The 4 cups of the Last Supper

[NotWorthy]

There are three points:

1. Isn’t there a “Hagadah” in existence that goes back to the 2nd century? One could hardly think that 2nd century Judaism would be influenced by Christianity and the Eucharist. I would think that 2nd century Judaism would be adversely affected by anything Christian, as is evidenced by the alleged Jamnian council and their rejection of the Deuterocanonicals. In any event, an ancient Hagadah would help to illustrate the numbering of the cups.
2. On the point of there being no lamb at the Last Supper: Dr. John Bergsma has an interesting explanation on this. When the Apostles are told to go into Jerusalem and find a man carrying water, today’s reader does not realize how unique this is. We forget that it was women that gathered the water. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed that the Essenes didn’t follow this custom. Their men gathered the water. One can assume that the man in the Gospels would have been Essene. There are two other items that would correlate to this. The Essenes did not have a lamb at their Passover. I don’t recall why, but it is recorded in the DSS that they didn’t. Also, they celebrated their Passover on Tuesday, which would help explain John’s “discrepancy” with the Synoptics on the dating of the Last Supper.
3. Although the point is now moot, the Jews from the time of Judges all the way to David (if not even further) had ceased to celebrate the Passover. I’m not entirely sure, but I almost recall that the Passover was not celebrated all the way until Ezra and Nehemiah’s time (the return of the Babylonian Captivity in the 5th century BC).

 

[patrick457]

There are two points:

1. Isn’t there a “Hagadah” in existence that goes back to the 2nd century? One could hardly think that 2nd century Judaism would be influenced by Christianity and the Eucharist. I would think that 2nd century Judaism would be adversely affected by anything Christian, as is evidenced by the alleged Jamnian council and their rejection of the Deuterocanonicals.

I would quote from the JPS commentary on the Haggadah (pp. 6-7). I’ll just quote in part; you can just read it on that link anyway :

This brings us to the earliest detailed description of the paschal meal, the description found in the tenth chapter of the tractate Pesachim of the Mishnah, finally redacted by R. Judah the Prince at the beginning of the third century C.E., some 150 years after the destruction of the Temple and the cessation of the paschal sacrifice in Jerusalem. Scholars are divided on the value of this description for understanding how the meal was conducted during the Second Temple period. Many agree that some of it does represent practice during the Second Temple, but there is disagreement about the details.

Any attempt to present the Mishnah as a source for Second Temple practice must take into consideration the fact that there are details in the Mishnah’s portrayal of the seder that were introduced after the destruction of the Temple.

As for the supposed ‘Jamnia Council’, here’s what I wrote a while back:

Before the fall of Jerusalem, Rabbi Johanan ben-Zakkai established an academy at Yavneh which proceeded to function like a Sanhedrin between the period between the Jewish revolts of AD 70-132. He was then succeeded by Rabbi Gamaliel II. Somewhere between AD 80 and AD 117 Gamaliel was deposed for a time; Eleazar ben-Azariah was installed as head of the Yavneh academy. According to the Mishnah, at the day of Eleazar’s installation, the sages ruled that both Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes “make the hands unclean” (i.e. holy). The same passage goes on to state that “all the Holy Scriptures render the hands unclean”, and so it is clear that the point at issue was whether the two books ranked among the Scriptures. This passage is then followed by a series of enactments introduced by the phrase “on that day” (Mishnah Yadaim 3.5-4.4). Later tradition (Talmud, tractate Berakhoth 28a), taking this formula at face value, claimed that every ruling prefixed by the phrase were indeed made on the same occasion.

This is where Heinrich Graetz and his ilk seem to get the idea of a ‘Council of Jamnia’. But even if we grant that something similar to it did exist, it should not be interpreted in the same way as Christian use of the term ‘council’, Nicaea- or even Vatican II-style. Admittedly, the term ‘council’ does have the disadvantage of making people assume official action taken at specific meetings held at specific dates.

On the contrary, it would seem that the deliberations at Yavneh were closer to the character of a school, academy, or court. All that the story about the Songs of Songs and Ecclesiastes tell us was that there was some debate about the exact status of these books. In fact, it would seem that the dispute were not terminated by the decisions at Yavneh: even as late as the late 2nd century, Rabbi Meir (circa 135-170), famous as one of the greatest of the Tannaim of the fourth generation, was disputing the idea that Ecclesiastes defiled the hands! There is no evidence that the status of other Writings was debated, or that a final decision was reached in Yavneh.

