The Abortion Oxymoron

[Don_L]

The states have always seen an unborn child as a human, this is why they record known abortions and miscarriages, some used to issue death certificates.

Wow, doesn’t this raise lots of legal questions - like can a father sue for some reason?
There must be some emminatiions from penumbras somewhere?

I wonder is FOI allows a pro-life group to access the names and have monuments with the specific names on them?

 

[Jermosh]

Wow, doesn’t this raise lots of legal questions - like can a father sue for some reason?
There must be some emminatiions from penumbras somewhere?

I wonder is FOI allows a pro-life group to access the names and have monuments with the specific names on them?

They are not given a name or registered as such. As to when they issued death certs, I am not sure, it was in the 70-80s but were sued to have the practice removed.
Here is link to something recent that is being faught by the NAF and PP. nytimes.com/2007/05/22/us/22stillbirth.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

 

[Don_L]

They are not given a name or registered as such. As to when they issued death certs, I am not sure, it was in the 70-80s but were sued to have the practice removed.
Here is link to something recent that is being faught by the NAF and PP. nytimes.com/2007/05/22/us/22stillbirth.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Thanks for the link.

It’s interesting, but not surprising, to note that the pro-abortion people who are always claiming the morality of giving the pregnant potential mother the right to chose, are the same people who won’t let that same potential mother get a birth certificate or evidence of a lost life when they seek to exercise that right. Also in Illinois, when the baby is actually born and then forced to die (Obamacide) the question of “intent” suddenly becomes the new moral norm.

Hypocrisy is so hated by Christ and so worshipped as a weapon of deceit by the “any means to an end” secularist anti-God people, that it’s not hard to see who’s side their on.

 

[dominicandinah]

Yes, unfortunately so many of those ears have filters in them - placed there by selective ill informed consciences.

I’m not sure if this is a thinly-veiled smack at those who aren’t nearly upset over the war as they are about abortion, so I might be going out on a limb with this one, but so be it…a war that was started to STOP the killing, raping, victimization, etc of a nation (uhhhhh…Saddam’s dictatorship) cannot be compared to killing babies in the womb. While we have lost many brave soldiers and many brave civilians have been killed, as well, trying to compare their deaths (to stop the tyranny) to slaughtering innocent babies for convenience (and a VERY RARE instance of rape) is truly a case of comparing apples to oranges…“it just don’t jive”!!

 

[Don_L]

I’m not sure if this is a thinly-veiled smack at those who aren’t nearly upset over the war as they are about abortion, so I might be going out on a limb with this one, but so be it…a war that was started to STOP the killing, raping, victimization, etc of a nation (uhhhhh…Saddam’s dictatorship) cannot be compared to killing babies in the womb. While we have lost many brave soldiers and many brave civilians have been killed, as well, trying to compare their deaths (to stop the tyranny) to slaughtering innocent babies for convenience (and a VERY RARE instance of rape) is truly a case of comparing apples to oranges…“it just don’t jive”!!

You are out on that limb I’m afraid to say you read the wrong thing into my comment. We’re on the same side, though I might word it differently than you. I spoke to this in an earlier refutation in this same forum.

Comparing the war to abortion as moral equivelants is just a verbal trap used by the pro-abortion people to win both sides of an arguement (their take is really - war is bad - abortion is good) many, but not all of these same folks, sat on their pius hands while Bill Cllinton sent our troops into harms way scores of time, with nary a whimper of protest.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Pinklmnade17, sorry but the general commandments against murder, don’t cut it in the case of abortion, because that’s exactly the point of the debate: is it or isn’t it murder?

Don, at the time of the Apostles or early Church Fathers, women were considered just baby mills, less than human, and so on, so it’s only normal that nobody would care for their rights at that time. But today I can hardly see a reason to be stuck with those ancient ideas.
As for the Natural Law infused in our hearts, I don’t know about yours, but mine simply tells me that killing of thousands of “walking and talking” human beings cannot even compare in gravity with performing an abortion, let alone just being pro-choice (as today’s litmus test in judging public servants). That’s why I am not quite clear about the reasons why many Christians are much lenient towards warmongers than towards pro-choicers. To me this is a logical and moral failure of enormous proportions and consequences: ill informed conscience (as you call mine) = lenient towards choice; well informed conscience = lenient towards warmongering. Go figure!

