The absurdity of atheism

[Bradski]

They said that they were “forced” to think deeper about their beliefs and that strengthened their faith.

Believe this or not (Christine won’t because she thinks I’m a liar), but I would honestly be horrified if something I said caused someone to lose their faith.

 

[tonyrey]

Believe this or not (Christine won’t because she thinks I’m a liar), but I would honestly be horrified if something I said caused someone to lose their faith.

If you believe Christians believe a load of rubbish you should be delighted. It means you approve of both deception and self-deception - which always turn out to be harmful and often fatal…

 

[tonyrey]

If you guys think Bradski and Pallas Athene are “anti-theists” you need to get out more often!!

Consider: these people come to Catholic.com to discuss philosophy, religion, science, faith, politics, and other important subjects with religious believers. Many anti-theists would assume most of you are delusional and have nothing to contribute to a rational dialogue. Want to have a chat with some anti-theists? Go to the “ex-Catholic” or “ex Christian” or “ex Mormon” reddit pages. Check out the comments on youtube videos having to do with religion or philosophy. The vitriol and hatred of religion in general will astound you. Pallas Athene and Bradski are your friends guys! They respect you and your beliefs just by being here and engaging with your point of view.

Please don’t mistake a desire for well-founded arguments, solid evidence, and clear logic as an attack on your faith.

When sarcasm rears its ugly head your plea becomes less convincing…

 

[tonyrey]

Whatever it implies or forbids is irrelevant if the adherents of that principle do not follow the “teachings”. As inocente so wisely pointed out, with a “judicious” application of “quote-mining” one can find supporting verses for any kind of claim.

The truth doesn’t cease to be the truth because people are inconsistent. In fact very few people live precisely in accordance with what they claim to believe or disbelieve…

 

[inocente]

You’re one of the rare Protestants I’ve known who objects to citing Scripture for authority.

I’m against misusing scripture as you have done here. As you’ve broken forum rules by jumping threads on this (here), I will take the time to deal with your error.

Instead of quoting verses out of context, please read the entire passages: Mark 9:36-41, Luke 9:44-50, Matt 12:22-37.

You will see they are all on the same subject, the driving out of demons, and that in each case the argument is between theists. In the Matthew, theists from the Pharisee movement are told by Jesus that they blaspheme against the spirit of God and cannot be forgiven. It is because they are theists that he says whoever is not with me is against me, it is because they are theists that he says every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined.

Nothing to do with atheists, nothing to do with your gratuitous reference to Protestants. We might ask which theist today is building walls to divide the kingdom, which theist today is not gathering but scattering.

Here’s what the CCC says against quote mining:

112 1. Be especially attentive “to the content and unity of the whole Scripture”.

Please read that entire section of the CCC. Every word applies to you. Take care not to just fixate on one sentence or on what you think it should say, but on what it actually says, and on the spirit of what is said. Then, as I’ve said to you before, please go on a bible study course, please find a group you can discuss scripture with, please find resources to aid you, please let scripture as a whole speak to you, rather than cutting and pasting bits out of context to mean whatever you think they ought to mean.

 

[tonyrey]

Whatever it implies or forbids is irrelevant if the adherents of that principle do not follow the “teachings”. As inocente so wisely pointed out, with a “judicious” application of “quote-mining” one can find supporting verses for any kind of claim.

The truth doesn’t cease to be the truth no matter how many people are hypocrites. If love is the supreme good it doesn’t matter how anyone chooses to behave. Why not? Because without freedom love wouldn’t exist and without love freedom wouldn’t exist…

 

[Randy_Carson]

The atheist says that if you want the ten commandments up there, then you have to give equal concern to those who want quotes from the Koran up there as well. And the Bahavagad Gita. And some literary gems from Joseph Smith. And the Torah. And Hindu Vedas.

Since the atheist rejects ALL gods equally, why would he care whether the others got equal time?

He then goes on to say, over the cacophony of objections of each region to the perceived promotion of others that it would be a very good idea to keep religious texts within places of worship.

Conveniently forgetting the fact that the desire to worship as their conscience dictated was what drove people to come to this country in the first place. “Endowed by their creator” and all that.

The atheist says that if you want to believe in God, then that’s cool. He says that if you want to point your children in a particular direction, whilst allowing them to make their own decisions, then that’s cool too. He also says that if you want to teach children that the world is 6,000 years old then you are an idiot and he will do everything that he can to prevent that from happening.

Which is pretty much what I said.

So, you think you have the right to tell me what parents can and cannot teach their children? That’s interesting. The Soviets took a similar approach.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What trouble do you think I am likely to cause? And I mean me personally, as you seem to think that I am ‘anti-theist’.