Thus, the idea of a Council of Jamnia that is analogous to Christian Church councils has no foundation. The Jamnia hypothesis however, admits of a looser definition. Hence, many of those who continue to accept the hypothesis now define the term as a loose one (and an unsatisfactory one at that), more of a convenient catch-all symbol designating the decisions that the schools that gathered at Yavneh had reached, which could represent the crystallization of long processes that occurred in early Judaism. In any case, it is even doubtful whether the actions of the academy at Yavneh were official decisions; there was probably no body in Judaism that functioned in an ‘official’ capacity post-AD 70.
So no, it never really had anything to do with the Deuterocanon.

 

[NotWorthy]

From what I understand about the Jamnian “Council” (yes, the term is misleading), it did occur, but its main function was to determine what to do with Judaism after the loss of the very central focal point of all Judaism, the Temple, was destroyed.

It would be like asking a Catholic how to celebrate the Mass without the Eucharist!

The result of the Jamnian “Council” was Pharisaic Judaism, similar to what we have today.

 

[Darryl1958]

There are three points:

1. Isn’t there a “Hagadah” in existence that goes back to the 2nd century? One could hardly think that 2nd century Judaism would be influenced by Christianity and the Eucharist. I would think that 2nd century Judaism would be adversely affected by anything Christian, as is evidenced by the alleged Jamnian council and their rejection of the Deuterocanonicals. In any event, an ancient Hagadah would help to illustrate the numbering of the cups.
2. On the point of there being no lamb at the Last Supper: Dr. John Bergsma has an interesting explanation on this. When the Apostles are told to go into Jerusalem and find a man carrying water, today’s reader does not realize how unique this is. We forget that it was women that gathered the water. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed that the Essenes didn’t follow this custom. Their men gathered the water. One can assume that the man in the Gospels would have been Essene. There are two other items that would correlate to this. The Essenes did not have a lamb at their Passover. I don’t recall why, but it is recorded in the DSS that they didn’t. Also, they celebrated their Passover on Tuesday, which would help explain John’s “discrepancy” with the Synoptics on the dating of the Last Supper.

3) Although the point is now moot, the Jews from the time of Judges all the way to David (if not even further) had ceased to celebrate the Passover. I’m not entirely sure, but I almost recall that the Passover was not celebrated all the way until Ezra and Nehemiah’s time (the return of the Babylonian Captivity in the 5th century BC).

There is something in the Bible itself, and I think it was way past the time of David, maybe at the time of the Josiah, where the ancient book of laws of the Covenant was rediscovered in repairs to the Temple. It would have been Josiah that restarted the ancient celebrations. I am not sure if the Passover would have been included, but maybe it was

I don’t know if this is the incident you are referring to here. but it rings a bell.

miketaylor.org.uk/xian/bible/events.html

1. Josiah
   (good) 612 BC: Nineveh falls to Babylon, in accordance with Nahum’s prophecy.
   The last good king, only eight years old at the start of his reign. At the age of 26, he instigated repairs for the temple, in the course of which the book of the law was rediscovered, precipitating a reaffirmation of the covenant and wide-ranging reforms.

]Died in the must stupid of circumstances: the Assyrian empire was crumbling, and the Egyptians marched through Judah to aid the remaining Assyrians against the Babylonians. Josiah insisted on fighting the Egyptians - against the Pharoah’s will - and ]was killed in battle.

 

[patrick457]

From what I understand about the Jamnian “Council” (yes, the term is misleading), it did occur, but its main function was to determine what to do with Judaism after the loss of the very central focal point of all Judaism, the Temple, was destroyed.

It would be like asking a Catholic how to celebrate the Mass without the Eucharist!

The result of the Jamnian “Council” was Pharisaic Judaism, similar to what we have today.

As I’ve said there, when one speaks of a ‘council’ (which is really a modern appellation to it) in reference to the Yavneh academy, it is not so much something a la Trent or Vatican II, where various decisions were decided upon and ratified at specific meetings held at specific dates. So yes, as you said the term is very misleading.

I’m quoting Dave Noonan from another thread from a little farther back:

If you look at the Talmudic source texts, there is no “council” mentioned at all, only a discussion–and the entire Talmud is basically a discussion–in and of itself, this is not noteworthy. The idea of a council coming together to resolve doctrinal and related issues is really a Christian construct, not a Rabbinic one. Moreover, discussions in remote Jamnia would perhaps be interesting but not necessarily relevant or binding by any means in centers like Baghdad (which produced the more-studied Babylonian Talmud).

