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believers
Guest
The apocyrpha has errors. God doesn’t make mistakes. Man does. Therefore, the apocypha is not from God.
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lak611
Guest
You say there are mistakes. Where? Prove it.
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believers
Guest
I don’t have to prove it. I’ve already done that for myself. Don’t take my word for it. Anyone can easily do the research on that one. You obviously have access to the internet. Google is just a few clicks away.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
No you are wrong. Martin Luther remove the 7 Books in 1517 A.D. The Apostles and Jesus quoted these books, and Paul said in 2 Tim 3:16 that all Scripture are inspired Word of God.
1517 yrs before the Reformation, the Church had those 7 Books in the NT. If you say it contains errors, you just contradict Paul. During Jesus Christ time, and the Apostles, these books were used.
Second, the Jews during and before Jesus Christ did not have a set canon of Scripture. It was not until the Council of Jamnia in 90-100 A.D. when the Jews felt threatened by the Christians, that they say the Septuagint and the Deutorocanonical Books should not be used.
and these Jews do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Why do you want to follow the unbelieving Jews over the rest of the Christians who used these Books.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge these facts? I encourage you to do your research on the Bible, and you will see the Truth.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spexecsum.htm More support for the Septuagint cited in the NT.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
It’s strange that a Bible believing believer loves Scripture but is unwilling to challenge himself that these Books were used. There are even some Protestants who do not deny these books were used by the Apostles. 
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Mannyfit75
Guest
believers,
If you love the Scripture that much, you could at least acknowledge these books were used. You can still be Protestant. I know a Protestant in this forum who admits that these books were used by the Jews in Palestine and by Jesus Christ, and his apostles, and their successors.
We all seek the Truth, and I love Scripture and Jesus Christ just as any good Christian here, Catholic or Protestant.
If you love the Scripture that much, you could at least acknowledge these books were used. You can still be Protestant. I know a Protestant in this forum who admits that these books were used by the Jews in Palestine and by Jesus Christ, and his apostles, and their successors.
We all seek the Truth, and I love Scripture and Jesus Christ just as any good Christian here, Catholic or Protestant.
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water
Guest
hello believers,
It could be helpful to explain further. After all, if you believe what you stated is right, then your information will be worth to put it up here so that I and others maybe able to learn from.
Remember that we are discussing what we believe it is true, but if we don’t want to give more info, how one could be convinced?
Thanks!
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lak611
Guest
Manny already asked you for this in an earlier post. “Find me a list of books in the Bible that have only 66 OT text from Early Christian document. Not Jews who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah.” You have not shown that list. Here’s your chance now. I cannot look it up because I know it does not exist, so you have to show me.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Believers:
There are people who use the claim that the Bible has errors in order to justify their refusal to reject the Truth of the Claims of our Lord Jesus Christ. There are those who use that claim to keep from having to look at their sinful lifestyles or to say that scripture simply isn’t relevant today.
It is historical fact that the Church didn’t define the Canon of the NT until after 400 A.D. What did the Church use? Who decided what was canonical and what wasn’t, and on what authority? Who decided that Jesus Christ was God the Son risen from the dead and not one of the dozens of formulas that were discarded in those first three centuries, and on what authority?
…And so forth for the next four centuries after that?..
And, How do you know that the Books that were accepted by the UNITED CHURCH (both East and West, Orthodox and Catholic) have errors and should be excluded from the Canon of Scripture? On what basis and authority are you saying that the Apostles and those who came after for the first 1,000 years of that Undivided Church WERE WRONG when they included these books in the Canon of Scripture?
I’m not saying that you should automatically accept everything maintained by the Catholic Church as true without reasonable proof, but I am asking you to consider those claims without the scepticism and cynacism you’ve expressed these past few days, as the Catholic Church can demonstrate that it is the Church founded by Christ which none of our Protestant churches, including the Anglican, Lutheran and Anabaptist, can do.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
P.S.: And, If the Bible were all we needed, How did we end up with 30,000 different Denominations all claiming to be “Bible Christians”, all claiming to base their church life on the Bible, none of whom talk to, pray for or pray with each other?
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Lak511:
I’m joining the list of people who are seeking honorary residency in the State of Missouri. The fact is that even Jesus made allusions to books in the Alexandrian Canon (some were originally in Aramaic, and the Holy Family had spent 6 or 7 years in Egypt).
