The absurdity of atheism

[PRmerger]

Surely there is no silence. Everything is God’s will. Surely He makes Himself known in every situation.

Yes, you are correct.

You cannot ask for God to step in and cure your child from cancer because, as you say, you have no insider knowledge.

This is a nonsequitur.

Of course we can ask for God to step in and cure your child from cancer.

God gives us what Blaise Pascal calls the Dignity of Causality.
"It is not really stranger, nor less strange, that my prayers should affect the course of events than that my other actions should do so. "

God has given the human person the actual ability to CAUSE events through our prayers.

What an immense privilege and act of love that is, no?

 

[Bradski]

Well, now you have fallen off on the other side of the fence.

Understanding the middle or “balanced” position is what is required in a spiritual sense.

It is NOT that the prayer should ALWAYS be: ‘If she is to die, please help me cope with the loss.’

The prayer SHOULD always be, “Your will, not mine, be done. (Luke 22:42) Help me to love with your love and come closer to you in whatever your will determines for those who strive to love as they should.”

You just repeated what I said except in a King James-type style.

There is no middle road here. Prayers are never answered simply because it is something you want. God doesn’t give you what you want. God gives you what is needed. And if that is the death of your child, then so be it.

Any prayers made in order to change what needs to happen, which is the same as saying what God wills, are a waste of time. They will not be answered. The prayers for ‘my sick child’ or ‘my mother with cancer’ or ‘an aunt in pain’ will not be granted. It’s simply that what you personally want is something thatbwasngoing to happen in any case.

Don’t you agree that it is completely nonsensical for someone to claim that their personal prayer had been answered? That whatever outcome that person desired was God’s will in any case. The outcome was, is and will always be for the greater good, despite what you personally want.

Don’t you agree that there are no untimely deaths or unfortunate illnesses? That we are not in a position to fathom the reasons for death and misery. That everything is for the greater good? How could it not be so?

 

[PRmerger]

I think that it is undeniable that you are never given anything simply because you want it. If you are granted any prayer it is simply because God was going to act that way in any case.

No wonder you left your faith. You were so sadly misinformed about what it teaches. I would have left that faith as well!

 

[Bradski]

God has given the human person the actual ability to CAUSE events through our prayers.

But you can’t have it both ways.

If the child is cured, then it is God’s will. For whatever reason. We are not in a position to understand that reason.

If the child dies, then again it is God’s will. For whatever reason. We are not in a position to understand that reason.

Your personal preference counts for nothing unless it aligns with God’s will.

 

[PRmerger]

But you can’t have it both ways.

Of course we can.

It’s the formidable Catholic Both/And here again. That’s what makes Catholicism so deliciously reasonable and difficult to refute.

You, just like so many fundamentalists, always seem to appeal to ONLYs when none are required.

Just like the fundamentalist Bible ONLY folks.
Or the Faith ONLY folks.
Or the King James Version of the Bible ONLY folks.
Or the Science ONLY folks.
Or the English ONLY folks.
Or the Jesus is Man ONLY folks.
Or the Jesus is God ONLY folks.

Catholics say, sure, the Bible is the Word of God.
Catholics say, sure, Faith is important.
Catholics say, sure the King James Version is version of the Bible we can read.
Catholics say, sure, Science is a great way to think about our world.
Catholics say, sure, English is a great way to speak in our country.
Catholic say, sure, Jesus was a Man.
Catholics say, sure, Jesus was God.

We just don’t say ONLY to any of those things.

There’s no reason for fundamentalism here, luv.

 

[PRmerger]

But you can’t have it both ways.

If the child is cured, then it is God’s will. For whatever reason. We are not in a position to understand that reason.

If the child dies, then again it is God’s will. For whatever reason. We are not in a position to understand that reason.

Your personal preference counts for nothing unless it aligns with God’s will.

Read this, thoughtfully, critically, and with an open mind, and tell me if it doesn’t make sense:

“If it is foolish and impudent to ask for victory in a war (on the ground that God might be expected to know best), it would be equally foolish and impudent to put on a mackintosh - does not God know best whether you ought to be wet or dry? The two methods by which we are allowed to produce events may be called work and prayer. Both are alike in this respect – that in both we try to produce a state of affairs which God has not (or at any rate not yet) seen fit to provide ‘on HIS own’. And from this point of view the old maxim laborare est orare (work is prayer) takes on a new meaning. “What we do when we weed a field is not quite different from what we do when we pray for a good harvest.”--CS Lewis

 

[zyzz]

Both “omniscience” and “omnipotence” are quite well-defined categories

They are not. But you are welcome to provide a strict, precise definition for them.