You personally? I have no way of knowing. What I do know is that atheists have been given their marching orders:

“So when I meet somebody who claims to be religious, my first impulse is: “I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you until you tell me do you really believe — for example, if they say they are Catholic — do you really believe that when a priest blesses a wafer it turns into the body of Christ? Are you seriously telling me you believe that? Are you seriously saying that wine turns into blood?” Mock them! Ridicule them! In public! Don’t fall for the convention that we’re all too polite to talk about religion. Religion is not off the table. Religion is not off limits. Religion makes specific claims about the universe which need to be substantiated and need to be challenged and, if necessary, need to be ridiculed with contempt.”

The transcript of the speech can be found here: Transcript of Richard Dawkins’ speech from Reason Rally 2012

 

[Randy_Carson]

Believe this or not (Christine won’t because she thinks I’m a liar), but I would honestly be horrified if something I said caused someone to lose their faith.

Then I offer my apologies for having misjudged you.

Let me ask this: How would you feel if Christine said something that caused someone to have faith?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Well, you nailed me there, Christine. I am both a liar and a hypocrite. I am also vain, lazy, obstinate, self centred and I probably drink too much into the bargain. I was also going to say I was a cheat, but for the life of me I cannot remember an instance. It may be my one saving grace.

But then again, I wasn’t asking you for a character assessment. I asked you as to what trouble you think I might cause.

In your own time…

Edit: I can’t remember if I mentioned my wife’s faith or not. Never mind, it doesn’t concern you in any case.

Okay sorry, I over-reacted. Your wife is probably Catholic and you are curious about the faith because of it. Sorry,really. But there are a lot of people who send their kids to Catholic schools who are atheists, and they do belittle the faith teachings. It seems very ironic to me, and they are just using the system because they have money and know that Catholic schools provide a much better education than free public schools.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

If you believe Christians believe a load of rubbish you should be delighted. It means you approve of both deception and self-deception - which always turn out to be harmful and often fatal…

Tonyrey this is a good observation. I struggle with this myself. There is something beautiful about various religious traditions that makes one hesitate to smash them. Socrates spent his life hanging around outside “smashing” the ignorance masquerading as wisdom of his contemporaries, but he never assaulted the gods. Though he was put to death for corrupting the youth and disbelieving in the gods, he never actually spoke a word against them (in the record given to us by Plato). He never mounted an assault, though belief in the Greek gods is clearly illogical and ridiculous. Would you say he approved of deception and self-deception?

Would you tell a young child that Santa Claus doesn’t exist? Is “Santa Claus” truly the object of their belief, or is it a more general sense of altruism, generosity, and love personified in a mythical character? By “smashing” Santa Claus for a young child who is not ready, don’t we risk also undermining or destroying their belief in altruism, generosity, and love?

The worship of idols is deception, and it is harmful, I agree. However, many (all?) of those people who worship idols do so because they desire to love God. By smashing an idol, one runs the risk of destroying or seriously undermining another’s love of God. We must each destroy our own idols, no one else can or should do it for us. The emptiness left in the wake of a forcibly destroyed idol is more likely to produce nihilistic despair than authentic love of God, in my opinion.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

If you believe Christians believe a load of rubbish you should be delighted. It means you approve of both deception and self-deception - which always turn out to be harmful and often fatal…

PumpkinCookie already touch on this, but there’s not necessarily a response of pleasure for contributing to someone loosing faith. Often times someone’s faith is part of what keeps them a part of their community. The lose of that faith can make the person an outsider to what had previously been their in-group and possibly their support structure and family. In some cases one might hide this change in disposition and in violation to their own personal integrity may lie about their disposition to avoid the anticipated response that might come from being honest. I wouldn’t infer that someone that is not convinced of the faith would necessarily take pleasure in disenchanting someone else of it.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Since the atheist rejects ALL gods equally, why would he care whether the others got equal time?

I think it’s more about allowing open discussion in some domain if a discussion is to be had. There are some that allow it. There are some that will allow it so long as the views of those expressed support some other set of approved views; those that have views otherwise are encouraged to remain silent.

What I do know is that atheists have been given their marching orders:

I think you might be assuming a command structure that’s not actually there. People express their opinions on what they think to be the best way to go about something. Others that hear those expressions (which won’t be everyone) may agree or disagree with them and act accordingly. Or, to word it differently, the above mentioned “marching order” might be better described as one of many suggestions.

But there are a lot of people who send their kids to Catholic schools who are atheists, and they do belittle the faith teachings. It seems very ironic to me, and they are just using the system because they have money and know that Catholic schools provide a much better education than free public schools.

I’ve got a friend that sent her daughter to a religious/private school (not Catholic). The mother herself was best described as apatheistic. She doesn’t believe the information that she was taught when she was a Christian but it’s also not something with which she preoccupies herself. Prior to attending the school the daughter knew that there was a religious figure named “Jesus” but didn’t know much about him. I asked the mother why she was going to send her daughter to a religious school. The answer was simple. Education is viewed as a indicator for general success later in life and the public schools in her area had awful ratings. So she started considering the private schools and all the private schools are religious. That the school also had bible study as a part of their curriculum isn’t something she promoted or opposed so long as her daughter were getting a sufficient high school education in preparation for college. It all came down to wanting what she thought that was better for her child and within reach. I think that may be a motivation for why many non-religious parents send their children to religious private schools.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I think it’s more about allowing open discussion in some domain if a discussion is to be had. There are some that allow it. There are some that will allow it so long as the views of those expressed support some other set of approved views; those that have views otherwise are encouraged to remain silent.
I think you might be assuming a command structure that’s not actually there. People express their opinions on what they think to be the best way to go about something. Others that hear those expressions (which won’t be everyone) may agree or disagree with them and act accordingly. Or, to word it differently, the above mentioned “marching order” might be better described as one of many suggestions.

