The absurdity of atheism

[Pallas_Athene]

Not BECAUSE they were atheists.

BECAUSE they had no God to assure them a special place in hell was being prepared for them.

Aha. So the Buddhists, Hindus, Jews and other assorted religions which do not accept the doctrine of “Christian hell” also commit atrocities, because they do not believe that God prepared a special place for them in hell?

I suggest you drop this “Stalin, Mao” insinuation that atheists commit atrocities because they are not afraid the supernatural retribution meted out by the “loving” God.

Better face reality, and realize that one’s religion or lack of has no predictive value about the person’s actions, be they either kind and loving, or horrible and atrocious.

 

[Bradski]

When did I mention contraception or gay marriage? It just so happens that Im not adamently opposed to either in a wide variety of circumstances

Cool…

Since the atheist rejects ALL gods equally, why would he care whether the others got equal time?

How do you decide on equal time? The number of adherents to a particular religion in your area? Or world-wide? The numbers that attend religious ceremonies on a regular basis? The Church of the FSM? Jeddai? In any case, I don’t think that religion should be promoted outside of religious institutions. I’m a big believer in the separation of church and state. I’ve got no problem with ‘Love the guy next door and don’t covet his lawn mower’ being promoted, or ‘It’s a great idea not to kill each other’, but there are people who might – no, would, take advantage of the fact that we could allow anyone’s religious beliefs to be paraded in public arenas.

There are all sorts of problems deciding in who could say what and where, so the best option is to treat them all equally and say thanks, but no thanks.

Conveniently forgetting the fact that the desire to worship as their conscience dictated was what drove people to come to this country in the first place. “Endowed by their creator” and all that.

You have that now. You’ve always had that. I support it. And I would argue against any move to remove it.

So, you think you have the right to tell me what parents can and cannot teach their children? That’s interesting. The Soviets took a similar approach.

There’s no requirement for parents to be intelligent. If someone wants to keep their kids at home and teach them something stupid, then I will, through gritted teeth, support their right so to do. But you don’t get to do it in public schools. Church and state again.

You personally? I have no way of knowing. What I do know is that atheists have been given their marching orders:

Sorry, I didn’t get the memo.

Let me ask this: How would you feel if Christine said something that caused someone to have faith?

If it was of benefit to that person, then it would be a good thing.

Okay sorry, I over-reacted. Your wife is probably Catholic and you are curious about the faith because of it.

My turn to say sorry. She is not Catholic. I thought you were making too many assumptions about me and I purposely worded what I said in a way to make you think that she could have been Catholic (and hence the reason that I sent the kids to school etc). It was meant to deceive and I apologise for that.

But there are a lot of people who send their kids to Catholic schools who are atheists, and they do belittle the faith teachings. It seems very ironic to me, and they are just using the system because they have money and know that Catholic schools provide a much better education than free public schools.

All I can say is that we I never belittled what they were taught. Indeed, religion was hardly ever (and is hardly ever) discussed at home. Not because we don’t want to – it’s just that it doesn’t form part of who we are. I don’t think that my kids knew I was an atheist until quite late in their lives.

And yes, the local Catholic churches did (and do) offer a better education than the public schools. And yes, it did cost an arm and a leg. But we didn’t hide our beliefs when we applied and they had no problem with it, so who can deny a parent desire to get the best education for their children?

Probably about half the children at Catholic schools are not Catholic nor religious.

I’d say that would be right. In fact, I think the proportion in my children’s schools would have been higher. I don’t know a single one of their peers who has expressed any interest in religion.

The trouble you are causing in this forum.

Well, I probably give you heartburn, Charles. But that would be about it.

 

[Rohzek]

Atheism is the dogmatic belief that** everything** is ultimately valueless yet that belief presupposes its own value! What is your view?

Just because one is an atheist does not therefore mean that they think there are no objective meanings or values. After all, it is a matter of elementary logic that meaning comes from the “I” or “ego” rather than from external factors. If meaning came from external factors, then it would mean that we have somehow solved the Mind-Body problem. In addition, it would put you farther off the empirical spectrum than either Hume or Locke probably. In short, your whole assertion really has nothing to do with theism or atheism. It is completely nonsensical. More importantly, I think you should consider what “meaning” is and what is its nature before coming to any sorts of conclusions regarding questions such as these.

 

[Rohzek]

Well, there’s the rub.

I don’t see how atheism can be a sincere “conviction” when there is no real evidence that God does not exist.

One may get away with saying it is a sincere “suspicion.”

