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tonyrey
Guest
Atheism is the dogmatic belief that** everything** is ultimately valueless yet that belief presupposes its own value! What is your view?
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Rhubarb
Guest
How do you figure that atheism commits someone to believe that everything is valueless?
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Bradski
Guest
Ah, but Tony said ultimately valueless. He seems unable to grasp that life for an atheist has value to that individual, but that individual generally considers that they live in an uncaring universe.
In a few generations no-one will remember Tony or myself. Life will drift on as if we never existed. Atheists have no problem with this fact, but it seems to frustrate Christians no end. I was going to say terrify them, but that would only be if they had some doubt in their belief.
Kinda funny. Christians will embrace the concept of eternal torment but will recoil in horror at the thought of an uncaring universe.
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You
Guest
I think it was a catholic monk 1500 years ago who said two weeks after death nobody will remember them. They used to spend part of their days digging their own graves, partly to remind them of their own mortality and partly to save the others the trouble.
I think catholics don’t fear death or worry at all about life or about death. Death is fine, its the beginning of Life. so I don’t understand what you mean, it has no resonance in catholicism.
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
In practice, “atheism” is usually a variation on agnosticism, as Rhubarb alludes.
Speaking purely personally I am not frustrated by the fact that I’ll not be remembered long or by many.
Attached as I am to my comforts as it stands, I don’t advocate sentimentality about the world or universe. I am always surprised when people - both religious and not - are so. It isn’t supported in Scriptures.
Speaking purely personally I am not frustrated by the fact that I’ll not be remembered long or by many.
Attached as I am to my comforts as it stands, I don’t advocate sentimentality about the world or universe. I am always surprised when people - both religious and not - are so. It isn’t supported in Scriptures.
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St_Francis
Guest
What bothers me is the illogic of the “uncaring universe” viewpoint (this way of putting it is not at all accurate, btw).
It bothers me that so many could believe something so illogical… which I did at one time, but I feel that I was tricked into it. I sympathize with those who are still tricked, and auestion the motives of the tricksters.
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seagal
Guest
Actually I find the concept of an uncaring universe an oxymoron. It implies that the universe is capable of caring but doesn’t, which is patently ridiculous. What I find really silly is people who “ask the universe” for something or “put something out to the universe”. It illustrates our innate human instinct to recognize a power higher than ourselves and to pray to that power, but at the same time absolutely refuses to name that power God.
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inocente
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You’ve confused atheism with nihilism bro.
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Bballer32
Guest
Interesting that you say this, but there is a particular reason for this.
As Christians, we believe a person is in Hell by their own choice (unless you are a Calvinist
), which makes it easier for us to except the idea of people damned to hell.An uncaring “universe” however is not an act of choice. For there to be no ultimate care would cause us to recoil, as it should anyone, because it means that at some points in our life we are not actually loved. And even atheists cannot deny the fact that everyone longs to be loved.
Wouldn’t you also recoil to come to find out that you are not loved?
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
Déjà vu.There was an expanded version of this question a few years back. Referring to it since I think it might illuminate to some your thoughts on this question.
Cheers!
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ThinkingSapien
Guest
There was a long discussion on hell back in April that included expressions of this viewpoint. Long story short as the elements of argument were spelled out agreement was not achieved (see thread:Fear of Hell).
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tonyrey
Guest
There would be no reason why we or anything exists. Values would become human conventions…
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Back2Church
Guest
Ever heard of the butterfly effect?
No matter how insignificant anyone’s life may seem, every person’s mere existence has made an impact on the world.
The Doctor (Doctor Who), when asking who someone was and receiving the answer of “I’m no one important”, said: “I’ve travelled through all of space and time, but I’ve never met anyone who wasn’t important.” (Quoting to the best of my memory.).
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tonyrey
Guest
is ultimately valueless yet that belief presupposes its own value! What is your view? Cheers! Déjà vu.There was an expanded version of this question a few years back. Referring to it since I think it might illuminate to some your thoughts on this question.
The typical atheist makes the following assumptions:
- Only the physical universe exists.
- The physical universe is purposeless.