The question isn’t just one of lists - It’s also one of useage, and here the case is made repeatedly by the Apostles who made allusions to episodes and by Post Apostolic Church Fathers, and other Early Church Fathers, who used direct quotes to make their points.
Regarding the Jewish Council of Jamnia and the 4 “Curses” required of all newcomers against Jesus, His resurrection from from the dead and those who follow Him:
1 Cor 12:3 NIV
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=12&verse=3&version=31&context=verse
There is a traditional story that has been told that as Jerusalem was falling to the Romans, the huge doors of the Temple opened on their own and the PRESENCE left. As He left, the High Priest took off his keeys, held them up and asked The PRESENCE to take them if he was no longer worthy to keep them. The PRESENCE took them.
The Keys look exactly like what you’ll see on the Papal Seal hanging on the rope around the Papal tiarra.
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
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Subrosa
Guest
Yes, this is true. But all of them used the deuterocanons. The Greek Orthodox uses all of the books that the Catholic Church uses, as well as 3 Maccabees and Psalm 151. So do the Coptic, Armenian, and all the rest of the Apostolic Churches. Not any of the churches use all of the Septuagint books.
The Ethiopian Church even has a larger New Testament. They use the two Letters of Clement to the Corinthians. Many of the early churches used even more books such as the Gospel of James, various Acts of different Apostles and so on. The one thing they all had in common was the Septuagint. This is fact.
It is true that the Roman Church does not use all of the books of the Septuagint. Here’s a list posted on a Protestant website… www.ccel.org
ccel.org/bible/brenton/
This is not true. The books were not canonized until then. It was a reaction to the Reformation and the Protestant’s rejection of the books. The Church had no reason to canonize them until then. They had, and have been using the same books from the very beginning.
Paul used the Septuagint exclusively. All of the Old Testament quotes in the Bible come from the Septuagint exclusively.
Your argument is fellacious. At no time have all the books of either the Greek or Hebrew scriptures been accepted as canonical. The Jews used the same books as the Christians until the Council of Jamnia in the year 90 A.D. Some of the Hebrew versions of the deuterocanons have been found at Qumran, also known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Jews rejected those books as a result of the great success that the Christians that used them. Check your facts.
Martin Luther removed the books because they didn’t fit with his theology. The Christian church from the very beginning has used these books. These books were debated and discussed for over a hundred years. Martin Luther removed them all on his own.
Get it right.
Subrosa
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Reformed1
Guest
The point I was trying to make is that their were varying opinions on the canonicity or inspiration of the deuteros.
What isn’t true?
I know for a fact that there was still disagreement on the canonocity of the deuteros all the way up until the reformation. Even Pope Gregory had his issues with at least one book…I believe it was 1 Maccabees. I’ve heard it debated whether he held this opinion while he held the papacy but if the issue was settled, why would he disagree, openly no less, with the church? Also, Cardinal Cajetan, one of the premier or maybe the premier Catholic theologian at the time of the reformation doubted the canonicity of at least some of the deuteros. Again, if the issue was settled, why would one of the leading Catholic theologians openly hold a contrarian view?
Paul used the septuagint, so?
How is my argument fallacious?
It seems some of you think that the following is valid arugment:
The deuteros are canonical.
The apostles and Jesus quoted from the septuagint.
The septuagint included the deuteros.
Therefore, the deuteros must be inspired and canonical.
If you guys are in fact arguing this way than your reasoning is flawed, heres why. The septuagint included books that you don’t deem canonical or inspired so if you want to use the above argument you are stuck with accepting all the books that are included in the septuagint such as 3 Maccabees.
There may be other arugments in support of using the deuteros but the fact that the apostles used the septuagint does not help you at all.
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maggieodae
Guest
Which was set by the Jews after Jesus came.
There is more than a little evidence that Jews used those scriptures up until 70 AD.It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know they had an agenda. The agenda was to take out any prefiguring of Christ which the early Christians used in their teaching.
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Reformed1
Guest
Does 1 and 2 Maccabees or Tobit prefigure Christ?Which was set by the Jews after Jesus came.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know they had an agenda. The agenda was to take out any prefiguring of Christ which the early Christians used in their teaching.
