The accursed tree

[Godhead]

How can you come to a Catholic forum and call God a liar? I don’t mean to react in a bad way, but if you want to stay in this forum be careful with your words. A forum administrator might ban you for your words. Remember we are all guests here and we are supposed to respect each other and each other’s beliefs. Unless you didn’t read the rules before you signed up.

Calling God a liar is offensive not only to us but to Him! If someone speak badly of God, I take it in a bad way, it’s worse than an offense directed at me.

Why because I challenge God’s word? It is quite usual for a Christian to defend their faith in such a way. How dare you call God a liar. Why? Because I can see through the truth.
Grow up child. In debate you are going to have opinions that conflict with your beliefs. Isn’t that what this place is for, in Non-Catholic religions? Well, in my religion God is a liar. Now I want you to respect my belief. Grow up, Child.

 

[Godhead]

Godhead,

Can you tell me how you can believe in God and call Him a liar? If you believe in God, then you are accepting He created us. If you don’t believe in God, then you don’t accept He created us. It’s as simple and clear as that.

If you belive, you believe. Questioning is good, but every single time someone answers your questions you don’t even care to really see what they are telling you, why don’t you just stop for a minute and really read what they say so you can understand what’s being said to you?

Maybe you cannot since the devil is preventing you from it. Or should I say the snake?

No it’s as simple and as clear as this. I believe in God but I believe he is a LIAR. Don’t tell me what belief entails. You’re just making that stuff up.

 

[Keikiolu]

The serpent tempted Adam and Eve with knowledge. I really don’t understand you people. Could you help me understand your logic and reasoning? The serpent gave you knowledge between good and evil. What is so wrong with having knowledge between good and evil? Can you help me understand, I’m confused? I thought it was a good thing to have knowledge between good and evil; in that way we could choose good and see our mistakes. If having knowledge between good and evil is evil then I think it is good to be this sort of evil. Can someone please help me understand, what evil did the serpent commit by opening our eyes to good and evil?

Secondly, your God cursed the earth because someone ate a piece of fruit? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Can someone help me understand, the logic and reasoning behind these two subjects?

God wanted us to follow His plan (not doing what He commanded NOT to do), but He also gave us free will, which allowed us to choose Him, or elsewhat.

We chose elsewhat, because we were tempted into believing that God wasn’t, or couldn’t, provide what we want, when we want it.

The “knowledge” that the tree “contained” (in it’s fruit) was the knowledge that God CAN and WILL provide everything we need (though not necessarily what we “want”) IF ONLY we obey Him.

Now,… to have to DO SOMETHING other than simply taking God’s WORD for it, such as “eating of the fruit”, which means “finding SOME OTHER WAY of discovering the difference between good and evil OTHER THAN OBEYING GOD”, is a sin (an evil doing) and started the whole “thenceforth you are cursed” thing that we have to live with.

The fruit of the tree didn’t CONTAIN an explanation of the difference between good and evil. It was simply a “signal” to God that man had chosen to disobey Him.

In other words,… if the fruit of the tree was a fortune cookie, it’s message would read,

[SIGN]“You screwed up…! Looking here for what is only in God is a BIG Boo-Boo…!! Now 'ya gotta wait for Jesus to fix it. Have a nice day,… as best you can.”[/SIGN]

We actually DID have the actual knowledge of the difference between good and evil when we were in the garden.

We just hadn’t been presented with the CHOICE to try to “get around the un-get-aroundable” fact that everything is from God, even what we ALREADY HAVE (knowledge of the DIFFERENCE between good and evil).

Once we were given the choice,… we goofed.

The serpent simply encouraged our tendency to try to get around God, because the serpent is only interested in doing what he thinks makes God look silly by “corrupting” another of God’s creations (man).

That is why “scandalous behavior” (making it easier for others to do evil) is SO very condemned by the Church.

---

“I thought it was a good thing to have knowledge between good and evil; in that way we could choose good and see our mistakes.”***

---

We always HAD the knowledge of the difference between good and evil, so we could indeed always “see our mistakes”.