- The physical universe is valueless.
- The physical universe is meaningless.
- The physical universe lacks consciousness.
- It can be proved that these assumptions are true.
- All purposeful, valuable, meaningful and conscious activity is ultimately activity that is purposeless, valueless, meaningless and lacks consciousness.Thank you for that and welcome back, TS. You have a very good memory.
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ThinkingSapien
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Welcome!
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Bballer32
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I will affirm you on your memory and ability to remember the threads!
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Della
Guest
I can’t agree that that is the basic premise of atheism. Rather, atheism proposes that value is limited, not eternal. Thus, life may have value, but only to those alive. The dead are simply dead. Their value to themselves and others has ended, except in what they may have contributed to others in their lifetime and their posterity.
My view is that atheism is blind to the totality of all that is. It presupposes that life is random and chaotic, thus it has no purpose beyond mere existence. This closes off many aspects of life which must be argued away as mere chemical reactions or delusions.
Its adherents have to ignore any evidence to the contrary. It’s a closed circle that demands that one not look beyond its boundaries.
It ultimately says individuals have no bonds to others except those which they find personally pleasing or which benefit them.
Adherents believe they are free from any eternal negative results of their actions since death ends life.
Conscience is mere social engineering and beliefs imposed rules with no meaning beyond the human need to live with one another peacefully enough to reproduce the species.
Others may find such a bleak belief system enthralling, but not I. I may be a northerner but even I find it too cold–too narcissistic, and too limiting.
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HabemusFrancis
Guest
It is indeed absurd. I tried atheism off and on during my college days and it was miserable 
. It just is so difficult to live without the Lord.
It is the oddest thing though. I find when I have a more active relationship with God, I have a better ability to discern what is wise and what is not. Not just the morality of actions/inactions but the very wisdom of being precoccupied with a certain problem/grievance, and whether it is such a wise thing to be aggrieved over or not.
The Jesus train is really a good trip :extrahappy:
. It just is so difficult to live without the Lord.It is the oddest thing though. I find when I have a more active relationship with God, I have a better ability to discern what is wise and what is not. Not just the morality of actions/inactions but the very wisdom of being precoccupied with a certain problem/grievance, and whether it is such a wise thing to be aggrieved over or not.
The Jesus train is really a good trip :extrahappy:
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Rhubarb
Guest
I’ll set aside reasons for existence, because that’s a whole other kettle of fish. Suffice it to say, I disagree that atheism commits one to believe there’s no reason for anything to exist.
What I do want to say is that if values are a human convention, then there are still values. Human beings have a remarkable way of instilling meaning into what otherwise would be meaningless. Sentimental value is a real and true thing. Whatever the underlying principles of reality (be them natural or supernatural), we assign value daily on things, people, actions, and etc. There are plenty of theories about value, morality, and reasons-for-existence that don’t rely on the existence of God. They’re perfectly coherent and consistent. (At least, as much as any philosophical theory can be) I don’t say this to defend Atheism - I’m not an atheist and I think that the atheist claim requires as much faith as the theist claim. I say this because the above quote needs much more fleshing out.
For instance, if there is no reason for anything to exist, why can there not be value? Why do you think that value-as-convention is not a proper value? If we find a reason for existence that doesn’t rely on God, does value still vanish? If value is merely human convention, what would be unwelcome consequences? I realize being a Catholic forum that many posters will grant the quote without question but I’d be interested in hearing some thoughts on what I posted above.
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Aloysium
Guest
The values to which people commit are varied.
Each of us, in our families, at work, citizens, criminals and terrorists, we all have our reasons to do what we do.
Each of us decides from what is given us, to become who we are.
That said, there is one purpose that is the same for all; and, that purpose is to be happy.
I will assert that for all the suffering that we encounter, real happiness, solid and true, comes with a love of life and one another.
It is to be found in God, who is Love.
The reason why there is something cannot be captured intellectually.
It is in our very being, to be found in prayer and meditation, in the smile of a new-born baby, in our lover’s eyes.
In that mystery, in the silence that thunders throughout creation, one discerns the Divine.
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