The abortion debate

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Aquinas11 said:
Let’s say a poor father is struggling to get by with 6 children. He robs a store to take food and kills someone. Is he selfish, or is he thinking of the well being of the other 6 children? We don’t know. Probably he doesn’t know. Only God knows.
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I’m guessing you think that’s a slam dunk. It’s not. Yes, he broke a law. But what should be his punishment? Meanwhile the poor woman who has an abortion has not broken any laws–you will of course say natural law, the Church’s law, moral law, etc., but in the US she has not broken any state or federal laws. Should we judge him and say “He was selfish?” You can if you want, but I couldn’t.
 
Aquinas11 said:
nd thus caused person to need to get on boat. But as you said , storm just happened, hence bogus analogy
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I’m not talking about abortion. I’m not one of those sad people who constantly thinks about it and brings it into every single discussion. My analogy is about being selfish, and labelling people as “selfish” when you have no idea what their motivation is.
 
Pattylt said:
she is choosing her right to self autonomy over the right to life…she is choosing herself, for multiple reasons or few over the life of the baby.
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You’re falling into the same line of thinking here. “She is choosing her right to self autonomy…” How do you know that? Maybe she doesn’t even know what that means. Let’s say it together and mean it: We can’t know the mind of another person. Only God can. So we cannot judge them.
 
Religious arguments don’t work especially among the athiests and agnostics. There are also those religious that don’t want to impose their beliefs, so the secular ones are more effective.
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
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Pattylt:
You will find it is often selfishness. Should selfish reasons be enough to override the right to life?
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Let’s get away from abortion and tell a story.
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Yes, let’s tell stories. I love stories, so entertaining. Stories can express truths too.

Abortion is an act however, and that act takes an innocent human life.
Your request “Let’s get away from abortion…” doesn’t let the child victims get away, does it? You are the one escaping, not the small child.

You shouldn’t let hypothetical stories deflect from the hard work of moral evaluation.
 
The Catholic Church has definitive Teachings with regard to Abortion…
So, “Debate” in one sense becomes mute for Catholics…

From the CCC

Thou Shalt Not Kill: … Abortion (Abridged)

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
 
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Viki63 said:
They say that a woman cannot be “forced” to carry a fetus to term. That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body. This reduces women to the role of slaves to fetuses. So abortion has to be available.
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I don’t seem to have much success with this but I think the closest analogy is conjoined twins who share a vital organ. Currently, one could live if they were seperated, but the other would die. There is a transplant that would allow both to live, but there is a 9 month waiting list. Absent an immediate danger to the life of the twin who would survive anyway I doubt anybody would honestly support an immediate seperation.
 
catholic03 said:
A lot of pro choice women are pro choice for a few reasons. They know deep down that abortion is a heinous act and that it is evil.

Many of them have had abortions and know what it is like to see the process and understand how evil it is. To cope with the tremendous guilt they become radically pro choice. It is quite sad, but if you understand that this is the root problem, then maybe you can convince them that it is much better to be freed of guilt by God than to try and cope with it by lashing out at anyone who disagrees.
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That is true, I’ve seen it happen. They will do anything to try to get rid of the guilt, to reframe everything they can, to argue that abortion is not evil.

I saw a video recently, it was not easy to find (it wasn’t on YouTube), that showed an actual abortion taking place. It was as graphic as you can possibly imagine. Nothing was left to the imagination, they showed everything that it was possible to show. Without getting specific, let’s just say mutilation took place and was shown as it happened. It was probably either late in the first trimester, or early in the second — the video didn’t say. I couldn’t download it, and “kinescoping” it by holding my smartphone up to the screen would have been the only option (I didn’t do this).

When I saw this, I thought that I would like to sit down privately with each of the Democratic presidential candidates, show them this video, and ask them how, precisely, they can explain to me why this should be permitted and provided on demand. Ditto for liberal pastors in pro-choice churches.

