The Abortion Oxymoron

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Squishy said:
Its murder to abort a featus at that age as well i believe?
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Don’t really think 5 or 6 mo. gestation is old enough to live outside the womb on it’s own, at least not without lots of medical help.

If life begins at conception, which scientists have now determined that in fact it does, it’s murder no matter how many months gestation.

Nancy Pelosi did not try to argue this point when she was on Meet the Press, but what she did point out (a total falsehood) that the church many centuries back were not sure at what point the soul entered the body.:rolleyes: The Bishop set her straight on that pipe dream.👍
 
This is something that isn’t going to be taken positively, but in the circumstances in rape and incest there is more than one “innocent” - the female who has become pregnant (if she is not allowed to have an abortion if she wants one) is then being forced to be a human incubator for something she never asked for or wanted. No one seems to say anything about that. I have met a friend through a friend who spoke about being being raped and the insuant pregnancy - she said that before she was able to terminate it she felt like she could never get the feel of the rapist out of her. She didn’t ever want part of “him” growing inside of her. I can understand why she didn’t want to have to be a human incubator for that long. It’s very easy for people to say "well I’d never do that if it were me…"in a situation where someone has been raped or where a woman will die (and likely her child) if she doesn’t terminate. Men will never have to make this decision - the closest they will come is a wife, sister or female acquaintance - and I’m not trying to be feminist - I just think it’s very easy for someone to pass judgement in a situation they will never be in. And I’m not trying to be a feminist and discount the importance of father hood - I’m just saying that you will never know what it feels like to have a something growing inside of you and have to make a choice between loosing your life and possibly or likely the life of your child - I’ll get off off this now because I know this post is more about those people that use abortion for everyday use and not so much for the2% of the time of whatever it is where someone’s health is in danger or where someone has been raped.

Maybe one day doctors will be able to help women in other ways than just abortion - maybe onday they’ll be able to extract safely a fetus until a time when someone would be able to willingly carry it. I know this sounds science fictiony but fifty years ago, who thought that a woman wouldn’t need to have sex in order to become pregnant - who ever thought you’d be able to save fertilized eggs for years on end? At least it would be a better solution than having the fetuses terminated if the mother wasn’t well enough to carry it at the time. I don’t think abortion should be used for birth control but there are times that I can understand when a woman would want to choose that. But like I said, I’m getting off of this now and perhaps it’s better that some people just agree to disagree.
 
Sorry Ryecroft, But we must disagree. A human being pregnant -regardless of how- is not a mere “incubator” but a potential mother, that for some reason beyond man’s understanding, her Creator has allowed this situation to be. That which is inside her is not a thing, but a fully innocent precious creation of God’s. That men can’t ever have to make this decision is devoidof reality. Men are not allowed to make the “decision to slaughter” their offspring since radical feminism has replaced the natural order ordained by God and "justified " such evil, regardless of reason and convenience. This entire thing is not -can not- be reduced to just “feeling.” It is and must remain about what is right to do, in spite of our “feelings.”

The rape or incest issue doesn’t alter what must be done AFTER the evil is done. Compounding the evil, by doing a worse evil hardly makes sense -though one can certainly understand the emotions involved. Men too, have broken hearts about such things, but they too must always do what’s right, in spite of those broken hearts. Imagine if someone other than yourself had the right to murder your son or daughter just because she thought she had rights to another’s life that was temprorarily in her “incubator.”
 
Don, I’m Catholic and there are plenty of other Catholics I know who would agree with me as I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics who you know who would agree with you - this is just one of those situations where we all must just agree to disagree.
 
Ryecroft, if the Church’s(God’s) truth and clear instruction can’t convert your error in thinking, then rather than the “agree to disagree” line, I pray and continue to pray as I do every day, to convert the misdirected on this issue of life.

Being Catholic involves much more than a label - Christ said not all those who say, Lord, Lord, will enter His kingdom. We need to do as He says, through His Church. It is not our enemy, but the very way He has chosen to love us and save us.
 
The dignity of the person in the womb is no less than the parents and isn’t diminished by the parents or the circumstances that surround the parents.
 
Bonnie_Char said:
It’s not an oxymoron. It’s politics. Pro-life politicians recently created the act
and passed it during the Bush Administration, as a foot in the door to
erode Roe v Wade.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act was first introduced in Congress in 1999 by then-Congressman (later Senator) Lindsey Graham (R-SC). It passed the House of Representatives in 1999 and 2001, but not the Senate. In 2003, the bill was reintroduced in the House as H.R. 1997 by Rep. Melissa Hart of Pennsylvania. It was ultimately co-sponsored by 136 other members of the House before it passed by a vote of 254 in favor to 163 against on February 26, 2004. After several amendments were rejected, it was passed in the Senate by a vote of 61-38 on March 25, 2004. It was signed into law by President Bush on April 1, 2004.
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I was actually surprised to hear that this was the law. Feminists had fought against such a thing because they knew precisely its implications.

