The 33,000 denominations LIE

[tobinatorstark]

1. There are not that many denominations.
2. Of course. The gospel of Christ is the truth the Church is a pillar and foundation of.

All of the divisions are mainly over minor things. The Church as a whole agrees on the Apostolic Gospel and who Christ is.

I agree with 2 and 3, but disagree with 1. More than 1 church is falling away from the body

 

[DD2007]

I agree with 2 and 3, but disagree with 1. More than 1 church is falling away from the body

There is only one Church. The members just don’t agree on everythign so there are different worship groups. That’s all.

We should work toward ecumenism.

 

[tobinatorstark]

There is only one Church. The members just don’t agree on everythign so there are different worship groups. That’s all.

We should work toward ecumenism.

But they still can fall away from the body. I agree that we should work towards some ecumenism, but there isn’t much of chance because of heirarchy within other denominations

 

[DD2007]

But they still can fall away from the body. I agree that we should work towards some ecumenism, but there isn’t much of chance because of heirarchy within other denominations

Only God can fully unite the Church. Concessions would have to be made on all sides. Men are prideful.

God is always more forgiving than men.

 

[tobinatorstark]

very true

 

[NotWorthy]

Only God can fully unite the Church. Concessions would have to be made on all sides. Men are prideful.

God is always more forgiving than men.

This is the root of the problem. If a Church taught the truth, why should She concede the truth in order to have more members?

Who is in charge of the Truth, the Church? Or Her members? The Church should never let ecumenism water down the Truth.

No, if people don’t like the truth, the problem is with the people, not the Church.

 

[tobinatorstark]

This is the root of the problem. If a Church taught the truth, why should She concede the truth in order to have more members?

Who is in charge of the Truth, the Church? Or Her members? The Church should never let ecumenism water down the Truth.

No, if people don’t like the truth, the problem is with the people, not the Church.

It’s all about falling away from the Body which is Christ and not accepting his teachings that he gave us to begin with

 

[sodak]

I agree that in those disputed books there is instances of praying for the dead.

Disputed? There is no dispute. The same Authority that gave us those books also gave us the rest of the Bible. If some “dispute” them, they should have a good reason for it. So far, I haven’t seen it.

 

[DD2007]

Disputed? There is no dispute. The same Authority that gave us those books also gave us the rest of the Bible. If some “dispute” them, they should have a good reason for it. So far, I haven’t seen it.

Certainly disputed.

The Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, and Roman Catholics all have different ideas of what is scripture. There are some smaller groups that have different lists as well.

Here is my feeling about it.

The Protestant list is certainly all scripture.

The additions that make the Roman Catholic canon are probably scripture.

The further additions that make the Anglican and Orthodox scriptures are possibly scripture.

I use all of them for instruction however I place more authority in the books that make up the 66 book canon.

 

[NotWorthy]

Certainly disputed.

The Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, and Roman Catholics all have different ideas of what is scripture. There are some smaller groups that have different lists as well.

Here is my feeling about it.

The Protestant list is certainly all scripture.

The additions that make the Roman Catholic canon are probably scripture.

The further additions that make the Anglican and Orthodox scriptures are possibly scripture.

I use all of them for instruction however I place more authority in the books that make up the 66 book canon.

Really? By what authority was this Canon determined?

Special note: This brings up the point I made earlier. Why do we have to get bogged down in Canon when the subject of the thread is something else.

 

[sodak]

Certainly disputed.

The Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, and Roman Catholics all have different ideas of what is scripture. There are some smaller groups that have different lists as well.

Here is my feeling about it.

The Protestant list is certainly all scripture.

The additions that make the Roman Catholic canon are probably scripture.

The further additions that make the Anglican and Orthodox scriptures are possibly scripture.

I use all of them for instruction however I place more authority in the books that make up the 66 book canon.

The problem is that the additions, aren’t. The Protestant list has subtractions. And you know what John said about those who try and change the Word of God.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;4738435:

You are wrong yet again. The number is the result of Protestant research. It is good solid scholarship. It is from the “World Christian Encyclopedia”, by Protestant scholar David B. Barrett and published by Oxford University Press

I know where it’s from

Then shouldn’t you be talking to Prof. Barrett and Oxford University to give them the benefit of your correction?

 

[Church_Militant]

I gave it.

No you didn’t. You tried to use someone else’s source, but you have yet to provide one that documents it not being that high.

I’m not talking about some preacher whose argument it is, I want a verifiable (preferably n-C) source that tells us how many denoms and various churches there are in n-C Christianity.

I don’t think you can provide one.