I loved how President Trump raised the issue of late-term abortion and infanticide in his State of the Union address this year, and how the Democrats in attendance just sat there stone-faced. Why didn’t they try to defend it? Why didn’t they say “while perhaps tragic, this is acceptable because…”?
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I loved how President Trump raised the issue of late-term abortion and infanticide in his State of the Union address this year, and how the Democrats in attendance just sat there stone-faced. Why didn’t they try to defend it? Why didn’t they say “while perhaps tragic, this is acceptable because…”?
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Probably for the money or so they don’t lose political support.
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
I loved how President Trump raised the issue of late-term abortion and infanticide in his State of the Union address this year, and how the Democrats in attendance just sat there stone-faced. Why didn’t they try to defend it? Why didn’t they say “while perhaps tragic, this is acceptable because…”?
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Trump was very clever in holding this up and creating a situation where these candidates have to go back to their constituencies and explain why they support it.

He is a very intelligent man, maybe not in academic erudition, but in knowing what makes people tick, what “pushes their buttons”, how to “scratch them where it itches”. He didn’t make all those deals by being naive or stupid.
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Erikaspirit16 said:
Meanwhile the poor woman who has an abortion has not broken any laws–you will of course say natural law, the Church’s law, moral law, etc., but in the US she has not broken any state or federal laws. Should we judge him and say “He was selfish?” You can if you want, but I couldn’t.
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Then you wouldn’t judge a slave master in 1850 whipping a slave. Or a husband raping his wife when marital law said husband couldn’t rape wife.
 
This woman desperately needs prayer, and that is something HUGE you can do for her. There are others out there who are waiting to hear your message that will be receptive.
 
drac16 said:
She has no right to terminate her pregnancy because God says that murder is a sin.
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Its grave matter, and very possibly a venial sin, but abortion is not necessarily a mortal sin that should be summarily placed on the shoulders of the woman involved.

There are women who don’t know abortion is grave matter; without full knowledge, there is no mortal sin.

There are women who have abortions under duress (threats to do harm, or disown them) placed on them by parents, family, friends, and the father of the child; without willful consent, there is no mortal sin.

So, while morally and religiously, abortion is evil, there are other things to consider before automatically casting judgment on the female without considering all factors that are needed to decisively conclude her having an abortion is a mortal sin, jeopardizing her eternal salvation.
 
Aquinas11 said:
Then you wouldn’t judge a slave master in 1850 whipping a slave. Or a husband raping his wife when marital law said husband couldn’t rape wife.
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You trot out slavery in every thread about abortion. I would oppose those actions, as you can oppose abortion. But would I presume to look into the mind of the slave master or husband? No. I don’t think I’d want to live next door, but I wouldn’t say “He did this because…” I think you are missing the point.
 
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EndTimes said:
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
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Correct. But all abortions were not considered murder; only one performed after the baby moved in the womb. Before this point it was not an offense against the “baby” (I’m putting in quotes because they didn’t think that way), it was an offense against the father’s rights. This has been affirmed by Pope Innocent III, numerous doctors of the church (Augustine, Jerome, Aquinas), and Canon Law. It was considered murder in all cases only after 1867. Look it up.
 
Viki63 said:
That no human being has a right to life if it requires the use of someone else’s body.
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If that view is held - What if it requires the use of someone else’s time / attention (7x24), or money? Seems overly intrusive to be tied down to another in this way?

That our age would govern whether it’s ok to kill us makes little sense to me. Similarly, physically attached to mum or not is not relevant either.
 
Curious…

Does what you contend meld with Church Teachings per the CCC? -

For, in Authority, the CCC supersedes opinions from, for instance, even Saints…
 
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Erikaspirit16 said:
She is choosing her right to self autonomy…” How do you know that? Maybe she doesn’t even know what that means. Let’s say it together and mean it: We can’t know the mind of another person. Only God can. So we cannot judge them.
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I’m not judging. I’m just stating that whatever her reasons…and there maybe many…that by having an abortion, she is choosing self autonomy over the right of her baby’s life. It’s one or the other. It doesn’t matter if she knows that that is what she’s doing…she is doing it.

I’m not catholic and I don’t have the same views of abortion that Catholics have. I’m not against abortion in every single instance. Nor do I want to remove the free will decision she may make. I don’t want her to abort if it can be prevented in any way. I think we do a terrible job in the US in forcing women to make the choice…whether it’s because she already has six kids or because it will ruin her chances to finish school. I have no theological reasons for being antiabortion. I think we have a value problem. I wish we could address the value problem rather than the God problem but it’s a long term solution, not a quick fix.

I think this could change. My solution is quite different than almost everyone here and they wouldn’t agree with it but I do agree that there are way too many abortions being performed.
 
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