But why risk the fate of one’s soul upon a sincere “suspicion”?

sarcasm WARNING: Allusion to Pascal’s Wager alert! sarcasm

Sorry, but “I have long since learned, as a measure of elementary hygiene, to be on guard when anyone quotes Pascal.” - José Ortega y Gasset

What I’ve always found absurd about atheism is that they don’t believe in a universe created by a supreme being, but they can believe that a bunch of inanimate matter formed itself into a living universe.

Can’t you say the same exact thing about God? Why isn’t the existence of God an absurdity as well since he just happened to come out of nowhere, just an an atheist just thinks that some things have simply always existed?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Cool…

My turn to say sorry. She is not Catholic. I thought you were making too many assumptions about me and I purposely worded what I said in a way to make you think that she could have been Catholic (and hence the reason that I sent the kids to school etc). It was meant to deceive and I apologise for that.

QUOTE]

Okay I rest my case - you ARE a liar! (But since you 'fessed up - I guess you can be redeemed!)

So are your children atheists now too, or did they get anything out of their religious education?

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in? Surely not in other people, or in scientists? People will always let you down, one way or another and science is certainly of no comfort. Or do atheists simply not have faith in anything at all?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

My turn to say sorry. She is not Catholic. I thought you were making too many assumptions about me and I purposely worded what I said in a way to make you think that she could have been Catholic (and hence the reason that I sent the kids to school etc). It was meant to deceive and I apologise for that.

.

Okay I rest my case - you ARE a liar! (but since you fessed up I guess you can be redeemed).

So are your children atheists now too, or did they get anything out of their religious education?

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in, if not God? Surely not other people or science, since people will always let you down in one way or another, and science is of no comfort. Or do atheists simply lack this thing called faith?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I don’t see how she could keep that quiet about her own beliefs unless she never talks to her child.

What is it that you think that she is not keeping quiet about?

Religion, or lack of is a pretty touchy subject, as you can see on this forum!

Yes, the daughter has experienced that religious classification is something for which there are strong in-group/out-group lines drawn.

I think it’s ironic that people who aren’t Catholic send their kids to be educated there

I don’t. The motivations for sending a child to a religious school don’t necessarily have to do with religion. I took a look at a publication “Survey’s in Social Research” as they had something to say on non-religious parents sending children to religious schools. It seems that sending a child to a religious school had little impact on the religion that the child went with. Specifically talking about non-religious parents unless the parent is opposed to religion I don’t see why a parent would have a problem with it. This is an area where distinguishing between someone that is only non-religious from someone that is ant-religion matters.

Also, things may be different where you live, but within some of the school systems in the Atlanta Georgia area the public schools are rated negatively. For Atlanta Public Schools it was found that the school administration was involved in cheating on standardized test for 44 out of 56 schools probled. There’s a school system in the metro-Atlanta area that lost accreditation a few years ago; it was rated as providing an education below the minimum requirements for the state of Georgia. Students graduating during that period can find themselves unable to get scholarships or admitted into other colleges. I chose a neighborhood in that area for which I’m familiar and took a look at options parents have if they were to seek a private school within a certain distance.

I found 18 private schools. 14 of them seem to be religious schools (based on the presence of Christian, Faith, or Bible in their name with 1 having the word “Catholic” in it’s name). The other 4 didn’t have religious sounding names. Assuming that that they are not religious it seems that if a parent wants to give their child the opportunity to have an education that meets minimum requirements for the state there’s a pretty good chance that the student will end up at a religious school. If the parent isn’t against religion why not consider a religious school?

since Catholic schools in America were formed because in the past there was so much prejudice against Catholics in the US school system.

Sadly the USA has a history of casting groups as “the people not to be trusted” and "not true Americans. Catholics were among the groups to receive such labels.

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in, if not God? Surely not other people or science, since people will always let you down in one way or another, and science is of no comfort.

I’ve always found this to be an ambiguous question; not every one that is using similar wording is necessarily asking about the same thing. Are you asking about strategies for coping with distressing emotions or are you asking about strategies for getting out of of difficult situations?

Or do atheists simply lack this thing called faith?

Not necessarily. Depends on which usage of “faith” you are applying. If you are referring to having a belief of God then by definition a person that is an atheist could not be said to have that type of faith. If you are refering to having a religion then a person could be without the conviction of the existence of a deity and still have a religion. Inocente pointed this out earlier.