What we didn’t have, until the tree, was the choice to prove ourselves “sinful”.

Does that help?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Keikiolu]

I’m not looking at this in the wrong light. I know that the story of creation, genesis, is an allegory. Allegories use symbolic fictional characters and truth and generalizations to explain existence. I know it is an allegory. But do you, that is the ultimate question?

We (I) believe that it (the Magisterial knowledge including the Bible) is the truth.

You may think as you like.

If your belief is not wrong, why is my belief?

An allegory that has been faithenized to the point where it occurs in theologic thought as scientific fact–all of which berates truth to the point that no one can escape the serpent of the gardens grasp.

The Bible is NOT “scientific” fact. It is actual fact. It is not “scientific” information, but “theological” information, which contains much historical and physical information.

We can’t “escape” the serpent, because Adam/Eve have already “chosen” to listen to the serpent,… but even the serpent was “used” by God to allow man to have proof that man was a sinner (which God would have gracefully “ignored” if man hadn’t proved himself a fool).

The serpent’s light has you mezmorized. When an allegory achieves a faithinization to the point that this one has it becomes a fable. Fables are legends.

Even if it IS a “fable”, which I disgree with but that’s not pertinent here, does the “fable” do what fables do and help you understand something?

Allegories are supposed to explain existence, separating fact from the fiction–all done within the human intellect. This allegory has become the fictitious truth that flockherds believe is actual account of events. Do you see how this story berates (condemns) truth?

The story DOES explain something. It explains how it is that man is inherently a sinner, mostly (if not entirely) because of the free will given by God, which he misused and thereby proved himself in need of salvation.

The story explains, beautifully, a profound truth:

“He who has been given free will is given, by God (his creator), the choice of proving himself either a sinner or not (with lots of help from the serpent!), and the price of sin is “trouble” (death).”

Do you understand now?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[Rocky]

Godhead,

Why are you so angry at God?

 

[water]

what is your religion godhead?

 

[PaulDupre]

Godhead,
In this and the other threads you started, you have shown yourself, with your two-dimensional thinking and adolescent ranting, to be a child. I would guess you are about 15- or 16 years old and are just discovering the heady world of philosophy and rebellion.

Slow down a bit, my angry young man. Many of us have been exactly where you are now.

One of the problems you are having here is that you are making some faulty assumptions about the beliefs of a group of people that cover a wide spectrum of beliefs. Some Christians, like Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, take the bible story of the creation and the fall very literally. Others, like Catholics (of which I am one), are free to take the bible account of the garden (and the flood as well) literally or as sacred allegory that portrays an actual ontological event (as I do and as the late Pope John-Paul II did). Mainstream Protestants are all over the spectrum on these questions.

Your assumption that all Christians believe that the story of the garden is “scientific fact” or that the earth is only 6,000 years old is evidence of your youth and the narrow perspective that goes with it.

Hang out here and learn for a while. Ask questions rather than hurling insults. Maybe your world will get a bit larger in the process.

I’m not trying to insult you. When I was 16, I also thought that everything was simple and obvious and that I knew it all. I was amazed at how complicated things got and how ignorant I became by time I reached age 30.

God bless you,
Paul

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Actually, based on my arguments? What speaking simple to simpletons? That’s funny because I went to college for philosophy and writing.

Listen, a lite philosophy makes for the best kind of philosophy. Where points are not over-shadowed by deep critical thinking–endless, and useless garbage muddies up the water or the clarity of speech.

You are no philosophy major. Simply put, you are what you accuse God of being, a liar. I agree with Paul, you’re about 15, maybe a little younger. It is time for you to cool down and start discussing this like an adult, not a little child.

 

[ricmat]

The Tree…

Father Corapi refers to this whole incident as wanting to DEFINE good and evil, not just know about it.

Isn’t that what we all do to some extent or another. Redefine evil (e.g. abortion, NOT multiplying) as a good (saving humanity, or at least me from overpopulation). Etc.

