The absurdity of atheism

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I should have changed the word atheist as well for it to make sense. Should have read:

Nothing like a person who declare their “X” at the age of nine or ten and then proceed to give the same arguments that convinced them at that age to “demonstrate” their X for the rest of their lives. A person would wonder what evidence it was, precisely, that had such an effect on them at that young an age and whether they were even competent with regard to being “open-minded” at the time.
I’d like to go back to this if I may.

Theology, philosophy, politics, natural law. The Meaning Of Life! Would anyone like to put a lower limit on the age at which a person is able to have the ability to make definitive decisions about any aspect of these things?

You’d hardly call a three year old child a Platonist or a Replublican or a Hindu. Well, lots of people refer to Hindu children, but isn’t that as ridiculous as a Republican toddler?

I don’t see much of a problem teaching your own children aspects of life with which you personally prescribe. We all do it. But at what age is it valid to call that child a Republican, or a Platonist, or a Hindu. Or…what was the other belief I was thinking of?

There have been enough arguments saying one needs a world view to come to these sorts of decisions. An ability to think without bias (but at the same time, it seems, to embrace the concept that you are trying to decipher).

Personally speaking, after a reasonable amount of time spent on this planet, with an ability to string a coherent sentence together and construct an argument of sorts and listen to other views without resorting to violence, I sincerely doubt (and I mean I REALLY seriously doubt) that there are many people who ever reach that age.

Myself included.

I’ll let you know when I get there.
 
I’d like to go back to this if I may.

Theology, philosophy, politics, natural law. The Meaning Of Life! Would anyone like to put a lower limit on the age at which a person is able to have the ability to make definitive decisions about any aspect of these things?

You’d hardly call a three year old child a Platonist or a Replublican or a Hindu. Well, lots of people refer to Hindu children, but isn’t that as ridiculous as a Republican toddler?

I don’t see much of a problem teaching your own children aspects of life with which you personally prescribe. We all do it. But at what age is it valid to call that child a Republican, or a Platonist, or a Hindu. Or…what was the other belief I was thinking of?

There have been enough arguments saying one needs a world view to come to these sorts of decisions. An ability to think without bias (but at the same time, it seems, to embrace the concept that you are trying to decipher).

Personally speaking, after a reasonable amount of time spent on this planet, with an ability to string a coherent sentence together and construct an argument of sorts and listen to other views without resorting to violence, I sincerely doubt (and I mean I REALLY seriously doubt) that there are many people who ever reach that age.

Myself included.

I’ll let you know when I get there.
You raise an interesting question about age and maturity.

Most of the well known atheists in modern times, if I am not mistaken, declared themselves to be atheists in their mid to late teens. It seems to be a period of rebellion, and who more impressive to rebel against than the great Father?

What interests me too is the old age factor, where some lifelong atheists suddenly turn to God. I think for example of Jean Paul Sartre and Antony Flew. In those two cases would Pascal’s Wager be operative?

My grandfather and one of my uncles, both atheists, turned to God at the end.

It seems that for all the bold talk of some atheists about how shallow Pascal became, Pascal’s syndrome kicks in quite often in old age, not to mention premature death cases where the atheist has a chance to meditate on whether he has everything to gain and nothing to lose by focusing more intimately and sincerely on the great Father.
 
It may have to do with “Pascal’s Syndrome”, but I would wager on a realization of the preciousness of life. What an amazing trip it’s been, the miracle of personal existence. As CS Lewis remarked, you want to find out where all the beauty comes from.
 
We cannot see our mind, cannot hear our mind, cannot feel our mind and if you were logical you would confine “your beliefs” to material objects because in “your scheme” of things there is nothing else! Mindless molecules know precisely nothing…
It is fitting that mindless molecules finish up by saying nothing. As Lear said, “nothing shall come of nothing”.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of nothing because for the logical atheist there is no such thing as evidence! You can’t get anything for nothing. Absurdity reigns supreme and we should all be reduced to impotent silence when confronted with the silence of eternity. A fitting conclusion to the thread. :clapping:

In Shakespeare’ s great play Hamlet says “The rest is silence” just before he dies but he had previously made two telling remarks:

“There’s a divinity that shapes our ends,
Rough-hew them how we will.”

“We defy augury; there’s a special providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all.”

And believers would echo his friend’s words:

“Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince;
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.”
 