…] Atheism is a lack of belief in deities, not the absence of religion. Religions such as Buddhism, Jainism and atheistic Hinduism find spiritual meaning without subscribing to a deity…]

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’ve always found this to be an ambiguous question; not every one that is using similar wording is necessarily asking about the same thing. Are you asking about strategies for coping with distressing emotions or are you asking about strategies for getting out of of difficult situations?

Let’s just define faith from Hebrews: “…faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Better face reality, and realize that one’s religion or lack of has no predictive value about the person’s actions, be they either kind and loving, or horrible and atrocious.

Thanks for your insight, Mother Teresa.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

sarcasm WARNING: Allusion to Pascal’s Wager alert! sarcasm

Sorry, but “I have long since learned, as a measure of elementary hygiene, to be on guard when anyone quotes Pascal.” - José Ortega y Gasset

Can’t you say the same exact thing about God? Why isn’t the existence of God an absurdity as well since he just happened to come out of nowhere, just an an atheist just thinks that some things have simply always existed?

Any atheist who thinks that some things have always existed cannot explain the Big Bang.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

Carl Sagan in Cosmos, 1980 A.D.

“Ten or twenty billion years ago, something happened – the Big Bang, the event that began our universe…. In that titanic cosmic explosion, the universe began an expansion which has never ceased…. As space stretched, the matter and energy in the universe expanded with it and rapidly cooled. The radiation of the cosmic fireball, which, then as now, filled the universe, moved through the spectrum – from gamma rays to X-rays to ultraviolet light; through the rainbow colors of the visible spectrum; into the infrared and radio regions. The remnants of that fireball, the cosmic background radiation, emanating from all parts of the sky can be detected by radio telescopes today. In the early universe, space was brilliantly illuminated.”

 

[ThinkingSapien]

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in, if not God? Surely not other people or science, since people will always let you down in one way or another, and science is of no comfort.
CHRISTINE77;13493350:

Let’s just define faith from Hebrews: “…faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

So then it sounds like you are asking what one does to get a feeling of certainty of an outcome if the person is initially or would otherwise be uncertain. The answer for that might vary by the scenario. Also note that feelings of certainty don’t necessarily translate over to the desired outcome which to me makes this question one of coping strategies.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So then it sounds like you are asking what one does to get a feeling of certainty of an outcome if the person is initially or would otherwise be uncertain. The answer for that might vary by the scenario. Also note that feelings of certainty don’t necessarily translate over to the desired outcome which to me makes this question one of coping strategies.

Actually faith is the belief in God and all that he can do for us, so I guess saying an atheist has faith is really absurd !

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Actually faith is the belief in God and …]

I guess you didn’t see where I earlier said

Depends on which usage of “faith” you are applying. If you are referring to having a belief of God then by definition a person that is an atheist could not be said to have that type of faith.

But it’s good that you have an answer to your question.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from a mobile device.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . feelings of certainty don’t necessarily translate over to the desired outcome which to me makes this question one of coping strategies.

But if faith means assurance and conviction, it is more than a feeling; it is a knowing.
You must have faith in something. How about that the sun will come up tomorrow morning?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

But if faith means assurance and conviction, it is more than a feeling; it is a knowing.

Looking at the original question of

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in, if not God?

I can’t quite put the definition that you are providing into the question that she is asking. I think you may be asking a different thing than Christine. So I’ll leave her question behind and treat your question as a new one.

You must have faith in something. How about that the sun will come up tomorrow morning?

I see both philosophers and psychologist approach knowledge as a type of belief for which one has higher confidence than some other forms of belief. I think this usage is compatible with what you’ve said/asked. If not let me know.

I’d hazard a guess that one’s confident belief that the earth will have rotated bringing the sun back above the observer’s horizon comes from having experienced it hundreds of times before. Note that someone can gain this confidence from the same experience if she either has or does not has a belief of a deity. If you were to ask a random set of people to justify their predictions that the sun would appear above the horizon each morning (whether permitting, and assuming you are not near one of the poles) from the answers received it might be hard to infer whether each person had a belief of a deity or not. Not that this has been universal. But a look at how cultures past interpreted the movements and apparent disappearance of the sun is out of scope for this question.

Consistency of an experience is one way but not the only way through which someone acquires a confident belief for something. (a different question might yield a different answer on how confidence is acquired).

You must have faith in something.

So if you are saying that there you think there are propositions that I confidently evaluate as true I’d say you are correct. But if that is what you are saying I think the usage of a word with a less varied usage than “faith” might bring more clarity to the statement.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . So if you are saying that there you think there are propositions . . .

You said a lot. I am going to focus on just this.

Faith, as I understand and use the term has nothing to do with propositions.