God created the universe, including physical laws like gravity. Also intrinsically built into the fabric of the universe are moral laws, which God also created. Good and evil are based on these laws, not our own definitions.

And yes, Genesis is allegorical.

 

[Godhead]

I know you said you believed in God. Could you help us a bit by telling us what religion you are? That way we could see a better idea of what truly you believe.

Thanks!

Me. I have no religion. I believe in God; but I do not worship God. Why worship anything at all? Man cannot grasp this concept of believing in God but not following any worship. If anything, I do not call the Virgin Mary (however I do care for her beauty) my Mother. I am sort of on the fringes of thought–that I call the earth my Mother; as I know in truth that it is she who carries my soul in her womb. When I die is when my Mother Earth will give release to my soul.

I do not worship these things but I consider the celestial as the true parents or sustainers of life. Unlike the old world religions where they gave deification to the sun and moon and earth. I use them to emphasize balance between forces. The sun, moon and earth not being a deity but an inert (for lack of a better word) force rather than a deity. If that makes sense. I do not worship these celestial objects as in deification worship. I’m trying to find the correct word. There really is no antonyms for deity except the closest word I can come to is element. I don’t worship elements. I think about them. Reflect upon them. Earth, wind, water and fire. Elements are forces of creation that work upon eachother to form existence, to create the whole of existence.

Some evidence of element worship can be found right in scripture. Jesus says one must be born of water and spirit. The focus I would place is upon the water. To try to grasp the purity of water. Fire is another element found in scripture. What is the nature of fire? Air is also another element found in scripture. What is the power that we have over air? Our prayers are carried through the wind. And earth. The flesh is born of earth. I find these elements more relevant to my experience than I do a triune God.

 

[rbarcia]

Listen, I believe in God, however, I am adamant in my belief that God is a LIAR.

Listen, this whole mess started because someone ate a piece of stupid fruit. It begins with a serpent. Therfore, after the fact, the serpent is the cause of the rest of the scripture. It is, metaphorically speaking, serpent light and I am not mezmorized by it. I’m not buying it God. I’m just not buying it.

Have you ever told a lie?

 

[Godhead]

Greetings and peace be with you Godhead;

I think it would be less than honest to say that science has the answer as to how life started from no life.

I think it would be less than honest to claim that science has the proof as to how the very first particles of the universe came into being.

You may have some limited evidence, theories, arguements or beliefs as to how this happened, but you do not have proof.

In the spirit of searching for answers

Eric

I know how life started. The flesh came to be because of the spirit. It’s not speculation. It’s the truth.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

… I find these elements more relevant to my experience than I do a triune God.

and God created these elements you consider.

these elements do not deal with issues like sin

so they are much easier to deal with than God is

 

[water]

Me. I have no religion. I believe in God; but I do not worship God. Why worship anything at all? Man cannot grasp this concept of believing in God but not following any worship. If anything, I do not call the Virgin Mary (however I do care for her beauty) my Mother. I am sort of on the fringes of thought–that I call the earth my Mother; as I know in truth that it is she who carries my soul in her womb. When I die is when my Mother Earth will give release to my soul.

I do not worship these things but I consider the celestial as the true parents or sustainers of life. Unlike the old world religions where they gave deification to the sun and moon and earth. I use them to emphasize balance between forces. The sun, moon and earth not being a deity but an inert (for lack of a better word) force rather than a deity. If that makes sense. I do not worship these celestial objects as in deification worship. I’m trying to find the correct word. There really is no antonyms for deity except the closest word I can come to is element. I don’t worship elements. I think about them. Reflect upon them. Earth, wind, water and fire. Elements are forces of creation that work upon eachother to form existence, to create the whole of existence.

Some evidence of element worship can be found right in scripture. Jesus says one must be born of water and spirit. The focus I would place is upon the water. To try to grasp the purity of water. Fire is another element found in scripture. What is the nature of fire? Air is also another element found in scripture. What is the power that we have over air? Our prayers are carried through the wind. And earth. The flesh is born of earth. I find these elements more relevant to my experience than I do a triune God.