I guess, it is time to wrap it up. Not one of you could present an evidence which can be verified. It is all hearsay.
Time for your victory dance, I suppose. :rolleyes:

The word “evidence” is beginning to sound like your mantra. Repeated like an incantation ad nauseam to ward off intrusive or threatening ideas.

Again, the point is that evidence is not sufficient because it does not explain anything, it only supports or corroborates a pre-existing explanation and any true explanation has a determinable price: sufficiency.

Evidence is merely loose change and that is all that it can ever amount to. Ever try to cash in a mountain of loose change? You will get funny looks.

So what can you offer that is explanatory of why there is something rather than nothing? Or what is it that explains all these contingent things in the evidential world when none of them completely explain anything at all?

Spare us the :twocents:

Got anything worthy of consideration that has real and lasting value? A reality that provides something like a “gold standard” by which the loose change you keep begging for might have some value? Something which tells us with some degree of certainty whether your :twocents: is merely a wooden or plugged nickel rather than actually having some worth?
 
Shakespeare was not negative about life like his character Macbeth who described life as “A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”.

In King Lear Edgar remarks:

" What, in ill thoughts again? Men must endure
Their going hence, even as their coming hither: Ripeness is all."
 
You spent seventy years in the field of education? :bigyikes:

You have my sympathies.
This whole life is education. Your sympathy is misplaced.
I guess you know the final verification is post hoc.

Some of us hope. Others are hopeless. 🤷
Why do you need hope? Can’t you just invoke the “majority is always right” principle and declare that there is “some kind” of afterlife, since the majority believes that there is one. Of course, as for what kind of afterlife it will be, the Christians are hopelessly outnumbered, so your “VOTE”-based solution does not really work as intended… or “HOPED FOR”.

However, the fact remains. I asked for evidence, and got nothing. Not interested in some “final” verification, since by that time it will be too late - or so the teaching goes. Verification, whatever form it takes, is only useful if one can learn from the result, and change accordingly.
 
You’d hardly call a three year old child a Platonist or a Replublican or a Hindu. Well, lots of people refer to Hindu children, but isn’t that as ridiculous as a Republican toddler?
Republican toddler? Yes, absolutely ridiculous.

Catholic toddler? Yes, absolutely true.
 
Time for your victory dance, I suppose. :rolleyes:
Actually, I am somewhat disappointed (not much, of course, because the outcome was not unexpected). I was hoping for something what would substantiate that you are right and I am wrong. Maybe you view these exchanges as a contest and you want to “win”. I don’t. I view them as part of my ongoing education… for which you offered your “sympathy”. Every time I read these posts I learn something. Very educational.
Again, the point is that evidence is not sufficient because it does not explain anything, it only supports or corroborates a pre-existing explanation and any true explanation has a determinable price: sufficiency.
Evidence “merely” supports (or contradicts) a hypothesis. The hypothesis is supposed to have explanatory value. Without evidence there is no reason to accept any proffered “explanation”.
So what can you offer that is explanatory of why there is something rather than nothing? Or what is it that explains all these contingent things in the evidential world when none of them completely explain anything at all?
Sure I can. You know there is this huge turtle, which supports our world. It stands on the back of another turtle… which in turn is supported by another one… and it is turtles all the way down. Such a simple and beautiful explanation… You want “evidence” for that? Why? Evidence does not “explain” anything.
 
Republican toddler? Yes, absolutely ridiculous.

Catholic toddler? Yes, absolutely true.
Ah, this bring back a wonderful joke.

A couple reads an ad in the paper: “Catholic puppies are for sale”. They contemplate for a few days, and then go to the address and declare that they would like to by one of those Catholic puppies. The seller says: “I am sorry, but I only have atheist puppies”. The buyers are upset: “But you advertised Catholic puppies!”. Yes, says the seller, but in the meantime their eyes opened!

😃
 
Why do you need hope?

However, the fact remains. I asked for evidence, and got nothing. Not interested in some “final” verification, since by that time it will be too late - or so the teaching goes. Verification, whatever form it takes, is only useful if one can learn from the result, and change accordingly.
Tell me why you don’t need hope.