And all that being considered, many Talmud scholars don’t even think the discussion in question is even historical.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

The Essenes did not have a lamb at their Passover. I don’t recall why, but it is recorded in the DSS that they didn’t. Also, they celebrated their Passover on Tuesday, which would help explain John’s “discrepancy” with the Synoptics on the dating of the Last Supper…

As far as I know, there’s nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls about the Essenes’ celebration of Passover, much less whether they had a lamb.

 

[NotWorthy]

As far as I know, there’s nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls about the Essenes’ celebration of Passover, much less whether they had a lamb.

I listened to this talk recently. I’ll have to listen to it again. Dr. Bergsma even mentions the scroll number that it was in.

Don’t forget, it was an Essene community that was at Qumran. It seems that most of the non-biblical scrolls would focus on Essene culture in some way or another.

Am I correct in saying that we didn’t even know anything about the Essene and Sadducees (other than what little is said about them in the Gospels) until we discovered the DSS? Both groups were essentially wiped out by the Romans from 68-70AD.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I listened to this talk recently. I’ll have to listen to it again. Dr. Bergsma even mentions the scroll number that it was in.

Don’t forget, it was an Essene community that was at Qumran. It seems that most of the non-biblical scrolls would focus on Essene culture in some way or another.

Am I correct in saying that we didn’t even know anything about the Essene and Sadducees (other than what little is said about them in the Gospels) until we discovered the DSS? Both groups were essentially wiped out by the Romans from 68-70AD.

Yes, I’d like to see a specific reference. I honestly don’t think such any such descriptions of Passover celebrations exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I’m open to new information.

Not all scholars believe the Qumran community consisted of Essenes, but I’m pretty convinced.

Most of what we know about the Essenes and Sadducees is from Josephus. As far as I know, the Essenes are not mentioned in the Gospels.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I’d like to see a specific reference. I honestly don’t think such any such descriptions of Passover celebrations exist in the Dead Sea Scrolls, but I’m open to new information.

Not all scholars believe the Qumran community consisted of Essenes, but I’m pretty convinced.

Most of what we know about the Essenes and Sadducees is from Josephus. As far as I know, the Essenes are not mentioned in the Gospels.

Yeah, I’m listening to Dr. Bergsma’s talk again. I think Q4 MMT speaks of the Essenes. But you are right. Josephus (and also Pliny… I believe the “Older”) give us insight into the Jews.

I’ll let you know when I catch up with the rest of his talk. So far, he’s mentioned that “Essenes” mean’s “Doers” as in “Doers of the Law”. Some of them were celibate, and many of them lived what would now be considered a monastic life.

 

[patrick457]

Yeah, I’m listening to Dr. Bergsma’s talk again. I think Q4 MMT speaks of the Essenes. But you are right. Josephus (and also Pliny… I believe the “Older”) give us insight into the Jews.

I’ll let you know when I catch up with the rest of his talk. So far, he’s mentioned that “Essenes” mean’s “Doers” as in “Doers of the Law”. Some of them were celibate, and many of them lived what would now be considered a monastic life.

Yep, that’s one theory for the origin of the term ‘Essene’: 'Osei “Doers”. Others I’ve heard of are Hasid “Pious” or 'Asayya “Healers”.

Some have proposed that Josephus was actually presenting a grossly oversimplified picture by naming only three groups (Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes) and that in reality the picture was more complex.

 

[patrick457]

1. On the point of there being no lamb at the Last Supper: Dr. John Bergsma has an interesting explanation on this. When the Apostles are told to go into Jerusalem and find a man carrying water, today’s reader does not realize how unique this is. We forget that it was women that gathered the water. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls have revealed that the Essenes didn’t follow this custom. Their men gathered the water. One can assume that the man in the Gospels would have been Essene. There are two other items that would correlate to this. The Essenes did not have a lamb at their Passover. I don’t recall why, but it is recorded in the DSS that they didn’t. Also, they celebrated their Passover on Tuesday, which would help explain John’s “discrepancy” with the Synoptics on the dating of the Last Supper.

I quote from Geza Vermes’ The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English (pp. 77-79):

In addition to the worship of God offered through a life of holiness, the Qumran sectary had more particularly to perform the ritual acts prescribed by Moses in the correct manner and at the right times. The earthly liturgy was intended to be a replica of that sung by the choirs of angels in the celestial Temple.