Godhead,

Thanks a lot for taking your time to explain further what you believe. It will take me awhile to read your post and to think about why you believe the way you believe. This is because it is something that have never encountered in my life. I only know those who either know some god and worship that god or they don’t believe in any god at all.

In your case, you believe there is a god yet you do not worship Him. This puzzles me that I have to ask you further, who is your God? and how you define a god?

Right now, I am thinking we both are talking about two different gods. The God I believe is the Creator of the universe. Jesus is God.

 

[Godhead]

God wanted us to follow His plan (not doing what He commanded NOT to do), but He also gave us free will, which allowed us to choose Him, or elsewhat.

We chose elsewhat, because we were tempted into believing that God wasn’t, or couldn’t, provide what we want, when we want it.

The “knowledge” that the tree “contained” (in it’s fruit) was the knowledge that God CAN and WILL provide everything we need (though not necessarily what we “want”) IF ONLY we obey Him.

Now,… to have to DO SOMETHING other than simply taking God’s WORD for it, such as “eating of the fruit”, which means “finding SOME OTHER WAY of discovering the difference between good and evil OTHER THAN OBEYING GOD”, is a sin (an evil doing) and started the whole “thenceforth you are cursed” thing that we have to live with.

The fruit of the tree didn’t CONTAIN an explanation of the difference between good and evil. It was simply a “signal” to God that man had chosen to disobey Him.

In other words,… if the fruit of the tree was a fortune cookie, it’s message would read,

[SIGN]“You screwed up…! Looking here for what is only in God is a BIG Boo-Boo…!! Now 'ya gotta wait for Jesus to fix it. Have a nice day,… as best you can.”[/SIGN]

We actually DID have the actual knowledge of the difference between good and evil when we were in the garden.

We just hadn’t been presented with the CHOICE to try to “get around the un-get-aroundable” fact that everything is from God, even what we ALREADY HAVE (knowledge of the DIFFERENCE between good and evil).

Once we were given the choice,… we goofed.

The serpent simply encouraged our tendency to try to get around God, because the serpent is only interested in doing what he thinks makes God look silly by “corrupting” another of God’s creations (man).

That is why “scandalous behavior” (making it easier for others to do evil) is SO very condemned by the Church.

---

“I thought it was a good thing to have knowledge between good and evil; in that way we could choose good and see our mistakes.”***

---

We always HAD the knowledge of the difference between good and evil, so we could indeed always “see our mistakes”.

What we didn’t have, until the tree, was the choice to prove ourselves “sinful”.

Does that help?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

The serpents light has you mezmorized. There really was no forbidden tree in the midst of any garden. Adam and Eve were not real people. If you knew anything about historical accuracy of biblical scripture then you would know that Adam used to be male human being and Eve used to be female human being. Adam and Eve were added afterwards. The story of creation is an allegory. In allegory we use symbolic fictional characters and truth and generalizations to explain existence. I’m sorry to tell you that there was no Adam and no Eve. In Hebrew, the original root of the word Adam meant man. And the feminine Adam meant woman. Little known fact. They were not actual people.

To examine this allegory further, anyone who knows anything knows that the serpent has always been the embodiment of wisdom. The serpent symbolized wisdom. Wisdom opened man and woman’s eyes to the knowledge between good and evil. Wisdom, not an actual serpent gave man this knowledge.

We can really twist this story around. By saying even though God commanded man not to eat from the tree. Man came across wisdom and wisdom opened his eyes. There really was no piece of fruit, guys. It’s a freaking allegory. An allegory is not an actual account of events.

Man did not actually disobey God because God told him not to eat from the tree of knowledge. But rather man came across wisdom which inevitably opened his eyes to good and evil. God did not tell man to not seek wisdom. Are you telling me that God did not know that wisdom would lead to this knowledge?

Once you learn to adore the serpent that God created you can move on. But until that point when you get it out of your heads that the serpent was not actually the devil, you can do nothing.

