The 5th dubium: the conscience

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You have to be more concrete to make such an argument. One could mistakenly think you are saying one may do evil (though conscience says good), presumably for good intention or similar, just because options are limited.
Well yes, I put up the question mark on my comment because it’s simply a speculative point and my mind is too fuzzy at 6am to think up a good example?

Surely if one can sin by ommission for not doing the true good that conscience identifies … for sometimes to do nothing would be a true evil … then I am wondering why the same could never hold when one mistakenly perceives the good and the evil in a similarly difficult situation…
 
Well yes, I put up the question mark on my comment because it’s simply a speculative point and my mind is too fuzzy at 6am to think up a good example?

Surely if one can sin by ommission for not doing the true good that conscience identifies … for sometimes to do nothing would be a true evil … then I am wondering why the same could never hold when one mistakenly perceives the good and the evil in a similarly difficult situation…
Sins of omission are always fuzzier. The positive precepts of the law are directional, not absolute and specific. The negative precepts, where sins of commission arise, are absolute prohibitions.

Do I sin when declining the appeal of the Salvos because I feel I’ve been charitable enough this year? Probably. Perhaps the only true good is to give everything away? 😦
 
What if practical reason begins with postulates and assumptions that are true, i.e., with what God has inscribed in man’s heart? I cannot see how the teaching on conscience could be understood without accepting this premise. The premise is belief and not objective knowledge.
If God inscribes the same truths in everyone’s heart why are there such great disparities in what is believed about good and evil? Given those differences, how do we determine whose conscience is true and whose is in error?
Simply stated, I cannot know why something may be acceptable for you.
If I said “I believe it because my conscience says it’s true” how would you refute me? Isn’t your position that the conscience informs us and is not itself informed? If that is so then you do know why I believe what I do: it is how my conscience guides me.
Conscience concerns the acts of an individual person.
*…conscience expresses itself in acts of “judgment” which reflect the truth about the good, and not in arbitrary “decisions”. *(VS #61)
Consequently, there would be no basis for my claim that my position is true and yours false. What I determine by practical reason could be “askew” by not having clearly heard the voice of conscience, while yours may be in accordance with God’s law.
This is surely true, and if there was nothing else to guide us we would essentially be left with no real reason to believe good and evil even existed given that we would have no persuasive way of determining one from the other.

We are not, however, left in such a condition. The church holds that she is that guide.*The knowledge which the Church offers to man has its origin not in any speculation of her own, however sublime, but in the word of God which she has received in faith. *(Fides et ratio #7)
Now it is at least rational for a non-Catholic to reject the claims of the Catholic church, but it seems irrational for a Catholic to do so. If we believe what the Church says about herself…*The Church gratefully accepts and lovingly preserves the entire deposit of Revelation, treating it with religious respect and fulfilling her mission of authentically interpreting God’s law in the light of the Gospel. *(Veritatis Splendor #45)
…then on what basis can we reasonably claim to be justified in rejecting her doctrines, and if we don’t believe what she says about herself why would we remain Catholics?

Ender
 
If his conscience tells him Act X (say, to contracept as a means to have sex with wife and avoid Zika) is OK, but the Church teaches NOK, then do not act. There is no compulsion to act. Clearly understood Church teaching and Conscience ought to function like a logical AND gate. Neither may offer a Red light to a contemplated act.
I’m confused here: if one light is red and the other green why would we not act given that “neither [alone?] may offer a red light to a contemplated act”? (Did you mean “either”?)

Ender
 
I’m confused here: if one light is red and the other green why would we not act given that “neither [alone?] may offer a red light to a contemplated act”? (Did you mean “either”?)

Ender
Neither may offer a red light if our act is to be licitly pursued. Any red light should be obeyed.
 
In God, objective knowledge and the personal conscience are drawn toward unity.

That is the point of God’s revelation and our expression of it through doctrine. Doctrine or objective knowledge (as I think you are saying) inform our conscience and so draws us into unity with God and each other.
To the extent that we are deaf to his voice, we have disunity.

