The absurdity of atheism

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The point is that though the perception is real, the object itself might not be real. Hence, believing that the object is real is arbitrary and cannot be justified in the absolute sense, since there is no such thing as induction.
Hold onto that thought…
Oh but it is very much so. **One might feel a divine presence, but it could just be an illusion. **Belief is a very arbitrary thing.
AND that one…
Uhhhhhh…are you trying to question the basic principles of human rights or are you trying to question atheism? Because it seems like you are drifting towards the former. The rational basis for liberty, etc. is human creativity, as I said in a previous post. These don’t have anything to do necessarily with atheism. Vast swaths of theists and atheists in the first world do believe in fundamental natural rights, which come directly from Enlightenment philosophy.
The “basic principles of human rights” could – as you insist above – just be an illusion since EVERYTHING could be an illuson. So, it is not me who am trying to “question the basic principles of human rights,” it is you, by your inability to consent to properly basic experiences who are putting all of reality into jeopardy, including basic human rights.

The rational basis for justice, by the way, is the logical principle of treat like things alike in the respects which they are alike.

And the basic principles of human rights derive from the nature of humanity, human moral agency, the teleological nature of existence and the fact that the ground of all Being values humans and endows us with rights to pursue that which is intrinsically good for us.

Absent those, rights are determinably not basic nor warranted precisely because they are illusory unless God exists to underwrite them as the ultimate ground of Being.
 
The “basic principles of human rights” could – as you insist above – just be an illusion since EVERYTHING could be an illuson. So, it is not me who am trying to “question the basic principles of human rights,” it is you, by your inability to consent to properly basic experiences who are putting all of reality into jeopardy, including basic human rights.

The rational basis for justice, by the way, is the logical principle of treat like things alike in the respects which they are alike.

And the basic principles of human rights derive from the nature of humanity, human moral agency, the teleological nature of existence and the fact that the ground of all Being values humans and endows us with rights to pursue that which is intrinsically good for us.

Absent those, rights are determinably not basic nor warranted precisely because they are illusory unless God exists to underwrite them as the ultimate ground of Being.
You’re mistaking me for an extreme skeptic. I personally believe that the objects that I touch exist. However, I was merely trying to make the point that such a belief is just as arbitrary as believing in God. Carnap would have much to say about the abuse of his precious theory of verificationism in the name of the so-called “fact-based” faith.

Have you ever read Rousseau’s Discourse on the Origin of Inequality? In it he details one of the big things that sets mankind apart is its language capacity and its ability to give meaning. It’s a fairly Cartesian understanding of the difference between humans and animals: we have minds and animals don’t. Hence, we have free will and creativity and animals don’t since they are robots/machines. Setting that aside, even if animals have minds, the fact remains that we display much more creativity than any animal does. Rousseau gives some deep insights into this basic human nature. First, humans are not so much guided by instinct as in that they have a will which involves creativity. Second, and therefore, since this trait is the fundamental human nature that is most obvious, it stands to reason that any social arrangement or other-individual action that impedes this creativity must therefore be justified. This still leaves us with not a complete moral compass, I’d admit, but it gives a pretty good basic framework with how to conduct oneself in family-life, political affairs etc.

Censoring a newspaper is an effort to control thought, which attacks the heart of creativity: the mind. Thus it can hardly ever, if ever, be justified. However, slapping your son’s hand as he attempts to touch a hot iron can be justified. Although you slapped his hand and thus thwarted his personal exploration of the world in his own creative enterprise, you saved his hand from great harm. He will thus probably live to create another day for all the better.

God is not necessary for this basic argument in the least bit.

And as for whether or not your own 1st person human rights exist, well the answer is yes. Your own creativity is immediately accessible to introspection. It is not necessarily dependent upon outside empirical factors. So your attempted argument makes no sense here.
 
It seems to me that God has a completely incomprehensible view of what the “pinnacle” of creation entails…
You know what God’s viewpoint is? Probably not. But I do know what mankind has a tendency to do. I have a good idea what our viewpoint is. Generally speaking. And that is that we consider ourselves, at any given point, the pinnacle.

To use an evolutionary analogy, we generally consider ourselves to be at the top of the ladder as opposed to a tip of a branch.

Are a top sort of guy or a tip?
 
You know what God’s viewpoint is? Probably not. . .
We have scripture and a whole group of guys that spent their lives in that pursuit. We pray, contemplate those words, go to mass, participate in the sacraments, eat what we believe to be the actual body and blood of Jesus Christ, and we do good works for others. All this transforms a person, deepening their relationship with God. It is within that relationship, which involves doing all the above, that we come to know Him.