The law serves as a teacher in this case. Once you acdept the implcatons of one being a murder, a conscience is being formed.
 
ryecroft said:
Don, I’m Catholic and there are plenty of other Catholics I know who would agree with me as I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics who you know who would agree with you - this is just one of those situations where we all must just agree to disagree.
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I apoligize beforehand for only using a quote, but I can’t think of a better way to say it.

A TRUTH IS A TRUTH EVEN IF NO ONE BELIEVES IT
A LIE IS A LIE EVEN IF EVERYONE BELIEVES IT

And yes I believe in the Sanctity and inherent dignity of every person’s life from conception to natural death.
 
“Originally Posted by ryecroft
Don, I’m Catholic and there are plenty of other Catholics I know who would agree with me as I’m sure there are plenty of Catholics who you know who would agree with you - this is just one of those situations where we all must just agree to disagree.”

Ryecroft,

Sigh! Too many years of soft Catechesis have taken their toll. Catholicism and truth aren’t numerical things. Democracy (how many agree or don’t) may arguably be a fine political system, but it is a failure as a means of knowing God’s truth. (Remember, it was democracy that condemned Christ with the people’s cry of -“give us Barabass”)

The Church’s moral teaching on abortion goes back to its earliest days and is not disputable for Catholics as a belief. Feelings, choice, or an ill informed “conscience” cannot alter that fact.

One cannot chose to support it without grave sin being committed. It cannot be on the plate of a Cafeteria Catholic (who might legitimately, if foolishly, chose to not say the rosary for example.)

Coming to the true freedom afforded by accepting a difficult Church teaching is what brings us the unmmeasurable inner peace we all seek - even in the midst of adversity.

I continue to prayer for you enlightenment on this matter.
 
Teelynn said:
I have been reading about a locally highly publicized murder in our area where the woman murdered was pregnant. The authorities have arrested a suspect, and are going to charge her with a “double homicide”.

How can we justify charging this woman with murdering the unborn child of the victim, and still make it legal for a mother to walk into an abortion clinic and violently kill her own unborn child?

Does the state recognize the fetus as a child or doesn’t it? Who can understand this?:confused:
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Not me.
 
Don, if abortion was really THAT important, don’t you think that God, in His infinite wisdom, would had made it clearer in the Bible? Instead, you have only a couple of passages, not clear at all, that may be construed as anti-abortion, you have also many passages that may be construed as pro-abortion, and on top of that, Jesus never mentions it. All of a sudden, today (meaning after Roe) it becomes the crux of Christian morality and uprightness. Just a thought!
 
I think God made his opinion of abortion (murder) quite clear:

Proverbs 6:16- 17

There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are destestable to him:
haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood…

And let’s not forget the 10 Commandments! Murder is murder, whether you call it abortion, eugenics, assisted suicide, etc.
 
"zalo
Re: The Abortion Oxymoron

Don, if abortion was really THAT important, don’t you think that God, in His infinite wisdom, would had made it clearer in the Bible? Instead, you have only a couple of passages, not clear at all, that may be construed as anti-abortion, you have also many passages that may be construed as pro-abortion, and on top of that, Jesus never mentions it. All of a sudden, today (meaning after Roe) it becomes the crux of Christian morality and uprightness. Just a thought!"

As to your points Zalo,

First of all, that God didn’t make it all that clear is not true. He left not only a Bible in which some find confusion and lack of clarity, but he first sent his Apostles under Peter the Rock - His Catholic Church to bring us the unchanging truth,

He provided first for word of mouth and Tradition to also do so - the record as to longevity of the Church’s condemnation of abortion from the early Church Fathers on about the slaughter of His own precious and innocent Creations (us) is available for those that truly seek to find the truth and not just support preconceptions.

In addition, there is that which He infused in all of us - that moral guide called “Natural Law” which upon proper use leads us to knowledge that abortion is an obvious evil.

Science, recognizing that life begins at conception, provides an additional rational understanding that abortion is little more than legal justification for doing a grave evil.

It is only by searching, listening to proper authority (God’s Church) and praying, that you come to see the clarity of the wrong. I repeat, opinons, choice and an ill informed conscience, are not substitutes for joining this halocaust, either spiritually or physically.
 
zalo said:
Don, if abortion was really THAT important, don’t you think that God, in His infinite wisdom, would had made it clearer in the Bible? Instead, you have only a couple of passages, not clear at all, that may be construed as anti-abortion, you have also many passages that may be construed as pro-abortion, and on top of that, Jesus never mentions it. All of a sudden, today (meaning after Roe) it becomes the crux of Christian morality and uprightness. Just a thought!
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At least you’re calling it ABORTION, not ‘choice.’
 
Pinklmnade17, sorry but the general commandments against murder, don’t cut it in the case of abortion, because that’s exactly the point of the debate: is it or isn’t it murder?