 

[Church_Militant]

doesn’t matter…The source Catholic apologist use for the 33,000 NEVER SAYS that…The point ofthis thread is about deceit

.You wish!

The fact is that there are definately thousands of n-C faith communities and whether there are 1,000 or 100,000 it doesn’t matter because the point is still valid that there are far too many and they all tell people that they are preaching the truth of the Bible and yet for some 500 years so far the Catholic Church has been consistently pointing out that they are in error.

Non-denoms are nothing more than a denom of one, and there are certainly a great many of them.

So tell us MFM, which one is really teaching the truth? Yours? The one down the street? The Independent Fundamentalist Baptists? If so, which one of them?

The exponential expansion of all these independents and non-denoms, along with whatever calls itself “mainstream” still adds up to a horror show of confusing teachings that only get worse the more one gets into them.

 

[Church_Militant]

Seems more like he is good at not seeing stark reality delivered directly to him…

Be sure to let us know when it gets here because I haven’t seen it so far.

 

[Church_Militant]

In particular ANYONE who uses the 33,000 protestants denominations as an apologetic is deceitful and a liar.

Hogwash! They may be wrong but that doesn’t indicate an attempt to deceive any more that your own errant teachings of Sola Scriptura are an effort to willfully deceive others even though they have been proved dead wrong for 500 years and their messed up fruit is precisely the reason that this discussion comes into being so often.

I’ll tell you what Martin, if you can’t discuss and debate without the polemics I suggest that you go back over to that “other forum” where you like to hang out and where they feed on this kind of polemics and anti-Catholic misleading propaganda, because if you express that one more time I’ll report you for violating the Forum Rules that clearly state that,

1. Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
2. Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.

You may think this little bash fest of yours is some kind of evangelism of Catholics but the fact is that this kind of polemic propaganda does nothing but drive people (like me) to “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” and like me, when they see it for what it is and find out the truth, they do like I did…they become Catholics, (or better Catholics if they already are!)

I think you know full well that you’re out of line.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Whether its 5,000,15,0000,22,000 or 33,000.It’s one + too many.It agitates Protestants and it should as it puts the lie to the claim that all of the myriad numbers of Protestant sects were founded by God,and not men.
Christ prayed in Gethsemene that we would all be one.
It’s one of the many achille’s heels of Protestantism.

When will Protestants stop propagating the falsehood that we worship Mary?

Neither are the topic of this thread.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

More than 1 is too many. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2 or 2 million Protestants squabbling over the real meaning of a scripture verse or the Eucharistic sacrament. How many protestant denominations are there? I’m not being sarcastic, but if there is a LIE going around about how many denominations there really are, then I would want to know the real number/statistic and not carelessly push this important issue aside.

I would start by asking myself, “Is more than 1 really too many?”

Again NOT the topic of this thread

 

[myfavoritmartin]

The source is the World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001). I haven’t read it.

But myfavoritemartin is right, though I wouldn’t exactly call it a lie. “33,000” comes from the way David Barrett defined “denomination.” He restricts it by country, leading to 242 Catholic “denominations.” (In 238 countries…?)

He did the same thing with other international churches. So we can assume, for example, that there are 238 Lutheran churches listed, too, when there should be only one.

So that number of 33,000 is obviously off by a great deal.

I have found that the numbers can be tweaked in several ways. For example, are the various “non-denominational” churches listed separately? If listed as a single denomination, it could change the numbers significantly. Again, there are splits in the mainline Protestant churches, like the different synods of Methodism. Did Barrett count them separately, or together?

Here’s an article, linked to another article with numbers taken from the book - though the Catholic authors don’t seem to have considered what I said above. For instance, they happily accept “226” denominations of JWs, when they, too, are one church with one world headquarters in Bethel, NY.

But if you have the time, you might be able to get closer to the actual numbers by getting out your calculator and going for it. I did something like that several years ago, and came up with a number of around 3000 non-Catholic Christian denominations.

bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm

Hope this sheds some light,

Ruthie

Thank you for acknowledging where I was coming from.

 

[tobinatorstark]

Certainly disputed.

The Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, and Roman Catholics all have different ideas of what is scripture. There are some smaller groups that have different lists as well.

Here is my feeling about it.

The Protestant list is certainly all scripture.

The additions that make the Roman Catholic canon are probably scripture.

The further additions that make the Anglican and Orthodox scriptures are possibly scripture.

I use all of them for instruction however I place more authority in the books that make up the 66 book canon.

Where did the canon for all scripture come from. The Catholic Church did the canon. Others took away and added to it.