I’ve got a friend that sent her daughter to a religious/private school (not Catholic). The mother herself was best described as apatheistic. She doesn’t believe the information that she was taught when she was a Christian but it’s also not something with which she preoccupies herself. Prior to attending the school the daughter knew that there was a religious figure named “Jesus” but didn’t know much about him. I asked the mother why she was going to send her daughter to a religious school. The answer was simple. Education is viewed as a indicator for general success later in life and the public schools in her area had awful ratings. So she started considering the private schools and all the private schools are religious. That the school also had bible study as a part of their curriculum isn’t something she promoted or opposed so long as her daughter were getting a sufficient high school education in preparation for college. It all came down to wanting what she thought that was better for her child and within reach. I think that may be a motivation for why many non-religious parents send their children to religious private schools.

Yes, but are they sending mixed messages to their kids? I know an atheist woman who sends her kids to Catholic school and laughs at the masses and the religious education, and as a result, her kids belittle it too. It isn’t uncommon. Probably about half the children at Catholic schools are not Catholic nor religious.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Either you can tell me what sort of trouble I am like to cause as an anti-theist…

The trouble you are causing in this forum.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Whatever it implies or forbids is irrelevant if the adherents of that principle do not follow the “teachings”. As inocente so wisely pointed out, with a “judicious” application of “quote-mining” one can find supporting verses for any kind of claim.

Not from scripture. Quote mining Scripture is the only kind of quote mining inocente despises, though he is known to use it often enough.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Instead of quoting verses out of context, please read the entire passages: Mark 9:36-41, Luke 9:44-50, Matt 12:22-37.

You will see they are all on the same subject, the driving out of demons, and that in each case the argument is between theists. In the Matthew, theists from the Pharisee movement are told by Jesus that they blaspheme against the spirit of God and cannot be forgiven. It is because they are theists that he says whoever is not with me is against me, it is because they are theists that he says every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined.

Very good. Now you have just shown yourself quote mining to prove, perhaps without your even knowing it, that the vast kingdom of Protestantism, divided as it is, will be ruined.

“Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou has sent me.” - John 17:20-21
“Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd.” (John 10:16).

“I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering, forbearing one another in love; giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one Faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all” Saint Paul (Ephesians 4:2-6).

You are chronically tempted to use the Catechism, a document you do not believe in, to defeat Catholics in this forum. Are you never going to learn that this is about as absurd a policy as you could ever follow when debating Catholics?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Yes, but are they sending mixed messages to their kids? I know an atheist woman who sends her kids to Catholic school and laughs at the masses and the religious education, and as a result, her kids belittle it too. It isn’t uncommon. Probably about half the children at Catholic schools are not Catholic nor religious.

I’d agree with your characterization of the above scenario as belittling. I’m not sure that I would use the word “mixed” for the above scenario.I get the impression the person in the scenario she sees the other education as the “meat” but the religious activities as the “bone.” This may be how she really feels. Or she may be trying to prevent her child from adopting that religion.

Just for clarity I want to say that the person that I had mentioned didn’t care one way or the other if her daughter became Christian. She says her daughter will have to figure that portion of her life out for herself.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’d agree with your characterization of the above scenario as belittling. I’m not sure that I would use the word “mixed” for the above scenario.I get the impression the person in the scenario she sees the other education as the “meat” but the religious activities as the “bone.” This may be how she really feels. Or she may be trying to prevent her child from adopting that religion.

Just for clarity I want to say that the person that I had mentioned didn’t care one way or the other if her daughter became Christian. She says her daughter will have to figure that portion of her life out for herself.

I don’t see how she could keep that quiet about her own beliefs unless she never talks to her child. Religion, or lack of is a pretty touchy subject, as you can see on this forum!

(By the way,I didn’t mean the person I know was sending mixed messages, no - her message is loud and clear! I meant someone like Bradski, since his wife is Catholic - I wonder how he talks to his child/ children.)

I think it’s ironic that people who aren’t Catholic send their kids to be educated there, since Catholic schools in America were formed because in the past there was so much prejudice against Catholics in the US school system. Yet now - everyone who is anyone wants to have their kids educated there. Ironic isn’t it?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Think about the Inquisition. Do you have any evidence that Stalin and Mao committed those atrocities BECAUSE they were atheists?

Not BECAUSE they were atheists.

BECAUSE they had no God to assure them a special place in hell was being prepared for them.