Don, at the time of the Apostles or early Church Fathers, women were considered just baby mills, less than human, and so on, so it’s only normal that nobody would care for their rights at that time. But today I can hardly see a reason to be stuck with those ancient ideas.
As for the Natural Law infused in our hearts, I don’t know about yours, but mine simply tells me that killing of thousands of “walking and talking” human beings cannot even compare in gravity with performing an abortion, let alone just being pro-choice (as today’s litmus test in judging public servants). That’s why I am not quite clear about the reasons why many Christians are much lenient towards warmongers than towards pro-choicers. To me this is a logical and moral failure of enormous proportions and consequences: ill informed conscience (as you call mine) = lenient towards choice; well informed conscience = lenient towards warmongering. Go figure!
 
Pinklmnade17,

I fear that you have succumbed to the “that’s old fashioned” school of morality, as if God’s precious creation is somehow no longer of value. As if God has less concern about babies slaughtered a long time ago than he does now. Since God is omnipetent, time matters not to Him. Therefore whats is a grave evil then is still a grave evil now - your personal view of women as baby mills notwithstanding. I would rather prefer a woman who is a baby mill (mother) than one who chooses the convenience of slaughter of her own precious offspring any time.

I have no idea under what authority you state that the commandments don’t apply to the murder of the most innocent (who are fully alive and human at conception)

Regarding your properly formed conscience, I have know idea who you are and what you value other than what you state is a very confused argument comparing the lawful authority of a government to execute a guilty person (Which my Church says should be only a last resort) and the routine disposal of innocent human life.) A conscience may not be used to excuse one’s feelings or repeat popular immorality without following a proper course of formation first. People who refuse to see the possibility of grave sin in what they are going to do anyway, most often simply reject such formation while co-opting the moral phrase “conscience” to justify their sin.

I don’t know who you refer to as warmongers, but your right to complain about them publically acknowledges the fact that someone who went to war and died for your right to say such a preposterous blanket condemnation wouldn’t agree with you.

You post no religion, so much of what you believe may be acceptable to your belief system, but highly erronious and offensive to my God.

The criterion you put forth “walking talking” as a determinate of life, falls flat in view of science’s acknowlegement that life begins at conception. If it didn’t, what is it that growing in the womb that these pro-abortion folks are killing? Besides, adults who can’t walk or talk are not human, according to your weakly considered criterion.

Obama now aggressively supports the cruel destruction of a living baby completely outside its “mother’s” womb. In view of the support he found even among so called- Catholics, it is obvious that morality and grave sin are irrelevant to those who choose convenience over life.
 
zalo said:
Pinklmnade17, sorry but the general commandments against murder, don’t cut it in the case of abortion, because that’s exactly the point of the debate: is it or isn’t it murder?

Don, at the time of the Apostles or early Church Fathers, women were considered just baby mills, less than human, and so on, so it’s only normal that nobody would care for their rights at that time. But today I can hardly see a reason to be stuck with those ancient ideas.
As for the Natural Law infused in our hearts, I don’t know about yours, but mine simply tells me that killing of thousands of “walking and talking” human beings cannot even compare in gravity with performing an abortion, let alone just being pro-choice (as today’s litmus test in judging public servants). That’s why I am not quite clear about the reasons why many Christians are much lenient towards warmongers than towards pro-choicers. To me this is a logical and moral failure of enormous proportions and consequences: ill informed conscience (as you call mine) = lenient towards choice; well informed conscience = lenient towards warmongering. Go figure!
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zalo,

Yes, abortion is not only murder, but murder of the most innocent among human beings. The MOST HELPLESS.

Who says Christians are lenient against warmongering? I’m not about to get into a debate about the current war situation, am goint to leave that totally out of the picture. (the Pope was not in favor of the war in Iraq by the way) That being said, SOME wars are justified. God certainly does not expect a country to be attacked and or invaded by an enemy with that country not defending itself. Self defense is just a little different than the violent murder of innocent children in the womb. Children that GOD HIMSELF ordained to life. It’s like apples and oranges. War is evil, but sometimes justified. Abortion is an intrinsic evil that IS NEVER JUSTIFIED. Clear as a bell to me.
 
👍
Teelynn said:
zalo,

Yes, abortion is not only murder, but murder of the most innocent among human beings. The MOST HELPLESS.

Who says Christians are lenient against warmongering? I’m not about to get into a debate about the current war situation, am goint to leave that totally out of the picture. (the Pope was not in favor of the war in Iraq by the way) That being said, SOME wars are justified. God certainly does not expect a country to be attacked and or invaded by an enemy with that country not defending itself. Self defense is just a little different than the violent murder of innocent children in the womb. Children that GOD HIMSELF ordained to life. It’s like apples and oranges. War is evil, but sometimes justified. Abortion is an intrinsic evil that IS NEVER JUSTIFIED. Clear as a bell to me.
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“Let those who have ears…” 👍
 
Teelynn said:
I have been reading about a locally highly publicized murder in our area where the woman murdered was pregnant. The authorities have arrested a suspect, and are going to charge her with a “double homicide”.

How can we justify charging this woman with murdering the unborn child of the victim, and still make it legal for a mother to walk into an abortion clinic and violently kill her own unborn child?

Does the state recognize the fetus as a child or doesn’t it? Who can understand this?:confused:
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The states have always seen an unborn child as a human, this is why they record known abortions and miscarriages, some used to issue death certificates.
 
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