 

[PaulDupre]

Godhead:

Me. I have no religion. I believe in God; but I do not worship God. Why worship anything at all? Man cannot grasp this concept of believing in God but not following any worship. If anything, I do not call the Virgin Mary (however I do care for her beauty) my Mother. I am sort of on the fringes of thought–that I call the earth my Mother; as I know in truth that it is she who carries my soul in her womb. When I die is when my Mother Earth will give release to my soul.

I do not worship these things but I consider the celestial as the true parents or sustainers of life. Unlike the old world religions where they gave deification to the sun and moon and earth. I use them to emphasize balance between forces. The sun, moon and earth not being a deity but an inert (for lack of a better word) force rather than a deity. If that makes sense. I do not worship these celestial objects as in deification worship. I’m trying to find the correct word. There really is no antonyms for deity except the closest word I can come to is element. I don’t worship elements. I think about them. Reflect upon them. Earth, wind, water and fire. Elements are forces of creation that work upon eachother to form existence, to create the whole of existence.

Some evidence of element worship can be found right in scripture. Jesus says one must be born of water and spirit. The focus I would place is upon the water. To try to grasp the purity of water. Fire is another element found in scripture. What is the nature of fire? Air is also another element found in scripture. What is the power that we have over air? Our prayers are carried through the wind. And earth. The flesh is born of earth. I find these elements more relevant to my experience than I do a triune God.

Good job, Godhead. When you are explaining your point without insulting people you are really quite erudite. I understand your point of view, having been through my own period of nature worship while I was searching for meaning and truth, as you are now.

We Catholics understand your observations somewhat differently. We see the glory of nature, and the perfect and grand systems of which it is composed, as a glimpse into the mind of God. In the New Testament, St. Paul taught that even the heathens were without excuse in denying God, because the evidence of His glory and His love was all around them in nature.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse - Romans 1:20

The key for me was reading the biography of Sir Isaac Newton when I was about 20 years old. He (like all the great Christian scientists) believed fervently that to unlock the mysteries of science was to know the mind of God.

One last thing - you asked “Why worship anything at all?”. We worship because it is our first and best duty to worship our creator. After all, He gave us life and all that we need to sustain life (the sun and the earth and the air and all of the other things you rightly mentioned). But why does God want us to worship Him? It’s not like He needs it. He needs us like a hole in the head! But he wants us to experience the joy of knowing, loving and serving Him in this life and sharing His joy, power and perfect love in the next life.

God love you,
Paul

 

[Godhead]

Godhead,

Thanks a lot for taking your time to explain further what you believe. It will take me awhile to read your post and to think about why you believe the way you believe. This is because it is something that have never encountered in my life. I only know those who either know some god and worship that god or they don’t believe in any god at all.

In your case, you believe there is a god yet you do not worship Him. This puzzles me that I have to ask you further, who is your God? and how you define a god?

Right now, I am thinking we both are talking about two different gods. The God I believe is the Creator of the universe. Jesus is God.

Where there are three gods they are divine. I however do not worship them. Do I know they exist? Yes, I do.

 

[PaulDupre]

I know how life started. The flesh came to be because of the spirit. It’s not speculation. It’s the truth.

Right. Genesis says that “the spirit of God moved upon the waters” and caused life and everything else to happen. Hidden in all that allegory are these terrific nuggets of truth. Cool, huh?

God love you,
Paul

 

[Godhead]

and God created these elements you consider.

these elements do not deal with issues like sin

so they are much easier to deal with than God is

I deal with my sin. I just will judge the way I want to judge and measure the way I want to measure. This is my judgement. I was born without knowledge. I am entitled to mistakes or what you call sin. Once I realize that I have committed sin, I gain knowledge. Therefore, I can change. I will NOT be held accountable to any God for my mistakes or sins. I was born without knowledge.

 

[Godhead]

Right. Genesis says that “the spirit of God moved upon the waters” and caused life and everything else to happen. Hidden in all that allegory are these terrific nuggets of truth. Cool, huh?

God love you,
Paul

yea, I realize that. That’s how I came to it.