The 7 new mortal sins

[That_one_guy]

I’m sure you are a very fine person TOG, and I don’t doubt your good intentions. But between citing PETA as an authoritive source and starting threads about the [non-existant] 7 new mortal sins, I’d say you may need to be a little more careful about where you get your information.

The topics are fine, and can certainly be discussed rationally and productively, but not if one side keeps posting information with little basis in reality.

Hey,Sam!What’s up?
The information is irrefutable.PETA is a fine source for information, although I admit they have a bad reputation.As for the 7 NEWmortal sins,…that’s the way the papers wrote it.Certainly grabbed your eye didn’t it?

And then there’s reality.What a concept!
Is it subjective, or objective?By one token it could be subjective.Particularly if the issues we are discussing appear to be a threat.While, on my end of the rope it seems to be a means of possible solution to an ever growing problem, perhaps on your end of the rope it appears to be a threat to your financial security.
My grampa had a small ranch,when I was a kid, outside a little placed called Oracle,AZ.It was called Rancho Sombrero Viejo.I also know some ol boys who used to work Reddington Pass and Rita Ranch down around Tucson.These guys lost their jobs because of the environmental impact the ranches were having on the surrounding areas.The ranchers themselves actually made mony by being forced to sell off the land to developers.But, if you know anything about being a wrangler,it’s a job you do because you love being a cowboy.So,naturally, these ol boys are pissed.
One of them passed away a few years back, he was dying of cancer.I was his caretaker and liason for the hospice folks when they came around.One of the things he said to me was that the environmentalists were right,and all his cowboy buddies knew it.The cows that got sent of to be milked were treated poorly.The bulls that couldn’t breed anymore were treated poorly.The waste from the animals and the flies were spreading disease slowly.He said that the ranch had to get money from the government to buy grain from overseas to suppliment feeding the stock because the free range grazing areas couldn’t support the cattle.
I don’t know.It sort of had an effect on me.

He told me lots of stories that weren’t as romantic or ideal as the idea of being a cowboy was to me as a kid.A lot of the cool stuff, such as the old roundups and trails to the railroads or stockyards.He said there was a point where you just stopped loving the job and had to get real hard in your heart.Because once the cattle was at the yard.They were about to get treated real mean.This is what he told me.On his death bed.Ol Dave was a BS-er,no doubt about that.But, I believe he was truly sorry about some of the things he knew were gonna happen after the cattle got to the yards.He fancied himself a sort of shepherd.Except he didn’t like the way cow-herd sounded.

 

[Sam_Maloney]

Hey,Sam!What’s up?
The information is irrefutable.PETA is a fine source for information, although I admit they have a bad reputation.As for the 7 NEWmortal sins,…that’s the way the papers wrote it.Certainly grabbed your eye didn’t it?

.

Grabbed my eye, because its a lie.

As to PETA: I give up. There is none so blind…

 

[That_one_guy]

A few tidbits from ABC news

abcnews.go.com/Business/WireStory?id=4295252&page=1

Seth Nitschke spent his early 20s working at large feed lots before he returned home to start a business raising beef cattle fed on the grasses of the Sierra Nevada foothills.

Nitschke, 31, who herds heifers through pastures near Yosemite National Park, doesn’t consider himself an environmental activist,…he and a new crop of cattlemen are quietly working to minimize their industry’s ecological footprint and are forging unlikely alliances with environmental groups.

“Look at this grass. If I don’t take care of it, that’s my livelihood,” Nitschke said, kneeling as he examined foxtail shoots. “We dress differently than the eco-folks, we probably vote differently, but in the end there’s a lot of ways
in which our core values are really close.”

 

[That_one_guy]

Here’s a tidbit from the US Government Accountability Office

gao.gov/products/GAO-08-944

Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations (CAFO) are large livestock and poultry operations that raise animals in a confined situation. CAFOs can improve the efficiency of animal production but large amounts of manure produce can, if not properly managed, degrade air and water quality.

 

[Fran65]

CAFO? I would rather give up eating meat. I try and eat only free range and meat that is welfare certified. Its more expensive, but I’d rather eat less than eat abused animals. If I can’t afford it I’ll stop eating meat altogether.

 

[wcknight]

As much as I am a devout Catholic, I am also a devout meat eater.

As my dear sister always says, IF God had wanted us to be vegetarians, He would never have made cows so tasty… yummmmm !! I suppose He could have made them taste like castor oil…

I don’t know if Jesus ate meat, but he did eat fish, didn’t He… yes ???

And John the Baptist ate locust… yuck !! but they are alive… I don’t know if you consider locust animals… not mammals per se, but part of the animal kingdom.

 

[That_one_guy]

As much as I am a devout Catholic, I am also a devout meat eater.