I’ve already conceded God is not the genie from the Arabian Nights story.

Even though this is EXACTLY what he promised in the Bible. Of course the Bible does not count… It is just a collection of stories… or is it?

I wouldn’t, therefore, suppose that a few hundred or a few thousand “faithful” Christians praying will necessarily make a difference with respect to what is being asked or whether God can be cajoled according to your “method.”

If that is the case, why do you (or anyone else) ASK for anything at all? But, of course that is EXACTLY what the prayers are all about. They are actual requests with the “hope” that these requests will be fulfilled. “Ask and you will be answered”. “Knock and the door will be opened”.

That would all depend, NOT upon the contrived nature of the “experiment” – which God would, for that very reason, have every cause to ignore the pretense of coaxing and flattery, but on far more significant criteria.

So we can conclude that the “milk bottle” is just as likely to grant the prayers as God would.

 

[Bradski]

If you have a sick child, then whether she lives or dies has reasons beyond which we can fathom. How many times have I been told this? The Amelakites were massacred because…well, we don’t know. We cannot know. We are are not omniscient. There was obviously a reason and only God knows it. All we can say is that it was for the greater good.

In that case, prayers for those about to be killed would have been worthless. Because there was a reason that they should either live or die. Prayers would not have been answered. Because those prayers would not have aligned with God’s will.

It was God’s will that determined the outcome then. And God’s will that always determines it. That is not an argument with which you are in a position to argue against. Because if you were to argue against it, then you would be saying that you personally, via a request to God to act on your behalf, can change what God does.

That if there is a sick child, then God hasn’t made His mind up if that child lives or dies until He has considered the prayers offered. The child’s death is an unknown factor in the grand scheme of things. That God doesn’t know what will happen.

That is a nonsensical position to hold. The child will live if it is for the greater good. She will die (as did the Amelikite children) if it is for the greater good. God cannot answer a prayer if the outcome is not for the greater good. He cannot answer a prayer that will result in anything but the greater good. If you prayers do not align with that greater good, and you are not in a position to know what that is, then they will not be answered.

 

[Bradski]

Read this, thoughtfully, critically, and with an open mind, and tell me if it doesn’t make sense:

…we try to produce a state of affairs which God has not (or at any rate not yet) seen fit to provide ‘on HIS own’.

That makes zero sense. That God is undecided what any given outcome will be. That you could ask God what will happen and His answer is likely to be: ‘Hmmm, not sure yet. Let’s see how things pan out’.

What on earth…?

 

[PRmerger]

…we try to produce a state of affairs which God has not (or at any rate not yet) seen fit to provide ‘on HIS own’.

That makes zero sense. That God is undecided what any given outcome will be. That you could ask God what will happen and His answer is likely to be: ‘Hmmm, not sure yet. Let’s see how things pan out’.

What on earth…?

There is nothing in that quote about God being UNDECIDED.

What it is saying is that God has not, for example, given you turnips to put on your plate. You actually have to grow them (or buy them), and then cook them and mash them and add salt and butter.

You could say, “Why doesn’t God just speak His Word, and, voila, mashed turnips appear on my plate?”

But no one asks that question.
(At least, no one who’s mentally sound).

We all understand that we have to WORK to get those mashed turnips on our plate.

It’s the same thing with prayer.

That’s all.

Not that difficult a concept to embrace.

Please read Lewis’ quote again, thoughtfully, and with an open mind.

It’s immensely powerful and profound.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

No, I don’t have reasonable doubts. But I wish to learn about your thought processes, which I find fascinating. As a side benefit, it would be nice if you could present actual evidence for your beliefs, but it did not happen so far. The only argument you presented is that “intuitively” many people believed in an afterlife.

Now that you have learned about our thought processes, what is your conclusion?

I think it is the same conclusion you had drawn before you got here.

Namely, you are looking for a God who can be touched, smelled, heard, etc.

But you knew before you got here we were not going to offer you that kind of a god.

You have been offered the One we consider to be the true God, who can only be known by a mutual search of the mind and of the heart.