The expression of conscience shouldn’t lead to disunity.
If you read through Veritatis Splendor for instance, St JP2 speaks of the harmony of faith and life and how the unity of the Church is affected therein.
I would agree but for the notion that what we learn as objective knowledge (yes, doctrine would have to be an example), informs the conscience. What informs the conscience is God’s law inscribed deep within man’s heart, and what is learned informs the intellect (mind)–but not practical reason, which concerns praxis. In saying this, I am for the moment wearing the hat of a person with a degree in psychology from a major university. This is perhaps technical, but what is learned as objective knowledge (and results in learned behavior) can neither form nor inform a person’s DNA.

What does Pope Benedict XVI mean by the following?

“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. Conscience confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even the official Church.” (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II
 
Do I sin when declining the appeal of the Salvos because I feel I’ve been charitable enough this year? Probably. Perhaps the only true good is to give everything away? 😦
Surely it is not sinning if a family man does not give away all his possessions!
There are commands and there are counsels.
There are states of life and otherwise good acts that would be sinful in one state but not in another.
It would be sinful for a monk not to give up his “possessions” if another had dire need of them, not a married man who must care for his family.

The trick in both states is to be in the world but not of the world I would think.
Not all are called to give both material and spiritual witness to this lightness of desire.
 
“Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority. Conscience confronts [the individual] with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even the official Church.” (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II
Been there, quoted that before, no effect for the gainsayers.
It was flat our rejected until it was later observed to come from Father Ratzinger in the 1970s. Then the gainsayers attempted to argue he reversed his position with that later article he wrote mentioning “anamnesis”…or the quote was just ignored.

Invincible ignorance, in adult Catholics, cannot be alleviated even by correct information from any authority on earth it seems. Its an interesting phenomenon I am at a loss to explain on non culpable grounds ;).
 
Been there, quoted that before, no effect for the gainsayers.
It was flat our rejected until it was later observed to come from Father Ratzinger in the 1970s. Then the gainsayers attempted to argue he reversed his position with that later article he wrote mentioning “anamnesis”…or the quote was just ignored.
I know. I’ve quoted it myself for what seems umpteen times with the same result. It doesn’t fit the narrative so…it doesn’t count…just a random variable that is statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Something like that.
Invincible ignorance, in adult Catholics, cannot be alleviated even by correct information from any authority on earth it seems. Its an interesting phenomenon I am at a loss to explain on non culpable grounds ;).
I think so. What is unreasonable cannot be understood by reason. Something else is at work. It seems like maybe it is in not understanding the importance of faith in religion and the insistence that only supposed objective knowledge is valid. The seriousness of that error is…well…monumental.
 
What does Pope Benedict XVI mean by the following?
Oh, that’s easy. First you have to look at what are claims of ecclesiastical authority. Those are claims made by the Church hierarchy. *They are distinct from Divine Truths, which are claims by God Himself.

Examples would be, fasting on abstinence on appointed days. If one’sconscience judged it appropriate to eat mean on a Lenten Friday, then PopeBenedict is indicating that one is to follow that.

Also absentis anyclaim to immunity to any repercussions that*such judgements might bring, either spiritual or temporal.

I used the example of the women who falsely seek ordination earlier in this thread.

Which is why I am confused as to what*bearing Pope Benedict’s quote has on the interpretation of AL? A personal judgement of conscience, in no way, binds the Church to act in one way or the other.
 
Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else…" --then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger

What more is there to say? A person either accepts this or he does not. If he says he does not, that much would at least be an understandable. But to say it says what it clearly does not is just not understandable.
 
Oh, that’s easy. First you have to look at what are claims of ecclesiastical authority. Those are claims made by the Church hierarchy. *They are distinct from Divine Truths, which are claims by God Himself.

Examples would be, fasting on abstinence on appointed days. If one’sconscience judged it appropriate to eat mean on a Lenten Friday, then PopeBenedict is indicating that one is to follow that.

Also absentis anyclaim to immunity to any repercussions that*such judgements might bring, either spiritual or temporal.