To judge from the many references to it, the time element both calendric and horary was crucial. The Community Rule lays down that the Community was not to ‘depart from any command of God concerning their times; they shall be neither early nor late for any of their appointed times, they shall stray neither to the right nor to the left of any of His true precepts’ (1QS 1, 13-15). This injunction asks for exact punctuality in regard to the two daily moments of prayer meant to coincide with and replace the perpetual burnt-offering sacrificed in the Temple at sunrise and sunset (Exod. xxix, 30; Num. xxviii, 4), but it demands in addition a strict observance of the sect’s own liturgical calendar.

He shall bless Him [with the offering] of the lips at the times ordained by Him: at the beginning of the dominion of light, and at its end when it retires to its appointed place; at the beginning of the watches of darkness when He unlocks their storehouse and spreads them out, and also at their end when they retire before the light; when the heavenly lights shine out from their dwelling-place of Holiness, and also when they retire to the place of Glory; at the entry of the (monthly) seasons on the days of the new moon, and also at their end when they succeed to one another… (1QS IX, 26-X, 4)

To understand the peculiarity of Essenism in this respect, a few words need to be said about the calendar followed by non-sectarian Judaism. Essentially, this was regulated by the movements of the moon; months varied in duration from twenty-nine to thirty days and the year consisted of twelve months of 354 days. Needless to say, such a lunar year does not correspond to the four seasons determined by the movements of the sun in terms of solstices and equinoxes. The shortfall of about ten days between the lunar and the solar years was therefore compensated for by the means of ‘intercalation’, i.e. by inserting after Adar (February/March), the twelfth month of the year, a supplementary ‘Second Adar’ at the end of every thirty-six lunar months.

The Qumran sect rejected this seemingly artificial system and adopted instead a chronological reckoning, probably of priestly origin, based on the sun, a practice attested also in the Book of Jubilees and I Enoch, and fully laid out in the remains of a series of calendrical documents (4Q320-30). The outstanding feature of this solar calendar was its absolute regularity in that, instead of 354 days, not divisible by seven, it consisted of 364 days, i.e. fifty-two weeks precisely. Each of its four seasons was thirteen weeks long divided into three months of thirty days each, plus an additional ‘remembrance’ day (1QS x, 5) linking one seasons fo another (13 x 7 = 91 = 3 x 20 + 1). In tune in this way with the ‘laws of the Great Light of heaven’ (1QH XII, 5) and not with the ‘festivals of the nations’ (4QpHos=4Q171 11, 16), Qumran saw its calendar as corresponding to ‘the certain law from the mouth of God’ (1QH XX [formerly XII], 9). Its unbroken rhythm meant furthermore that the first day of the year and of each subsequent season always fell on the same day of the week. For the Essenes this was Wednesday, since according to Genesis i, 14-19, it was on the fourth day that the sun and the moon were created. Needless to add, the same monotonous sequence also implied that all the feasts of the year always fell on the same day of the week: Passover, the fifteenth day of the first month, was always celebrated on a Wednesday; the Feast of Weeks, the fifteenth day of the third month, always on a Sunday; the Day of Atonement, the tenth day of the seventh month, on a Friday; the Feast of Tabernacles, the fifteenth day of the seventh month, on a Wednesday, etc. This solar calendar with its eternal regularity cannot of course stand up to the astronomical calculation of 365 days 5 hours 48 minutes and 48 seconds to the year, but the Scrolls so far published give no indication of how the Essenes proposed to cope with this inconvenience, or whether indeed they were even aware of it.​

 

[patrick457]

1. Although the point is now moot, the Jews from the time of Judges all the way to David (if not even further) had ceased to celebrate the Passover. I’m not entirely sure, but I almost recall that the Passover was not celebrated all the way until Ezra and Nehemiah’s time (the return of the Babylonian Captivity in the 5th century BC).

2 Chronicles refers to celebrations of the Passover (8:13; 30:1-27; 35:1-19), during the reigns of Solomon, Hezekiah and Josiah. Of the latter two observances the author comments: “So there was great joy in Jerusalem, for since the time of Solomon the son of David king of Israel there had been nothing like this in Jerusalem;” and “No Passover like it had been kept in Israel since the days of Samuel the prophet. None of the kings of Israel had kept such a Passover as was kept by Josiah, and the priests and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel who were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.”