This you seem unable unable or refuse to do since you keep asking for the other god that we don’t even believe exists.

So I’d say there is not much more to be said! .

Except, perhaps, that you are not here because you want to know how we think, but rather because you are full of doubts about your own conviction of certainty beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Bradski]

Let’s take this step by step. Feel free to disagree where this sequence of statements breaks down.

1. God is not surprised by anything that happens. It can be said that He knows everything that will happen. The very definition of omniscient.
2. God sustains existence itself.
3. Everything that happens is therefore God’s will. That is, nothing happens that is NOT God’s will. Or to put it another way, nothing happens that God did not want to happen.
4. If a child lives or dies, it is God’s will. The outcome will be for the greater good, which is God’s will.
5. If the child lives, then it will be for the greater good. It will always have been for the greater good, so prayers will have had no effect on the outcome.
6. If the child dies, then again it will be for the greater good. Prayers for the child are actually asking for something that is not the greater good. That is, asking for something that is not God’s will. They will not be answered.

The end result is that prayers have no effect on the outcome. They are requests to God for something that you personally want as a good outcome. Yet you have no idea what that outcome should be.

Your prayer should be for God to do whatever is right, even if that means your child should die. Let’s face it, it’s not your call, is it…

 

[Aloysium]

Let’s take this step by step. Feel free to disagree where this sequence of statements breaks down.

1. God is not surprised by anything that happens. It can be said that He knows everything that will happen. The very definition of omniscient.
2. God sustains existence itself.
3. Everything that happens is therefore God’s will. That is, nothing happens that is NOT God’s will. Or to put it another way, nothing happens that God did not want to happen.
4. If a child lives or dies, it is God’s will. The outcome will be for the greater good, which is God’s will.
5. If the child lives, then it will be for the greater good. It will always have been for the greater good, so prayers will have had no effect on the outcome.
6. If the child dies, then again it will be for the greater good. Prayers for the child are actually asking for something that is not the greater good. That is, asking for something that is not God’s will. They will not be answered.

The end result is that prayers have no effect on the outcome. They are requests to God for something that you personally want as a good outcome. Yet you have no idea what that outcome should be.

Your prayer should be for God to do whatever is right, even if that means your child should die. Let’s face it, it’s not your call, is it…

I think God is surprised by what we do. Pope Francis at a Holocaust memorial said He is horrified. We have free will. We do what we do in the present and He is in each present moment, with us as our Father. When you are surprised, you are surprised in the present. God is One, present in all moments and beyond.

While everything is in accordance with His will, it is also His will that you come to Him. You have the choice to do so or refuse. He has granted you that capacity, which a rock does not possess.

I have no idea what you mean by the greater good. We all will die. You do not like this reality or you would not be arguing that it is a bad thing. Although we die in this world as a result of our original sin, through Christ we are able to gain eternal happiness.

When we pray we converse with God. This can take the form of a supplication as we see when Jesus prayed in the Garden before His death. But, it is always about God’s will be done. Prayer also serves to express our feelings, our thanks, our anger, our sadness, even our emptiness.

It is never “our call”; what are you talking about? But this does not mean we would not pray for our child’s recovery. The fact is we cannot know how many times such prayers are answered because it can always be explained away as having had happened regardless. We can’t know except through faith.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Let’s take this step by step. Feel free to disagree where this sequence of statements breaks down.

1. God is not surprised by anything that happens. It can be said that He knows everything that will happen. The very definition of omniscient.
2. God sustains existence itself.
3. Everything that happens is therefore God’s will. That is, nothing happens that is NOT God’s will. Or to put it another way, nothing happens that God did not want to happen.
4. If a child lives or dies, it is God’s will. The outcome will be for the greater good, which is God’s will.
5. If the child lives, then it will be for the greater good. It will always have been for the greater good, so prayers will have had no effect on the outcome.
6. If the child dies, then again it will be for the greater good. Prayers for the child are actually asking for something that is not the greater good. That is, asking for something that is not God’s will. They will not be answered.

The end result is that prayers have no effect on the outcome. They are requests to God for something that you personally want as a good outcome. Yet you have no idea what that outcome should be.

Your prayer should be for God to do whatever is right, even if that means your child should die. Let’s face it, it’s not your call, is it…

Your assumption is that praying for someone like a child makes absolutely no difference to the one doing the praying. I submit that at least one of the real benefits of prayer is the exercise of virtue in the one doing the praying.