Even if one does not do all this, one cannot but have heard about the Ten Commandments and verses like “Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,” So yup, in this regard, and others imho, Pete knows God’s viewpoint on the matter.

You don’t even believe in God, and the question would be like asking if he knew how unicorns see the world. You answer “probably not” to yourself. He does know, and he stated the message very clearly.
 
You know what God’s viewpoint is? Probably not. But I do know what mankind has a tendency to do. I have a good idea what our viewpoint is. Generally speaking. And that is that we consider ourselves, at any given point, the pinnacle.

To use an evolutionary analogy, we generally consider ourselves to be at the top of the ladder as opposed to a tip of a branch.

Are a top sort of guy or a tip?
Oh, well now you are deflecting. You didn’t answer my post. You want to insist you know what the pinnacle entails, but you don’t know. You are going by human assessment and ambition. God showed us his viewpoint by hanging on the cross. That is historical and available in the New Testament. What we “generally consider” about ourselves and about God are neither here nor there. What is it that God “considers?” is the important question.

This “pinnacle of creation” problem is your problem and you like to hold it close because it justifies your point of view. And you think it justifies dismissing all others merely because it is “generally considered.” That, unfortunately, is not sufficient to make it true. Jesus called himself the stumbling block, the cornerstone rejected by the builders. What edifice are you building upon which to place your own pinnacle? Careful about the architecture and the materials! Oh, and be particularly careful about the viewpoint you will end up with at the end. Recall the tower at Babel that tried to reach to the heavens. What, again, did you say was the viewpoint that ought to be “generally considered?” That pinnacles necessarily reach the heights above everything surrounding them?

Recall, also, where Satan led Jesus while trying to tempt him - the pinnacle of the Temple, wasn’t it? Are you sure we can’t get even an inkling of God’s viewpoint? Didn’t Calvary have a view of the surrounds? I think it did. Which proves my fusion point.

Of course, you are sure because it allows you to see from your chosen perspective your own “pinnacle” from which you can decide about men… about God … and about what to reject… even which corner stones just won’t be foundational. :hmmm:
 
The question remains as to the rational basis of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. Expediency?
The only rational basis of the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity is the teaching of Jesus that we are all children of the same Father in heaven. If there is no reason why we exist we are related solely by an accident of birth which doesn’t explain why we should be equal or have free will without which freedom is an illusion.
 
Of course, you are sure because it allows you to see from your chosen perspective your own “pinnacle” from which you can decide about men… about God … and about what to reject… even which corner stones just won’t be foundational. :hmmm:
No, I just consider myself one of the tips. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a Christian you have to consider yourself the top. That’s how you believe God has structured things.

We are here because the conditions were in our favour. You think the conditions were organised on our behalf. We are just exceptionally lucky. You think we are special. The universe has no particular purpose as far as we are concerned. But you think it was made for us. Even the bits we can’t see and can never access (doesn’t that make you scratch your head and ponder?).

People used to think it was the world, which was incredibly tiny and parochial back in the day, and us. And a few animals which were so few that Adam named them all. And that the world was the centre of everything. Just a few lights in the sky to differentiate day from night.

Then, oh, we are not the centre of everything. And those are other planets? And stars? And we are tucked into the corner of an average galaxy? And there are countless others? And that’s just the observable universe?

Hmm. Maybe not so special. But that doesn’t remove the need to think that we are.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a Christian you have to consider yourself the top. That’s how you believe God has structured things.
Excuse me (for butting in), but could you clarify this claim? “Consider yourself the top” of what, exactly? In which way? (for example, the top when compared to other animals, or when compared to other people? “The top” as in importance in God’s eyes?)
 
No, I just consider myself one of the tips. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a Christian you have to consider yourself the top. That’s how you believe God has structured things.

We are here because the conditions were in our favour. You think the conditions were organised on our behalf. We are just exceptionally lucky. You think we are special. The universe has no particular purpose as far as we are concerned. But you think it was made for us. Even the bits we can’t see and can never access (doesn’t that make you scratch your head and ponder?).

People used to think it was the world, which was incredibly tiny and parochial back in the day, and us. And a few animals which were so few that Adam named them all. And that the world was the centre of everything. Just a few lights in the sky to differentiate day from night.

Then, oh, we are not the centre of everything. And those are other planets? And stars? And we are tucked into the corner of an average galaxy? And there are countless others? And that’s just the observable universe?

Hmm. Maybe not so special. But that doesn’t remove the need to think that we are.
Size, quantity, position or any other physical attribute has nothing to do with value or significance. Why should it?
 