Tell me why a soul that is greater than the universe (because it can understand the universe, whereas the universe cannot understand itself) must perish with the body. Why does that make perfectly good sense to you? Lack of evidence? Where is your evidence that virtually the entire human race has been busy deluding itself about the immortal soul for the last few thousands of years? Have you died and risen again to tell us you found nothing on the other side? That is the only imaginable evidence, and unimaginably absurd at that. 🤷

Tell me why you never believe anything unless you have 100% proof that it’s true. Tell me why you are as infallible about the fate of your immortal soul as the Pope and I am about the judgment that lies ahead? Is it fear of the judgment, fear of the Judge? Is that why you deny even the possibility of having to stand in the dock before the Judge? You do deny even the possibility, don’t you? :confused:

Is it true in your mind that the minority (because you are in the minority) must always be right and the majority of mankind (convinced that life goes on in one form or another) must always be wrong?
 
Ah, this bring back a wonderful joke.

A couple reads an ad in the paper: “Catholic puppies are for sale”. They contemplate for a few days, and then go to the address and declare that they would like to by one of those Catholic puppies. The seller says: “I am sorry, but I only have atheist puppies”. The buyers are upset: “But you advertised Catholic puppies!”. Yes, says the seller, but in the meantime their eyes opened!

😃
Finish the quotation marks? :rolleyes:

“Yes,” says the seller, “but in the meantime their eyes opened!”

Not such a wonderful joke.

“I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God, and naturally I hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.” --Thomas Nagel
 
Sure I can. You know there is this huge turtle, which supports our world. It stands on the back of another turtle… which in turn is supported by another one… and it is turtles all the way down. Such a simple and beautiful explanation… You want “evidence” for that? Why? Evidence does not “explain” anything.
I suppose if you find turtles “all the way down” to have explanatory sufficiency, then we have no reason to expect that you have the competency to assess how evidence could be of any value whatsoever.
 
“I want atheism to be true and am made uneasy by the fact that some of the most intelligent and well-informed people I know are religious believers. It isn’t just that I don’t believe in God, and naturally I hope that I’m right in my belief. It’s that I hope there is no God! I don’t want there to be a God; I don’t want the universe to be like that.” --Thomas Nagel
And I thought Nagel is a reasonable man because he regards life as valuable because it is a source of opportunities and, even more significantly, has been fiercely attacked because he rejects the hypothesis that intelligence is produced by purposeless molecules in favour of what he calls “natural teleology” - although he remains an atheist, it seems, as the result of wishful thinking! I don’t believe he is unusual in that respect - which suggests a new thread “Why do some people prefer to be atheists?” 🙂
 
which suggests a new thread “Why do some people prefer to be atheists?” 🙂
Psychoanalyst Dr. Paul Vitz wrote a book titled *Faith of the Fatherless *in which he tries to answer precisely that question with respect to some of the most famous atheists in history.

Generally he sees it boiling down to a negative Father Complex.
 
However, the fact remains. I asked for evidence, and got nothing. Not interested in some “final” verification, since by that time it will be too late - or so the teaching goes. Verification, whatever form it takes, is only useful if one can learn from the result, and change accordingly.
Clearly, you misunderstand the nature of evidence.

The question to be asked is “Evidence for what?”

You might rephrase to: “Evidence for an afterlife.”

The clarifying question would then become “Afterlife of what?”

Will you insist on “biological body” as the “what” and restrict whatever evidence to be evidence of the afterlife of a particular biological body? Of course you will. So you have stacked the deck in your favour by refusing to entertain any possibility of an afterlife since you have defined what must live in order for you to find any evidence acceptable whatsoever: the current and temporal physical body. Clearly, that has died.

Christianity doesn’t claim your existing physical body will immediately be revived and live after it dies, yet that is the “afterlife” that you are restricting all evidence to. Again, you have stacked the deck.

To be clear, Christianity does not claim that every molecule of your current physical body will be revived immediately after you die. That would be YOUR insistence.

What Christianity claims is that those who so merit will receive a glorified body at some point – when, precisely, would depend upon a number of factors. Whether that body will be observable to flesh and blood witnesses is not the determining factor of whether having been endowed with a glorified body has occurred or not.

Jesus body was glorified three days after his death. There is evidence for that. The empty tomb. The witness of the Apostles and women. The responses of the Sanhedrin and Roman officials. The growth of Christianity. Heck, even the Shroud of Turin is evidence.

The real problem is your crippled understanding of what constitutes “evidence” to begin with.

