The abortion debate

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Aquinas11:
Then you wouldn’t judge a slave master in 1850 whipping a slave. Or a husband raping his wife when marital law said husband couldn’t rape wife.
You trot out slavery in every thread about abortion. I would oppose those actions, as you can oppose abortion. But would I presume to look into the mind of the slave master or husband? No. I don’t think I’d want to live next door, but I wouldn’t say “He did this because…” I think you are missing the point.
You sidestepped the issue. Why did you do that?
Your remarks gave civil law a foundational basis for moral judgments. Aquinas pointed out that your remarks de facto condoned slavery, because slavery was once sanctioned by the law. Your own words caused you a problem.

Can you address that problem?
 
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EndTimes:
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
Correct. But all abortions were not considered murder; only one performed after the baby moved in the womb. Before this point it was not an offense against the “baby” (I’m putting in quotes because they didn’t think that way), it was an offense against the father’s rights. This has been affirmed by Pope Innocent III, numerous doctors of the church (Augustine, Jerome, Aquinas), and Canon Law. It was considered murder in all cases only after 1867. Look it up.
Are you aware that the authors of Genesis proposed a hammered metal dome covering the sky?
Why don’t we currently affirm that as a sane position?
Answer: because we know better, and we don’t want to be slaves to scientific ignorance.
 
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Could the 30 people in the lifeboat have taken turns being on the outside of the hull, and holding the side of the boat?

Plus the poor mother with six children could improve her circumstances after adding another child.
 
You sidestepped the issue. Why did you do that?
Your remarks gave civil law a foundational basis for moral judgments. Aquinas pointed out that your remarks de facto condoned slavery, because slavery was once sanctioned by the law. Your own words caused you a problem.

Can you address that problem?
We’ve crossed paths before, and I know I’m a slow learner, but I’m struggling to figure out what you’re talking about. I’m clueless.

First off, we seem to be using the word “judging” in totally different ways. Let’s say we take a current case: The policewoman in Dallas who walked into the wrong apartment and shot the occupant dead. Is it against the law to open the door to someone’s apartment and shoot them? Why yes, it is. So she broke the law, was “judged” by the court, and found guilty. She will go to prison. She broke the law. But can I “judge” what was in her mind? Did she really intend to kill the guy? Was her brain foggy for some reason? Who knows? And that’s my point. We don’t know what’s in her mind. And there is no way for us to know. And at this point SHE probably doesn’t know. Only God knows. So no: I can’t “judge” her motivation (or anyone’s motivation for anything). But can someone be “judged” if they commit a crime? Sure. Two different things.

So let’s go back to your hypothetical: people doing bad things that are NOT illegal at the time. Should I “judge” them? No—as I said–I cannot read their minds. I don’t know their intent, the degree of willingness in their actions, etc. I certainly can say “That’s a bad thing to do. I wouldn’t do it. I think it should be made illegal.” I’m not sure how that’s “sidestepping the issue.” What’s the issue??

As for Aquinas and de facto condoning something that’s legal, I’m sorry, but I don’'t follow you or Aquinas or your logic–or lack thereof. Are you saying that if I say “Action X is legal.” I’m somehow condoning it? I’m simply stating a fact. If I said (which I am NOT saying, and never have said) “Action X is legal, and therefore I think it is a good thing to do,” then yes, I’m condoning it. Why can’t I say “Action X is legal. But I don’t think it’s a good thing to do.” Or do you want me to say “Action X is legal, but I would throw Mr. Smith in jail because he did Action X and I personally think it’s wrong?” That’s nonsense. Vigilanteeism.

Obviously (to me anyway), some laws are good in the sense that they make bad behavior illegal. (Murder = illegal) Some laws are sort of neutral because they take actions that are neither good nor bad in themselves and make them illegal (You can’t walk on the sidewalk on Tuesdays). And some laws are bad in the sense that they penalize good behavior and make good behavior illegal (for example hiding a slave in the North in the 1850s–illegal, but a good act; or hiding Jews in Nazi Germany). The legality or illegality of any act has no necessary connection to morality.

If I’m “sidestepping” the question, I give up.
 
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Are you aware that the authors of Genesis proposed a hammered metal dome covering the sky?
Why don’t we currently affirm that as a sane position?
Answer: because we know better, and we don’t want to be slaves to scientific ignorance.
OK, here you go again… No, you don’t want to be a slave to scientific ignorance. But what if the early Church read your passage of Genesis and said, “The sky is covered with a hammered metal dome.” And what if the Church later came along and said, “No, no, we never said that the sky was covered with a hammered metal dome.” And you show them all sorts of written evidence that, yes, they in fact did say that. And they say “No, no, we never said that.”

It seems to me that’s similar to the situation here. Why not just come out and say, “Yeah, sure, that’s what they said up until 1867, but they changed their minds because of X, Y, and Z.” Honest, straightforward…

Did the Church always consider abortion a “bad” thing? Sure. Did the Church always think that all abortions were murder? No. Not until 1867.
 
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Could the 30 people in the lifeboat have taken turns being on the outside of the hull, and holding the side of the boat?

Plus the poor mother with six children could improve her circumstances after adding another child.
Hey, it’s my analogy, I get to set the rules. Make up your own analogy!
 