I used the example of the women who falsely seek ordination earlier in this thread.

Which is why I am confused as to what*bearing Pope Benedict’s quote has on the interpretation of AL? A personal judgement of conscience, in no way, binds the Church to act in one way or the other.
Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else…" --then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger

What more is there to say? A person either accepts this or he does not. If he says he does not, that much at least would be understandable. But to say it says what it clearly does not is just not understandable. See CCC 1800.
 
I know. I’ve quoted it myself for what seems umpteen times with the same result. It doesn’t fit the narrative so…it doesn’t count…just a random variable that is statistically insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Something like that.
Please, don’t go there. Ratzinger speaks of the obligation to follow our conscience. He is silent on all that it implies. As I’ve said before, it is not sufficient to seize on one passage and ignore everything else. Passages that seemingly contradict one another have to be resolved, not dismissed. Like this one for instance:891 *When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”
*Does the obligation that we must follow our conscience cancel the obligation that we must adhere to infallible doctrines? On the face of it one of them must be wrong…or just maybe there is a way to understand what is being said that allows them to coexist without believing that one trumps the other. Otherwise we are left with the conclusion that “must” means “really must” over here but only “kind of must” over there.
I think so. What is unreasonable cannot be understood by reason. Something else is at work. It seems like maybe it is in not understanding the importance of faith in religion and the insistence that only supposed objective knowledge is valid. The seriousness of that error is…well…monumental.
You have misapprehended the arguments being made, and a that attitude is not likely to help clarify them. No one has suggested the argument you dismissively attribute to others.

Ender
 
Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else…" --then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger

What more is there to say? A person either accepts this or he does not. If he says he does not, that much at least would be understandable. But to say it says what it clearly does not is just not understandable. See CCC 1800.
  • 891 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”
    *What more is there to say? A person either accepts this or he does not etc. So, if our conscience trumps the words of the pope and ecclesiastical authority, does it also trump the words of Christ? Does “obeyed before all else” include Christ as well?
If you present Ratzinger’s statement as inarguably true without condition or exception then how do you take the statement in the catechism? Does it not also say what we *must *do, and does it not present a situation where one obligation must in fact yield to the other?

I said before that you cannot seize on one passage to the exclusion of all else, that everything said must be reconciled, as these (apparently) conflicting obligations demonstrate.

Ender
 
Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one’s own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else…" --then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger

What more is there to say? A person either accepts this or he does not. If he says he does not, that much at least would be understandable. But to say it says what it clearly does not is just not understandable. See CCC 1800.
I understand that, no one is claiming that the women priests are not following their consciences over what the Church teaches. I accept that.

But that does not exclude them from judicial censor. The Church commits no act of injustice in barring them from Holy Communion. Likewise, any who act on judgements of conscience in ways that violate Church teaching. The Church has no obligation what-so-ever to respect that judgement.*

If a priest, in accordance with his conscience, violates a specific directive from the bishop or the Pope, or even declares himself to be a sedevancantist; what right would that priest have to continue to be a pastor. Would the priest be able to claim CCC 1800 as a means to*not be suspended?

So you have not made any connection between CCC 1800 and AL.

Yes, people have to obey their consciences, but the Church is under no obligation to accept that judgement and to give them what they ask for.*

Do*you disagree?
 
Thomas,

I thought of a connectionbetween CCC 1800 andAL

Suppose there were a couple in a divorced and remarried situation. They discussed with their pastor, and their*pastor decided that the couple should begin to receive Holy Communion.

A third person in the parishcomes to know of this, and seeking, out ofa judgement of conscience, seeks to prevent what heconsiders to be sacrilege by blocking that couple each time theyattempt to*receive Holy Communion.

We both agree that this third person SHOULD follow their conscience and attempt to block the couple, despite the conscience being opposed to the ecclesial teachings of the Church.

What action(s) should the pastor take?
 