It emerges within the encounter with God.
One communes with God
in silence,
in the contemplation of His work, the universe, and wisdom transmitted through the prophets and saints,
in giving of oneself to another and, and
by participation in the mass and sacraments.

Giving over one’s mind to God is an ongoing process of surrender, in faith and hope.
Faith leads one to what is sure, real, obvious in an ever-deepening connection to the Truth.

Why take my word for it? It is there for you to know.

 

[Bradski]

So are your children atheists now too, or did they get anything out of their religious education?

Well I guess they have a better understanding of Catholicism. But no, they are not religious. But I’d hesitate to call them atheists. To self identify as one I think you need to go through the process of asking yourself if you believe certain things. It has to have some importance to you otherwise you wouldn’t go through that process.

I was brought up as a Christian, so I had to make a decision as to whether I believed it or not. I didn’t, therefore Bradski is an atheist. My children haven’t really felt the need to do that. They are indifferent to religion. If I asked them if they thought that any religion was true, they’d probably say no.

If you are brought up in a Christian environment (or Muslim, or Hindu etc), then it becomes important by default. If you’re not, then it really isn’t important at all.

Let me explain this way. Let’s say something happens today to cause everyone to lose their faith and forget everything about all religions. At some point, people are going to discover information about all of them. What do you think would be the result?

Personally, I believe that there would be as many atheists as there are people of faith today. And out of those with faith, the ones that believed one thing yesterday are going to end up believing something completely different.

The one thing I can’t understand about atheists is what do you people put your faith in, if not God? Surely not other people or science, since people will always let you down in one way or another, and science is of no comfort. Or do atheists simply lack this thing called faith?

The term only seems to have relevance when you talk of God. The question ‘Do you have faith’ would be immediately answered by anyone with a religion. Anyone else would say 'Faith in what?'And answer accordingly.

And in passing, do you really believe that God has always got your back, the same way as say your husband or son would? I can’t see Him being active in this world at all. There are enough threads about free will and natural evil which will argue precisely that.

Any atheist who thinks that some things have always existed cannot explain the Big Bang.

Genesis, 1000 B.C. : “Let there be light.”

How do you know God got it right the first time (without you using circular reasoning?).

You must have faith in something. How about that the sun will come up tomorrow morning?

There is a difference in having faith and having a reasonable expectation. I don’t have faith that the the guys coming to lay the carpet will be here today. I have a reasonable expectation. I don’t have faith that you will be reading this. I have a reasonable expectation.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

.

And in passing, do you really believe that God has always got your back, the same way as say your husband or son would? I can’t see Him being active in this world at all.

.

O yes, I think God is always listening and helping and guiding me. That’s why I pray so much. God can’t help you if you never have a dialog with him. You can really only trust and hope in God. With people, you can only love them.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . There is a difference in having faith and having a reasonable expectation. I don’t have faith that the the guys coming to lay the carpet will be here today. I have a reasonable expectation. I don’t have faith that you will be reading this. I have a reasonable expectation.

Faith involves relationship.
One has, or should have faith in one’s spouse.
We all have a relationship with reality, albeit for some it appears tenuous.

Your relationship with reality gives you the reasonable expectation that the sun will rise again.
If you begin to doubt, you go back to that relationship and draw on all the images of the earth revolving around the sun, etc., and you are reassured.

At the Core of reality, what is on the other side of all this stuff that exists, I know there to be God, bringing it into being.
I go back to that, His infinite love and compassion.
So if confronted by a moral choice, I know my conscience to be true.
Where I am in doubt, my faith carries me forward to find the good.
Under unclear circumstances, I have the reasonable expectation that the church will be correct as it was in countless other matters.

 

[tonyrey]

sarcasm WARNING: Allusion to Pascal’s Wager alert! sarcasm

Sorry, but “I have long since learned, as a measure of elementary hygiene, to be on guard when anyone quotes Pascal.” - José Ortega y Gasset

Can’t you say the same exact thing about God? Why isn’t the existence of God an absurdity as well since he just happened to come out of nowhere, just an an atheist just thinks that some things have simply always existed?

The very fact the atheist is using reason to deny the power of reason is a sign of incoherence and inconsistency. If reason is the product of unreasoning molecules it is worthless. It is like believing the ladder we climbed to look at the landscape doesn’t exist. We only imagine we have climbed a ladder! We are really where we started: in a state of total ignorance. Yet something is rotten in that state of affairs. How do we know we know nothing? Even if we only believe we know nothing our belief is worthless. Ladders don’t just exist - by chance…