As my dear sister always says, IF God had wanted us to be vegetarians, He would never have made cows so tasty… yummmmm !! I suppose He could have made them taste like castor oil…

I don’t know if Jesus ate meat, but he did eat fish, didn’t He… yes ???

And John the Baptist ate locust… yuck !! but they are alive… I don’t know if you consider locust animals… not mammals per se, but part of the animal kingdom.

Why does everybody think this about eating meat? Is it because you feel guilty?

That’s what Lent is for.
sheesh!

 

[Ed_Rand]

As much as I am a devout Catholic, I am also a devout meat eater.

As my dear sister always says, IF God had wanted us to be vegetarians, He would never have made cows so tasty… yummmmm !! I suppose He could have made them taste like castor oil…

“The Antichrist will fool many people because he will be viewed as a humanitarian with a fascinating personality, who espouses vegetarianism, pacifism, human rights and environmentalism.”—Cardinal Biffi, London Times, Friday, March 10, 2000

I thought this quote was strange until I read 1 Timothy Chapter 4:

“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”

I sympathize with vegetarians. I understand where they’re coming from. I also think that people, especially in the US, eat too much meat. I think the passage above rebukes vegetarians/vegans most of all, but it is also pretty critical of a fast food culture.

So eat your meat with sound conscience. But with every bite, we should remember to praise God.

 

[cathybramble]

As much as I am a devout Catholic, I am also a devout meat eater.

As my dear sister always says, IF God had wanted us to be vegetarians, He would never have made cows so tasty… yummmmm !! I suppose He could have made them taste like castor oil…

I don’t know if Jesus ate meat, but he did eat fish, didn’t He… yes ???

And John the Baptist ate locust… yuck !! but they are alive… I don’t know if you consider locust animals… not mammals per se, but part of the animal kingdom.

according to one author, human flesh tastes like veal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Buehler_Seabrook

i mean, if man is supposed to go by what tastes good, then i’m not sure how the cannibal cultures were supposed to know that it was wrong to eat other humans “if it is tasty let’s eat it.” why did God give the jews a dietary code if that were the case?

i know that’s not on topic for this thread and i do not care what you eat, but i always find it interesting when people say we should eat animals because they are tasty - it really doesn’t make any sense in my opinion

 

[cathybramble]

“The Antichrist will fool many people because he will be viewed as a humanitarian with a fascinating personality, who espouses vegetarianism, pacifism, human rights and environmentalism.”—Cardinal Biffi, London Times, Friday, March 10, 2000

I thought this quote was strange until I read 1 Timothy Chapter 4:

“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”

I sympathize with vegetarians. I understand where they’re coming from. I also think that people, especially in the US, eat too much meat. I think the passage above rebukes vegetarians/vegans most of all, but it is also pretty critical of a fast food culture.

So eat your meat with sound conscience. But with every bite, we should remember to praise God.

the passage does not rebuke vegetarians at all. it rebukes those who reject meat because they fear it was offered to an idol, or who are still holding fast to previous dietary codes. ethical vegetarianism has nothing to do with a lack of faith in God or some notion that He has given us “unclean” food to eat.

i think many of us are aware that mankind has perverted the stewardship he was given and we do not wish to support it by being consumers of it. and because of this perversion, in fact, the animals God created are being made unhealthy and unclean with antibiotics, hormones, and various other chemicals and feed that God never intended animals to eat. the best example i can think of is mad cow disease … this came from feeding rendered cattle to living cattle. what God created was a cow that ate grass, not other cows.

as for cardinal biffi… i don’t think he is saying that being a humanitarian, environmentalism, animal protection, etc are evil - but that an evil person can use those causes as a cover to make themselves look good. a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak.

 

[wcknight]

Why does everybody think this about eating meat? Is it because you feel guilty?

That’s what Lent is for.
sheesh!

Geeessshh, the post was meant to be humorous, but it apparently didn’t come across that way.

Earlier some folks seemed to imply that it was against pro-life to eat animals. Seeing how both Christ and the Baptist ate animals/fish/insects, I didn’t see how the Church could ever make veganism become the law of the land.

I only feel guilty about eating meat because I’ve had a heart condition, and I need to drastically cut back (and I have). I have no qualms morally about eating cows.

 

[Ed_Rand]

the passage does not rebuke vegetarians at all. it rebukes those who reject meat because they fear it was offered to an idol, or who are still holding fast to previous dietary codes. ethical vegetarianism has nothing to do with a lack of faith in God or a disbelief that He has given us “unclean” food to eat.

Wait, maybe I’m wrong, but weren’t the new Christians also forbidden to eat food sacrificed to idols? I cant’ remember.