There was no conscious attempt to paraphrase Aquinas. I thought mainly of Aristotle, from which the philosophy of Aquinas is largely derivative. For the discussion of conscience, Kant and his concepts of the Categorical Imperative and practical reason, i.e., of synthetic a priori judgments would be the primary reference.
I wasn’t really suggesting you were…however in so far as you were trying to explain Church teaching on conscience, an important concept in moral theology, you will be driving in Aquinas’s world - which as you say himself largely drives in Aristotles.

I am not sure how easy it may be to use modern philosophers to explain a concept that is largely the fruit of a scholastic system.

So the small point I was making is that for scholastics faith is primarily seen as a virtue that perfects the intellect. And that leads to hope and charity and so engages the will.
But not necessarily.
Practical reason is intuitive. It is also transcendental. This is helpful for an understanding of CCC 1780, I think, and why the conscience is spiritual.
Oh dear, “intuitive” and “transcendental”. According to whose philosophic system!
I find “intuitive” an interesting word.
For myself I tend to use it, amongst other things, to identify non-conceptual communications of the intellect to consciousness. So that would suggest it plays an important role in the “voice of conscience”. But it comes from the intellect and appears as a “feeling”. Just like those of the heart…yet different.
In Aquinas, virtue is objective knowledge and this follows Classical Greek philosophy.
Its probably more complicated than this. Some virtues perfect the will, some the intellect. some the “irrational appetites”.
It was Augustine who first attempted to present an Asiatic religion in a manner understandable to the Western World, and the influence of Classical Greek philosophy in this endeavor should not be discounted. The primacy of the head (mind) became the traditional way of philosophers and theologians,
I think it is again a bit more complicated than this. Use of logic and judgements and concepts and tight definitions and categories is certainly the way of the west, as reflected in our jurisprudence as well. There is also an integration of appetites and love and emotion into the structure as well.
but there is a separate tradition in the Church. It is the way of mysticism and of many Catholic Saints–and not the way of reason and the intellect.
You are referring to Platonic structures, which was mainstream in the Church until the 1100s when the Muslims made the lost works of Aristotle accessible? or perhaps hesychiasm?
I do not know what “emotions of the soul” might mean.
I added it to my list as I have seen the expression used by Aquinas in my radings of the last few months - was wondering if you would query it as I have been. Haven’t discovered what he means as yet. Any thoughts - it will no doubt derive from Aristotle if its a real concepot as opposed to a poor translation.
It seems a contradiction of terms. “Unconscious recognitions of the mind” are just that–unconscious recognitions of the mind. Well…maybe not.
Its an insight I had many years ago from the existentialists, especially Paul Riceour.
I have also noted it in modern neurology and my own experience. It is what I meant by “intuitions” above. The mind communicates with feelings to consciousness because it is quicker, especially in times of danger. Some times riding a bike I just know I have to make a sudden emergency evasive manoeuvre - its a sudden feeling/intuition…like the truth of first principles…ya just know! And sure enough, something was coming at me …registered in my peripheral vision unconsciously I suppose and I was already banking the bike by the time I actually saw the danger. There have also been some pretty weird experiements re vision.
There have been cases of people with damaged brains (some may have been surgically lobotimised) where one of the eyes no longer sees. The eye itself is fine but the sufferer is not conscious of sight in the opposite eye of the damaged side of the brain. When the good eye is covered they do tests. The questions are verbal but suggested answers are visually projected on a screen before the “bad” eye. An amazing correlation of the answers to what is projected on the screen is found. yet the patient at no time is conscious of vision. Obviously there is a subconscious communication channel to the conscious mind all the same. This is what I mean by “feelings of the mind” (intuitions) at an intellectual level.

This is why I disagree with you that conscience is a voice from the “heart” (will).
It can equally be the intellect…as Aquinas would maintain. And in fact, the workings of intellect and will are so interwoven where one is present so too the other methinks.
Anyways, just 45 years of my inconclusive musings.
 
* So, if our conscience trumps the words of the pope and ecclesiastical authority, does it also trump the words of Christ? Does “obeyed before all else*” include Christ as well?