Why do anything if it substantively makes no difference to who or what you are as the agent?
Why exercise, for example? To gain muscle strength and tone, cardiovascular benefits, improve stamina, etc. The benefits to the agent then become benefits for those around the agent. Being healthy is not merely a “good” for the agent, but for everyone in the family or community of the agent.

I would suggest that prayer is a spiritual activity akin to physical exercise – it focuses the mind, will and body on proper priorities so that we are better equipped to handle the vagaries of life. Was it ever intended to be a “break glass in case of emergency” kind of last resort? I don’t suppose it was. Which is precisely why those who do not pray radically confuse its real purpose with how it might be used “in the case of an emergency.”

And the reason your #5 just misses the point of prayer entirely.

 

[Bradski]

I think God is surprised by what we do.

You want your cake and eat it, Aloysium. God is either omniscient or He is not. He cannot be omniscient about some things and then not about others. It doesn’t work like that.

To be surprised is to be unaware of what is about to happen. You are saying that God is omniscient but does not know what is going to happen. That makes zero sense. None whatsoever. It is a nonsensical proposition. God does not say: ‘Gosh, I didn’t think that would happen. That came as a surprise!’

If a child is sick, then He knows what the outcome will be. Prayers will not change that.

 

[Aloysium]

This song and dance has been repeated often enough, but let’s give it another try.

Simply put your problem comes back to the fact that to know God, one must know Him.

Let’s take for example when God speaks to Cain warning Him that if he follows his current course, he will murder his brother.
It is Cain’s decision, which can go in either direction. We can say in human terms that God was disappointed at the choice. It was Cain’s decision.
From His eternal vision He knows what Cain decides; this does not preclude the intervention, nor surprise at the decision.

At the foundations of the earth the Son of God was sacrificed in time to redeem and save us.
Having created us and being everpresent, God knew us all and what we would choose.
I believe that knowing everything about you and I, it is still a surprise why we would choose not to love and alternatively just how holy we can be. We truly make choices.

In terms of a sick child and the parents’ prayers, they are part of the reality which God knows. That reality would include God’s response to their supplications.

 

[Peter_Plato]

You want your cake and eat it, Aloysium. God is either omniscient or He is not. He cannot be omniscient about some things and then not about others. It doesn’t work like that.

I am unclear how you would know for certain how it is supposed to work or not work.

God is omniscient, but human beings are autonomous agents. We are able to initiate novel sequences.

To be surprised is to be unaware of what is about to happen. You are saying that God is omniscient but does not know what is going to happen. That makes zero sense. None whatsoever. It is a nonsensical proposition. God does not say: ‘Gosh, I didn’t think that would happen. That came as a surprise!’

God is eternal. There are no past and no future events with God. Everything is present to him. But at the same time, we are autonomous agents and everyone of our thoughts, choices and actions makes a difference. He responds to us. He does not determine on our behalf, we are response-able even if God knows what we do in time.

If a child is sick, then He knows what the outcome will be. Prayers will not change that.

Prayers by those praying may change them as agents in a way that sufficiently makes a difference to the overall determination by God and the final outcome. The child is not the only one with a stake in the outcome, therefore the action and initiative of those around the child and the child him/herself may make a substantive change to each affected person as individual agents, thus making a difference to the outcome considered by God. The future is plotted by each decision in the moment and can be changed by each momentary decision.

We are not static beings, we are dynamic and there is nothing that precludes God from responding to what we make of ourselves every second in time. The “best” outcome may be altered by the actions of some or all of the agents in proximity to the outcome. Do you suppose those who are affected make no difference to God? Or that they make no difference with respect to what God will do? That God will simply do what he does no matter how any human agent acts or is affected by what he does?

I don’t think so. Our free actions, our choices, make a huge difference with regard to who we become each second of time, thus our actions and choices will alter what actions God determines in response to what we do or make of ourselves every second in time.

We are not dead, inorganic lumps that God merely acts upon. The relationship and influences are dynamic. What we do, think, and choose makes a difference in terms of how God will respond and he takes all of these in consideration in his moral calculus with regard to what the “best” outcome will be. The future “best” is determined, at least in part, by each present moment, which is why everything we do, think or choose makes a difference to the future outcome. God’s calculus includes our (name removed by moderator)ut right up until the instant that any event or act is “finalized” in time.