Take it from a hardened LA detective who has worked with evidence all of his professional life…
Many people simply don’t understand the basic categories of evidence and mistakenly think prosecutors need a particular kind of evidence to be successful. As it turns out, evidence falls into one of two categories: direct and indirect. Direct evidence is simply eyewitness testimony. Indirect evidence (also known as circumstantial evidence) is everything else. When I say “everything else” I mean precisely that: everything has the potential to be considered as evidence. In the many years I’ve been making criminal cases in the State of California, I’ve presented physical objects, statements, behaviors and much more to make my case. Take a look at the variety of evidences typically presented in criminal jury trials:
Forensic physical evidence
Non-forensic physical evidence
Where the victim was attacked
Where the victim wasn’t attacked
Items discovered at the crime scene
Items missing from the crime scene
Words the suspect said
Words the suspect failed to say
Something the suspect did
Something the suspect failed to do
I could go on and on, but are you starting to see the pattern? Everything has the potential to be part of an evidential case, depending on the nature of the case under consideration. Sometimes the simplest detail (something you might not typically think of as evidence) can make the case. I’ve successfully investigated cases prosecuted with nothing more than statements. These cases didn’t possess a single piece of physical evidence, yet the juries came back with a guilty verdict in less than 4 hours.
When skeptics say the case for Christianity is weak because it can’t be built with scientific, testable, physical, forensic evidence, they simply don’t know how criminal cases are tried every day in America. Everything counts as evidence, including the behavior of the original witnesses, the testimony of those who listened to the statements of these witnesses, the touch-point corroborative evidence of archaeology, the internal confirmation of geography, politics and proper nouns, and the deficiency of alternative explanations. These forms of evidence (or something very similar) are used in criminal trials every day. If convictions were dependent on physical, forensic evidence, very few cases would ever be prosecuted. My cold-cases, for example, are entirely circumstantial and typically employ little or no forensic evidence. I’ve yet to lose one of these cases, because I’ve learned the answer to an important question: What qualifies as evidence? Everything.
 
The real problem is your crippled understanding of what constitutes “evidence” to begin with.
Men have been convicted of murder on purely circumstantial evidence, no smoking pistol.

For the atheist God and the soul are convicted of non-existence on no evidence whatever.
 
You raise an interesting question about age and maturity.

Most of the well known atheists in modern times, if I am not mistaken, declared themselves to be atheists in their mid to late teens. It seems to be a period of rebellion, and who more impressive to rebel against than the great Father?

What interests me too is the old age factor, where some lifelong atheists suddenly turn to God. I think for example of Jean Paul Sartre and Antony Flew. In those two cases would Pascal’s Wager be operative?

My grandfather and one of my uncles, both atheists, turned to God at the end.

It seems that for all the bold talk of some atheists about how shallow Pascal became, Pascal’s syndrome kicks in quite often in old age, not to mention premature death cases where the atheist has a chance to meditate on whether he has everything to gain and nothing to lose by focusing more intimately and sincerely on the great Father.
Good points. Especially about the age of rebellion. As a character in The Young Ones said when asked what he was rebelling against, the reply was: ‘Whaddya got?’

I’d think that the more well known atheists that we know certainly started to doubt at an early age. And that can quite possibly cloud your judgement as one gets older. No-one wants to admit that what they held to be true, as convinced as many young people are of certain positions, is wrong. We all have a tendancy to hold on to what we believe, despite the evidence.

I don’t think that I am any different to you, Charles, in that respect. The only difference might be, as I said before, either in this thread or another, that we are wired differently. I will call ‘Bull Dust!’ just as a challenge to my own beliefs, as well as to anyone else’s.
 
Where is your evidence that virtually the entire human race has been busy deluding itself about the immortal soul for the last few thousands of years?
You still try to appeal to the concept that majority can decide such questions?
Tell me why you never believe anything unless you have 100% proof that it’s true.
Please dig up the post where I said this. It is the rule of the board that such claims MUST be supported - by evidence, no less.
Tell me why you are as infallible about the fate of your immortal soul as the Pope and I am about the judgment that lies ahead?
When and where did I claim 100% infallibility? Quote, please. I asked for a method to find out if we have an immortal soul… got nothing.
Is it true in your mind that the minority (because you are in the minority) must always be right and the majority of mankind (convinced that life goes on in one form or another) must always be wrong?
Again, you must present a quote where I said that. No one has first dibs on being right. I explicitly asked for evidence and received nothing - not even an HONEST admission that there is no evidence.

And by the way, don’t confuse “proof” with “evidence”.
 
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