I don’t think the passage is aimed at correcting their understanding that the old Law is no longer valid. In that passage, Paul says “in the last times some will turn away from the faith” Well, the early Christians had turned away from the dietary laws of the Jewish faith, so it doesn’t make sense that he’s warning about previous dietary codes.

Also, I think you would agree that very many people who adopt vegetarianism, and especially veganism, turn that into a religion of its own. I’ve seen it myself many times.

I presume you are a vegetarion? (sorry if I’m wrong) But wouldn’t you agree that a great many vegetarians adopt that lifestyle because they believe eating meat is morally wrong? And isn’t this a sign of disbelief in God’s promises? The change of dietary laws for the first Jewish converts was a huge deal that I don’t think we can relate to all that well. For them, anyone putting new restrictions on food would have been a very serious matter. Actually, if one of them started preaching vegetarianism, I think he would have been soundly rebuked.

I’m not saying that you cannot be a Christian vegetarian. But I think many would agree that it can be a trap.

i think many of us are aware that mankind has perverted the stewardship he was given and we do not wish to support it by being consumers of it. and because of this perversion, in fact, the animals God created are being made unhealthy and unclean with antibiotics, hormones, and various other chemicals and feed that God never intended animals to eat. the best example i can think of is mad cow disease … this came from feeding rendered cattle to living cattle. what God created was a cow that ate grass, not other cows.

agreed.

as for cardinal biffi… i don’t think he is saying that being a humanitarian, environmentalism, animal protection, etc are evil - but that an evil person can use those causes as a cover to make themselves look good. a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak.

agreed. and I would add that vegetarianism and veganism are good sheep’s clothing because they can quickly become quazi-religious beliefs for those who practice, and these beliefs are nowhere espoused in Scripture or by the Church.

 

[cathybramble]

Wait, maybe I’m wrong, but weren’t the new Christians also forbidden to eat food sacrificed to idols? I cant’ remember.

actually now as i think about it you’re right - i was thinking about when paul told off peter about the circumcision thing.

I don’t think the passage is aimed at correcting their understanding that the old Law is no longer valid. In that passage, Paul says …]

you are probably right (i’m thinking of when he said that people who only eat vegetables are weak in faith and i applied a similar explanation here) - but… i don’t think that paul is talking about refusing to eat something on an ethical basis.

i mean, he says we shouldn’t refuse anything as long as we accept it with thanks but… i don’t think he means we should eat raw pork just because it’s offered. likewise, i don’t think he means that we can’t boycott certain products that we feel are created by immoral methods or means. we as catholics do it all the time by avoiding donations that, for example, help planned parenthood.

…]
I presume you are a vegetarion? (sorry if I’m wrong) But wouldn’t you agree that a great many vegetarians adopt that lifestyle because they believe eating meat is morally wrong?

yes i am vegan and i agree - some people turn it into a religion. you have the stereotypical athiest animal rights person - sadly they are the ones who get the most attention. i belong to a christian vegetarian mailing list (all-creatures.org/cva/default.htm)). i think there are something like 700 of us on that list, but since we’re not out there throwing paint on women in mink coats… you’d hardly know we exist.

And isn’t this a sign of disbelief in God’s promises? The change of dietary laws for the first Jewish converts was a huge deal that I don’t think we can relate to all that well. For them, anyone putting new restrictions on food would have been a very serious matter. Actually, if one of them started preaching vegetarianism, I think he would have been soundly rebuked.

not too sure of that…some of our great saints/early christians/ doctors of the church were vegetarians!
st. jerome, st. basil, st. john chrysostom, right off the top of my head.

then you have the early ascetic communities, most of them abstained from meat. as someone pointed out elsewhere, it is in the rule of st. benedict, that only the sick and weak should eat meat. (chapter 36)

so i guess at one time, some very holy people felt that vegetarianism was not inconsistent with Church teachings. as for me, i have many faith-related reasons for abstaining from animal-based food.

I’m not saying that you cannot be a Christian vegetarian. But I think many would agree that it can be a trap.

there are a lot of otherwise good philosophies that can be taken to extremes or mis-applied and become traps… certainly veg-ism is one of them.

agreed. and I would add that vegetarianism and veganism are good sheep’s clothing because they can quickly become quazi-religious beliefs for those who practice, and these beliefs are nowhere espoused in Scripture or by the Church.

well… yes and no… to be honest, the stereotypical angry militant AR person is often athiest. not always but often. i think this is because mankind truly has a need for religion - so if someone doesn’t want to accept an existing one, this instinct can drive them to create one of their own.

