or 3, it’s still too many, which is the main point. Arguing about the number is often beside the point.

Although, as the OP started this thread specifically about that number, I suppose that for this discussion, getting an accurate number is the focal point.

And after a lengthy discussion, your greatest achievement could only be to convince one or two Protestants. The next time you bring it up to someone else, you’ll be back at square one.

It’s kind of hard to come up with a firm number that everyone can agree with. What is a “denomination” after all? I know a Baptist couple who left their previous Baptist church for another Baptist church because they were at odds with some aspect of belief. Do we count those two Baptist churches as one denomination: Baptist? Or do we count them as two separate denominations because of their differing beliefs?

That’s why its often best to just dwell on the fact that 10 is 9 too many. Give them a number that they can accept, and then get to the point!

 

[NotWorthy]

Showing differing views on things but with the same basic doctrine is no different than latin or chaldean rites…
It does NOT substantiate 33,000 churches.

Are you sure about this? What does the Latin rite teach that is different from the Chaldean rite? Isn’t it simply the disciplines of the Mass?

 

[tobinatorstark]

Are you sure about this? What does the Latin rite teach that is different from the Chaldean rite? Isn’t it simply the disciplines of the Mass?

He wouldn’t know because doesn’t accept any religion. But you do make a good point

 

[mark_a]

Is there ever going to be a point where Catholics stop propagating this falsehood?

I dislike the 33,000 number thrown around by some Catholics, although it is useful to get the attention of Catholic bashers.

Personnally, I think the term “hundreds” gets the point across.

 

[tobinatorstark]

hmm. Maybe we have scared myfavoritmartin off???

 

[jlhargus]

Is there ever going to be a point where Catholics stop propagating this falsehood?

What denomination or non-denomination, do you belong? Was it founded by somone who belonged to a group and then disagreed with that denomination or non-denomination interpretation of Scripture and started his own group, or if you prefer non-group?

 

[tobinatorstark]

What denomination or non-denomination, do you belong? Was it founded by somone who belonged to a group and then disagreed with that denomination or non-denomination interpretation of Scripture and started his own group, or if you prefer non-group?

He doesn’t believe in organized religion

 

[jlhargus]

He doesn’t believe in organized religion

JL: That means he is a new denomination unto himself. So now we have 34,000.

 

[tobinatorstark]

With all these denominations, do people not accept Christ for who he actually is???

 

[DD2007]

With all these denominations, do people not accept Christ for who he actually is???

1. There are not that many denominations.
2. Of course. The gospel of Christ is the truth the Church is a pillar and foundation of.

All of the divisions are mainly over minor things. The Church as a whole agrees on the Apostolic Gospel and who Christ is.

 

[MarcoPolo]

That perception is the number 1 reason people stay away from the Catholic Faith.

Since you know we don’t worship Mary, please help us dispel this myth among Protestants. You are called to spread the truth as are we. Thank you in advance.