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EndTimes:
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion.
Correct. But all abortions were not considered murder; only one performed after the baby moved in the womb. Before this point it was not an offense against the “baby” (I’m putting in quotes because they didn’t think that way), it was an offense against the father’s rights. This has been affirmed by Pope Innocent III, numerous doctors of the church (Augustine, Jerome, Aquinas), and Canon Law. It was considered murder in all cases only after 1867. Look it up.
The change in emphasis was most likely due to an imperfect understanding of fetal development. It would be like asking the Pope today if there was a human in the next room with a locked door. He would likely say “I don’t know.” But then give the Pope an X-Ray machine, or simply open the door and let him look into the room and if he saw a person there he would say “yes, there is.” The advancement of science is like that. All by itself science contains no moral content. But when combined with moral principles it does allow the Church to proclaim what it did not proclaim previously. This does not signal a change in Church doctrine. It does illustrate a change in the application of Church doctrine based on new scientific information. Therefore the fact that the Church did not explicitly declare abortion to be murder from the moment of conception onward does not preclude the Church from doing so now with the benefit of additional practical knowledge.
 
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Does what you contend meld with Church Teachings per the CCC?
No. What do you think I am “contending”? I’m simply stating facts, not opinions. You can’t change facts. Or argue with them. Despite what Trump might think. (By the way, Colorado doesn’t border Mexico…FACT.)

You and the other anti-choice people seem to create your own meanings when it suits you. I NEVER said the Church today doesn’t think all abortion is murder. Of course they do. And some people in the Church have ALWAYS said it’s murder. Great. But, as I CLEARLY said, others, including doctors of the Church, a pope, and even Canon Law, have NOT said that in the past. My issue is that this is ignored and swept under the rug. Why? It’s factual, and not a point that can be argued. Unless of course you want to start arguing that up is down, black is white, etc. Then I’m out.
 
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The change in emphasis
An interesting spin.
Therefore the fact that the Church did not explicitly declare abortion to be murder from the moment of conception onward does not preclude the Church from doing so now with the benefit of additional practical knowledge.
No one said it did.

However, there are other scientific facts that the Church doesn’t seem to have taken into account. A lot (all? almost all?) anti-choice advocates think that unique DNA is present from the instant of conception. It’s not. Science. The casings of the two cells have to break open. Each cell’s DNA has to unravel and then break into parts. And then the various parts of DNA have to seek out their opposing match, fit together again, and yes, at that point there is unique DNA. Takes days. Just saying.
 
Why stop at abortion? Why not turn ALL human rights violations into something relative?

If your religious beliefs teach you that the sex trafficking of children is wrong, that’s cool and all. Just don’t impose that belief on hard-working sex-traffickers who may not see things your way. (Insert tongue in cheek).
The “if a woman is in a crisis pregnancy, she needs to remember she was asking for it when she had sex” is not a starting point for productive dialogue. It sets the conversation up as adversarial from the beginning.
That and . . . human rights violations are human rights violations, regardless of the motives of those who committed them. We are to judge actions, not people.
 
Why stop at abortion? Why not turn ALL human rights violations into something relative?

If your religious beliefs teach you that the sex trafficking of children is wrong, that’s cool and all. Just don’t impose that belief on hard-working sex-traffickers who may not see things your way. (Insert tongue in cheek).
Here you go again. Please get this straight: Laws may or MAY NOT reflect morality. Laws and morality are two different things. If they coincide, great. But they don’t always, as you are aware. It’s not having “relative” morality to point out that something may be legal but not moral. Surely you would say the same thing about abortion: it’s legal, but it’s not moral. Right? Are YOU being “relative”? No.

Can YOU read the minds of other people? If so, fame and fortune await. Please cut me in.
 
“You and the other anti-choice people seem to create your own meanings when it suits you.”

A-HA! … Well that clears understanding you … up!

What puts you at a discussional disadvantage is:

Catholic Teachings on Catholic Forums - Are True by Default,

And bold close-minded Anti-Catholic opinionatings become easily swept away
 
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This isn’t going to convince anyone.

That’s never my intention…

Convincings, per se, rarely exist on Debate…

Consider … Did Jesus convince everybody?
 
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I don’t see the point then and Erika has likely heard this before.
 
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I don’t see the point then and Erika has likely heard this before.

Well. Maybe give it some time… Erika has not heard everything…

And weak arguments generally get chopped down and down…

Erika’s Pro-Abortion stance - will not change anyone’s mind

Choice? God gave all Choice… It’s also known as Free Will. 🙂
 
Here you go again.
And I’ll go again and again until the salient point that I’m making registers. 🙂
Please get this straight: Laws may or MAY NOT reflect morality
First of all, I never mentioned laws. But OK, I’ll bite.

We’re talking about human rights here - specifically that of another human being in vulnerable state - not the other moral issues that get debated on CAF like wearing short skirts or showing up at Mass late. There shouldn’t be laws against the latter two. But the law can and does intervene in matters of life and death.
 
Religious arguments are weak when people in question don’t believe or are willing to brush them aside.

What’s weakest are those who attempt to either defend their e.,g
aTHEism (aka Defining oneself in terms of God -

akin to going around in a manner suggesting aCASPER_THE_FRIENDLY_GHOSTism
b/c one wants to inform everyone that they don’t believe in Casper…

As well as those who spend their entire God-Given Life attempting to Disprove God

Who is LOVE and TRUTH!

Just say’n… 🙂
 
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Laws may or MAY NOT reflect morality
You already said you wouldn’t judge the action of killing a baby because its legal
Meanwhile the poor woman who has an abortion has not broken any laws–you will of course say natural law, the Church’s law, moral law, etc., but in the US she has not broken any state or federal laws. Should we judge him and say “He was selfish?”
The “was she selfish? We don’t know” is a red herring everyone should avoid in your posts.

Nobody objects to abortion because its selfish. People object to abortion because the action kills an unborn life.
 
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