 

[zyzz]

Now that you have learned about our thought processes, what is your conclusion?

I don’t think that all is done. I hope that there is more to learn. But a few preliminary conclusions can be made. Based upon your current post, of course. Let’s see.

I think it is the same conclusion you had drawn before you got here.

You offer unwarranted conclusion. You simply cannot know what I was thinking before, or what I am thinking now.

Namely, you are looking for a God who can be touched, smelled, heard, etc.

That would be nice, and God - if he so chose COULD manifest himself in such a manner. But I did not make it a requirement. On the very contrary, I said that ANY kind of evidence would be acceptable, as long as I am able to verify it. That does not require physical evidence.

But you knew before you got here we were not going to offer you that kind of a god.

Another unwarranted conclusion. How would I know what you will offer?

You have been offered the One we consider to be the true God, who can only be known by a mutual search of the mind and of the heart.

But you never offered the proper epistemological method of HOW to find that God? And what does the “heart” have to do with anything? I repeat, I did not limit you to any specific epistemological method. The only requirement was that the result should be verifiable by me.

Except, perhaps, that you are not here because you want to know how we think, but rather because you are full of doubts about your own conviction of certainty beyond a reasonable doubt.

And you finish up with YET another unwarranted conclusion. Moreover with one, which I explicitly denied before. Not particularly “charitable”. I am either a liar about my doubts (or lack or them) or a drooling idiot, who does not even what he doubts.

---

I am quite curious about the epistemological process you can offer for non-believers. You are supposed to spread the “good news”, you are supposed to evangelize the heathens. To do that you need to speak our language. Talking about the “heart” is not helpful, since we have no idea what that (overused) analogy means. The only method you offered was “intuition”. I pointed out that “intuition” is not enough, even though it is a very good and important first step.

I also learned that the apologists I talked to (and I am NOT going to generalize!) are not up to the task. Moreover, they all like to move the goalposts, play hide and seek. Not particularly promising for the future, but I am still mildly optimistic.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

You want your cake and eat it, Aloysium. God is either omniscient or He is not. He cannot be omniscient about some things and then not about others. It doesn’t work like that.

To be surprised is to be unaware of what is about to happen. You are saying that God is omniscient but does not know what is going to happen. That makes zero sense. None whatsoever. It is a nonsensical proposition. God does not say: ‘Gosh, I didn’t think that would happen. That came as a surprise!’

If a child is sick, then He knows what the outcome will be. Prayers will not change that.

Irrefutable!

Though many Christians will deny this conclusion, many Muslims and Jews will agree that God’s omniscience and will are limitless and absolute.

The problem is that this causes us to doubt God’s goodness. This is the problem of Job. I will freely admit that I don’t know what “God is good” means, but I believe it as far as I am able. We pray that a child will be cured of cancer, and yet she dies anyway. Reason requires us to affirm it is God’s will. And yet, this seems cruel and evil to us. How can this be for the “greater good?” I believe there is only silence in answer to this question. Every rationalization, every posited answer only makes it more cruel and more evil. We just don’t know. I think maybe we aren’t able to know.

Second point: though God is omniscient and omnipotent, this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pray at all, or that prayer is totally pointless. We’re not going to “change God’s mind” or change the inevitable future, but the practice of prayer allows us to try to get “in tune” with God. Also, God has always known what we will pray for, so in some sense you could say that God’s will co-operates with our prayers. We don’t know how our prayers will be answered, but it is good for us to pray, in my opinion. Most of my prayer is gratitude and asking for forgiveness. I don’t pray for specific outcomes because I feel ridiculous telling God all about what is best for others or for me. I pray for “blessing” and leave it open ended, how should I know what is best?

*I do not believe the Torah requires non-Jews to pray, but I’m not an expert.
**I do not accept the NT so the whole “ask and it shall be given, etc…” doesn’t apply, in my opinion.

 

[PRmerger]

Irrefutable!

Though many Christians will deny this conclusion, many Muslims and Jews will agree that God’s omniscience and will are limitless and absolute.

The problem is that this causes us to doubt God’s goodness.

Well, this is like a 5 yr old child doubting his father’s goodness because the father lets her get stabbed with 5 instruments of torture at the pediatrician’s office.

We can all see, from our elevated POV, that the father IS being good.

Just because the child can’t see it doesn’t make it so, right?