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Subrosa
Guest
The blind fact is that these books have been used from the very beginning. There has never been time in Christan history when they were not used. Martin Luther’s singular removal of them was irresponsable at best. For you to say that thier use is lligitiate is to overlook history and reality.
The reality is this: the Catholic Church accepts them and post reformation churches do not. That is all there is.
On this we must agree to disagree which, by the way, is another historical reality .
Subrosa
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Reformed1,
The Book of Maccabees 1 & 2 has a verse that support praying for the dead so the sins would be taken from them.
If you are curious to look take a quick look at this
cathtruth.com/catholicbible/deut.htm
You can use the Douy Rheims Bible if you don’t have the Deut books in your Bible. Unless your KJV does have a copy on those in the back.
I like to point to 2 Tim 3:16 that states all Scripture are inspired Word of God.
During time of the Apostles, the Deutrocanonical Books were used as the website I stated.
You cannot deny the Apostles and Jesus did use them.
The Book of Maccabees 1 & 2 has a verse that support praying for the dead so the sins would be taken from them.
If you are curious to look take a quick look at this
cathtruth.com/catholicbible/deut.htm
You can use the Douy Rheims Bible if you don’t have the Deut books in your Bible. Unless your KJV does have a copy on those in the back.
I like to point to 2 Tim 3:16 that states all Scripture are inspired Word of God.
During time of the Apostles, the Deutrocanonical Books were used as the website I stated.
You cannot deny the Apostles and Jesus did use them.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
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Reformed1
Guest
I don’t know why the Jews rejected Maccabees but certainly the prayers for the dead have nothing to do with Jesus.
I haven’t done anything yet but many of the texts that are supposed “allusions” to the deuteros can also be easily linked to the books both of us agree are canonical.
As far as whether the apostles used the deuteros, I’m not sure it is all that certain.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The subject here is the book of Maccabees. Praying to the dead is a common Jewish practice.
The Jews rejected the Book of Maccabees in the Council of Jamnia because they feel threaten by the Christians at the time who widely used both the Tanakh and the Septuagint.
As far as whether the apostles used the deuteros, I’m not sure it is all that certain.
In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Judas Maccabee orders that sacrifices be offered in the Temple in Jerusalem for slain Jewish soldiers who had worn pagan amulets (good-luck charms).
Some people have seen this story as biblical justification for the teaching on purgatory. That certainly overstates the author’s intention. If, however, those Jewish soldiers did something wrong by wearing pagan amulets, why offer sacrifices on their behalf?
The two Books of Maccabees are probably not in your Bible because they were originally written in Greek. During Jesus’ lifetime, some Jewish people regarded these books as inspired by God.
About 60 years after Jesus’ death, however, rabbis at Jamnia in Palestine drew up the list (canon) of the Scriptures used by Jewish people to this day. That shorter list includes only works composed in Hebrew, excluding the two Books of Maccabees, five other books and parts of the Books of Daniel and Esther.
For centuries, Eastern and Western Christians accepted as inspired the longer list. When Martin Luther translated the Bible, he used the shorter list. Sometimes, these seven books are printed in Protestant Bibles as “Deutero-canonical” or “Apocrypha.”
The New Testament and early Christian writings offer some evidence for purgatory. In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died. The earliest mention of prayers for the dead in public Christian worship is by the writer Tertullian in 211 A.D.
The question of purgatory and praying for the dead was a major issue between Catholics and Protestants in the 16th century. The Council of Trent’s 1563 decree about purgatory reaffirmed its existence and the usefulness of prayers for the deceased, yet it cautioned against “a certain kind of curiosity or superstition…” about it.
The Roman Catholic teaching on purgatory reflects its understanding of the communion of saints. We are connected to the saints in heaven, the saints-in-waiting in purgatory and other believers here on earth. Prayers for the deceased are not a means of buying their way out of purgatory.
The Catholic Church’s teaching about purgatory (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1030-32) says that all sin, unfortunately, has a life of its own and may have bad effects even after the sinner repents. Sincere repentance includes a desire to repair the damage done by one’s sins. That may or may not be complete before the person dies.
When the world ends at the Final Judgment, there will be only two possibilities: heaven and hell. We who celebrate Jesus’ Resurrection over sin and death look forward to sharing in that victory, and we pray that our beloved dead may do the same.
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