Excuse me (for butting in), but could you clarify this claim? “Consider yourself the top” of what, exactly? In which way? (for example, the top when compared to other animals, or when compared to other people? “The top” as in importance in God’s eyes?)
Please feel free to butt in any time, Novus.

Re-read Genesis 1:26 onwards. Made in God’s image to have dominion over literally everything. It just happens that people then didn’t know what everything entailed.

Why do you think that Darwin’s theory upset so many people? It was because Christians thought of themselves as separate from nature. Not animals, for heaven’s sake. As Wilberforce was supposed to have said to Huxley: ‘Is it from your grandmother or grandfather’s side that you claim descent from apes’.

No-one wanted to consider that we were simply a fortuitous accident of evolution. They wanted to believe that we were special. Darwin proved that we aren’t.

If you asked the President of the U.S. If he thought he was special, I think that he would say no. That there just happened to have been a fortuitous set of circumstances that led him to become the president. That he is no more special than anyone else. Primer inter pares (although a term most commonly used to refer to the Cheif Justice, but you get my meaning).

That’s not a bad way to describe us.
 
Size, quantity, position or any other physical attribute has nothing to do with value or significance. Why should it?
Rhodium is quite useful yet exteremly rare and therefore its value is very high.

If you are in a war and there’s only 5 people on each side, not losing one becomes vitally important. If there’s a million on each side, then one man is quite expendable.

Killing sheep for food is no problem - there are millions of them. Killing a white rhino for food would be criminal.

A large diamond is worth a lot more than a small one, all other characteristics being equal.

Mining nearby planets will eventually solve almost all energy problems and is therefore a valuable excercise. Mining planets around others stars…well, bit too far, really.

Do you want me to go on…?
 
Not sure what you mean here?

Is there a specific Church teaching you’re referencing?
Having dominion. Not an accident of nature. Especially formed. Not a fortuitous twig on the tree of evolution. Top of the ladder. The only creatures with a soul. Nothing else allowed into heaven. Made in the image of God.
 
Having dominion. Not an accident of nature. Especially formed. Not a fortuitous twig on the tree of evolution. Top of the ladder. The only creatures with a soul. Nothing else allowed into heaven. Made in the image of God.
Where is the Church teaching that states we’re “separate from nature”?

If we are “separate from nature”, then what are we? We’re not divine, clearly.
 
Where is the Church teaching that states we’re “separate from nature”?

If we are “separate from nature”, then what are we? We’re not divine, clearly.
I’m talking general Christian beliefs. That we are not part of the natural and meaningless process of evolution and in that sense, separate from it.
 
I’m talking general Christian beliefs. That we are not part of the natural and meaningless process of evolution and in that sense, separate from it.
With all due respect, Bradski, I think you are remembering your 6th grade religion class incorrectly.

As it turns out, more and more, as you profess things that Christians apparently believe, it appears that you are rejecting something that doesn’t even exist.

I reject the Christianity that you seem to be presenting, just like you reject it.
 
In a few generations no-one will remember Tony or myself. Life will drift on as if we never existed. Atheists have no problem with this fact, but it seems to frustrate Christians no end.
That’s because atheists don’t think about it, or try not to. This is why atheism only tends to work well among young, healthy, wealthy people who live in a free country at a time of peace. Take away any of those things and life becomes a lot harder to cope with. Unless you’re religious… somehow the belief in a perfectly just God and an afterlife tends to give people hope that they wouldn’t otherwise have. In the meantime many western atheists are spending their lives bingewatching netflix and browsing the web in order to distract themselves of how short life is and how it will all be over soon.

About five months ago I attended a funeral of a woman who died of cancer at the age of 31. I recall that she was a Catholic and on her deathbed she had no fear of death. She was very joyful and had every confidence that she would be in heaven. In fact the second to last thing that she said as she was dying was that she could see the Virgin Mary.
I have decided that even if atheism and materialism were true, I would rather be religious, because to be honest religious people come out ahead in the end. If atheism is true, then yes the atheist knows the truth, but what good does it do them? I’d rather die a fool with hope than live a wise man with none.
 
With all due respect, Bradski, I think you are remembering your 6th grade religion class incorrectly.

As it turns out, more and more, as you profess things that Christians apparently believe, it appears that you are rejecting something that doesn’t even exist.

I reject the Christianity that you seem to be presenting, just like you reject it.
So you don’t think that we’re an accident of natural processes?

About half of Americans think we’re here because we were especially created a few thousand years ago. You can’t really say that Christians don’t believe that.
 
I’d rather die a fool with hope than live a wise man with none.
Don’t say anything, Bradski. You’ll get into trouble with the mods. Just keep quiet and go browse Netflix or something equally fatuous.
 
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