And you know this about ‘women in ancient times’ because you are an historian?

It is not pro CHOICE. Abortion is what it is: infanticide. Murder of the innocent.

 

[Jermosh]

Thanks for the link.

It’s interesting, but not surprising, to note that the pro-abortion people who are always claiming the morality of giving the pregnant potential mother the right to chose, are the same people who won’t let that same potential mother get a birth certificate or evidence of a lost life when they seek to exercise that right. Also in Illinois, when the baby is actually born and then forced to die (Obamacide) the question of “intent” suddenly becomes the new moral norm.

Hypocrisy is so hated by Christ and so worshipped as a weapon of deceit by the “any means to an end” secularist anti-God people, that it’s not hard to see who’s side their on.

We have our own hypocrisy as well, but I do agree.

 

[MARYBEKAH]

I have asked this question over and over again…that kind of logic escapes me.

 

[Benadam]

And you know this about ‘women in ancient times’ because you are an historian?

It is not pro CHOICE. Abortion is what it is: infanticide. Murder of the innocent./

 

[Don_L]

Sailor Kenshin;5020803:

zalo said:

so it’s only normal that nobody would care for their rights ( women) at that time.

Zalo is correct and it doesn’t take a historian to know that Jesus liberated women.

Jesus raised a woman to the pinnacle of humanity.

You are right when you wrote it’s not pro-choice since the movement finds it’s source in the need to clean a mess caused by being unable to make choices that would prevent the mess.

Benedam,

Not certain what you’re getting at about being unable to make “choices”
that caused the mess. What choices -what mess?

Frankly, since no man has ever been gifted with an immaculate conception, nor assumed into heaven as Queen of heaven, why would any woman not feel the Church is her real home to embrace.

The real problem today is because we have erroniously elevated lesser things to higher positions and from that, we then make self-destructive judgments about the right or wrong of a thing.

Why should skin color, gender, etc. take precedence over the fact that we are all gifted by God with a precious soul and body and all made in his image- capable of true free will, the source of charity and unity with Him? The beauty of the Catholic religion is just that - all souls are equally loved, depending upon how we use His gifts (and if we not spend our time worrying about what color we received from Him or “what’s under the hood.”)
Our gender, less we forget, is “His CHOICE.”

Social frustrations cannot ever take precedence in our hearts over that fact, and when done are nothing less that the destructive wishes of the diabolical one.

 

[Benadam]

Benadam;5045904:

Benedam,

Not certain what you’re getting at about being unable to make “choices”
that caused the mess. What choices -what mess?

Don I think you misread my meaning.

I almost decided not to call it a mess. After all we are refering to human life. Abortion, euthanasia, overpopulation, these all refer to human life.

Freedom is the ability to do what ought to be done. It is the lack of this kind of freedom that made the bad choices that cause people to not want their children or not want to care for their elders or not want to share with their neighbors.

In that way I mean it is not in reality pro-choice and is the cause of a ‘so called’ mess

 

[Don_L]

Benadam -thanks for clarifying. Agreed!

 

[Benadam]

Benadam -thanks for clarifying. Agreed!

You’re welcome

 

[a_priori]

I have been reading about a locally highly publicized murder in our area where the woman murdered was pregnant. The authorities have arrested a suspect, and are going to charge her with a “double homicide”.

How can we justify charging this woman with murdering the unborn child of the victim, and still make it legal for a mother to walk into an abortion clinic and violently kill her own unborn child?

Does the state recognize the fetus as a child or doesn’t it? Who can understand this?

The definition of when life begins in America is simple. Gestational age is irrelevant. When a woman decides she wants the baby, it is life. If she decides she doesn’t want it, it isn’t life. Law enforcement proceeds accordingly. This is how the abortionists who destroy unwanted babies don’t get arrested but people who destroy wanted babies do get arrested. This is the mother of all evil rationalizations.

What happens if a woman is on her way to have an abortion and someone “murders” the baby on the way? Is it a crime?

Many Catholics voted to perpetuate this as well.