i am not sure about scripture or Church not “espousing” vegetarianism. it doens’t explicitly call for it but, if we believe that harming the environment, abusing animals, being greedy, and gluttonous ARE actually sins, we are better off to be vegetarian, than to participate or contribute to those sins. i’m NOT saying that eating meat necessarily does or that it is morally inherently wrong, but if it DOES contribute to those sins, it’s better for our own souls to skip the meat. that is my opinion.

thanks for your comments and corrections ed, you raise some really good points

 

[That_one_guy]

“The Antichrist will fool many people because he will be viewed as a humanitarian with a fascinating personality, who espouses vegetarianism, pacifism, human rights and environmentalism.”—Cardinal Biffi, London Times, Friday, March 10, 2000

I thought this quote was strange until I read 1 Timothy Chapter 4:

“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions through the hypocrisy of liars with branded consciences. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected when received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the invocation of God in prayer.”

I sympathize with vegetarians. I understand where they’re coming from. I also think that people, especially in the US, eat too much meat. I think the passage above rebukes vegetarians/vegans most of all, but it is also pretty critical of a fast food culture.

So eat your meat with sound conscience. But with every bite, we should remember to praise God.

Thanks for comparing me to the anti-Christ.I’m not sure if I should be insulted or amused.It’s been bugging me all day.

 

[cathybramble]

actually, somewhere in that ramble above, i meant to post this link, which explains how vegetarianism has a christian basis:

all-creatures.org/cva/honoring.htm

 

[cathybramble]

Thanks for comparing me to the anti-Christ.I’m not sure if I should be insulted or amused.It’s been bugging me all day.

you’re not the anti-christ?

i don’t think actual humanitarians, human rights people, environmentalists and pacifists are being likened to the anti-christ in that quote. i mean… Jesus was a humanitarian pacifist himself.

 

[Ed_Rand]

thanks for your comments and corrections ed, you raise some really good points

You too! I hadn’t thought about all the ascetic Church fathers and such. The title of that section in my Bible is “False Asceticism”. The Church fathers asceticism was a product of their faith. I think that’s the key. It looks like it’s the same with you. It’s the same with me too. I feel guilty about eating large quantities of meat when there are so many in the world who would climb the highest mountain just to eat a steak. With all the hunger in the world, it is hard no to feel guilty in the most abundant, rich society in the world. I have no doubt that abstaining from all sorts of things because of faith is always good.

The part of that passage that I find really interesting is that these people preach this false asceticism because of “branded consciences”. What does that mean? I have a feeling that it means that these people would have forsaken important parts of the faith, and, knowing this to be wrong, they attempt to make up for their transgressions by preaching asceticism in other areas. The liberal movement is full of guilt. I know, I am a liberal on so many issues. It is a righteous guilt it many ways. However, many liberals are “hypocrites and liars”, because they project that guilt out without ever looking in. They’ll condemn the wars, condemn the gluttony of their society, fight for animal rights, put their lives on the line to save a tree etc. etc., but when it comes to the parts of their personal lives that don’t line up with Biblical principles… Oh no! Don’t criticize them you bigot!

Example: The liberal, moralizing, vegan who lives in sexual sin and would refuse and even mock all Church teachings in regard to sexuality.

Example: The President elect whose outlook on the state of the U.S. and the world and whose concern for the poor I really tend to agree with who then turns around and says that he doesn’t want his daughter “punished with a baby” for making a mistake.

“The fruit of abortion is nuclear war”–Mother Theresa

This says to me that the liberals in the U.S. need to understand that their failures are intimately related to the failures of the selfish, “I am not my brother’s keeper” war-hawk conservatives.

Also, I think you would agree that the same non-Biblical reasons that some people preach vegetarianism will also be used to preach abortion as a solution.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Thanks for comparing me to the anti-Christ.I’m not sure if I should be insulted or amused.It’s been bugging me all day.

Whoa! Whoa! brother! That’s not what I said at all. I’ve been agreeing with pretty much everything you’ve been saying, so if you’re the antichrist I’m really in trouble!

 

[Ed_Rand]

Hey that one guy!,

It looks like there’s a bowling ball in that vegan food pyramid in your signature. I seriously doubt there’s much nutritional value in such things. Be careful what you’re being fed!!!..

 

[That_one_guy]

Whoa! Whoa! brother! That’s not what I said at all. I’ve been agreeing with pretty much everything you’ve been saying, so if you’re the antichrist I’m really in trouble!

Actually,yes i recognize your support.But,I also recognize that Veganism could be one of the tools the anti-Christ could use to promote its agenda.So,it struck a chord.That’s all.
I’m one of those people who is always checking and re-checking themselves so I don’t get something wrong.Not that I fear being wrong.But,that I fear I could sin.either directly or indirectly.I walk on spiritual eggshells.(but,they’re fake eggshells-tofu eggshells )