The language of “trumping” is strange Ender.
It suggest that for you truth is ultimately having absolute blind trust in an authority.
The difficulty is how can we ever fully know or be certain re whatever external authority we are guided by … that this authority or truth in which we have placed our guiding compass from that point on remains true and certain?

You speak of “the words of Christ”.
Well, we don’t actually have his ipissima verba…we always have the fallible intermediation and interpretation of other Christians be they apostles or evangelists of generations of Christians. Then there is the problem of no original writings, copies of copies, translations.

So this means we must have some criterion within we use to decide which is the true Church, which authorities are to be trusted etc etc.

This judgement of who and what we trust is not irreversible. It is constantly testing evaluating.

Obviously we are in the Church because our consciences are at peace with what we know there and what we continue to learn and assent to. That does not mean a day cannot come when I come across some less significant aspect that I realise I find I am personally unable to assent to in my own practical circumstances. That’s OK, I will keep my judgements and acts to myself. If the Church should force the issue and, very unlikely, say that those who do not accept or practice this teaching cannot be a follower of Christ…well I suppose I would either add this to my list of "somehow they’ve got Jesus wrong on that point … or accept that I am not a follower of Christ. It wouldn’t worry me.
I would still be a follower of God if not of Christ … at least according to the Pope ;).
 
The language of “trumping” is strange Ender.
It suggest that for you truth is ultimately having absolute blind trust in an authority.
What it ought to suggest is that I mean neither more nor less than what I say - in this case the simple meaning of the word: this value is higher than that value. As I pointed out there are (at least) two instances where we are told what we “must” do; one in the comment by Cardinal Ratzinger, and the other in section 891 of the catechism, and the question I asked was which is of higher value? Why should we believe it true that Cardinal Ratzinger’s assertion that we “must” follow our conscience takes precedence over the church’s assertion that we “must” assent to her infallible teachings?
The difficulty is how can we ever fully know or be certain re whatever external authority we are guided by … that this authority or truth in which we have placed our guiding compass from that point on remains true and certain?
Are we being asked to choose between Cardinal Ratzinger and the church? Is it realistic to assume he would actually say something that contradicts church doctrine?
You speak of “the words of Christ”.
Well, we don’t actually have his ipissima verba…we always have the fallible intermediation and interpretation of other Christians be they apostles or evangelists of generations of Christians. Then there is the problem of no original writings, copies of copies, translations.
The church claims to speak the words of Christ. One cannot on the one hand claim Ratzinger as an authority whose words are to be followed without qualification or comment, and reject the church’s authority on the other. If the church herself is not a trustworthy authority then neither are any of the individuals who speak for her.
So this means we must have some criterion within we use to decide which is the true Church, which authorities are to be trusted etc etc.
This one takes us off the reservation. My only point here is that if the church can be considered an untrustworthy authority then there is no way to claim that Ratzinger - who is trying to explain what the church believes - can be trusted either. Either they are both in or they are both out, and if they are both in then Ratzinger’s “must” needs to be understood in the context of the “must” in 891.

Ender
 
Thomas,

I thought of a connectionbetween CCC 1800 andAL

Suppose there were a couple in a divorced and remarried situation. They discussed with their pastor, and their*pastor decided that the couple should begin to receive Holy Communion.

A third person in the parishcomes to know of this, and seeking, out ofa judgement of conscience, seeks to prevent what heconsiders to be sacrilege by blocking that couple each time theyattempt to*receive Holy Communion.

We both agree that this third person SHOULD follow their conscience and attempt to block the couple, despite the conscience being opposed to the ecclesial teachings of the Church.

What action(s) should the pastor take?
I don’t believe this would go over well with the pastor, and I doubt there would be a second occurrence. But what I believe is that the promptings of conscience concern the actions, or behavior, of the person relative to what would be right or wrong for him–that is, whether or not he should receive communion in a particular circumstance. It seems to me the actions of the third person, where he blocks the couple from receiving communion, is an instance of hearing a skewed voice in his conscience and for which he is responsible if he acts on it. The behavior is so egregious that it probably indicates a psychiatric disorder. And this sort of delusional behavior really happens.
 
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